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Here we go again...

I swear, if you want to know what the relationship between the Astartes and the Sororitas is, just look at Melissia and Brother Haraldus. If you two weren't halfway across the world, I'd swear you really were siblings.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Here we go again...

I swear, if you want to know what the relationship between the Astartes and the Sororitas is, just look at Melissia and Brother Haraldus. If you two weren't halfway across the world, I'd swear you really were siblings.

Sometimes I don't know myself if Melissia is serious or just trolling, but in the end, it doesn't really matter and I find our discussions enjoyable. I suppose this 'not-sure-if-trolling-but-I'll-bite' attitude is a healthy one, and I have yet to succumb to the corruption of actual flaming.

There are so many holes to poke in them posts. I love it.

If someone is your enemy and friend, then who is your enemy's enemy and is the enemy's enemy your friend?

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
You aren't helping him to find it when you bury that sentence in between all other kinds of stuff, though.

It was at the end of a post. That's not "between" anything, it was the conclusion of my argument this entire time.

 Melissia wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
You aren't helping him to find it when you bury that sentence in between all other kinds of stuff, though.

It was at the end of a post. That's not "between" anything, it was the conclusion of my argument this entire time.

At the end of a post, aye. In the middle of a massive pile of other posts. Like finding a Grot in a Space Hulk...

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
You aren't helping him to find it when you bury that sentence in between all other kinds of stuff, though.

It was at the end of a post. That's not "between" anything, it was the conclusion of my argument this entire time.

At the end of a post, aye. In the middle of a massive pile of other posts. Like finding a Grot in a Space Hulk...

Please, it's easy to find a grot in a space hulk, . There's only a few million of them.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Well, I'd imagine Sisters could barely sneak at all. They likely recieve 0 training in it (What's the point when you have Laud Hailers and stuff?), PA is supposedly noisy unless you are specialists like Raven Guard, and all this assumes SoB would ever want to sneak in the first place.

If a Battle Sister squad reach a squadron of renegade Armoured Sentinels with Plasma Cannons, for example (Or Autocannons, or whatever) Stormtroopers would more likely do the job better.

Sure, I'm not saying that the Sisters are superior in all areas. Just that, it's my view that they're the best overall when it comes to human soldiers.

One could view the scouting rule of the Dominions as stealth of a sort, but the fluff seems to just talk about how Dominions aggressively charge at the enemy to shoot them, so perhaps not.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
AoF and SoF are useful but does not make them 'pinnacle of human soldiery', the Imperium is too large has too much variety to make such a blanket assumption.

Wouldn't we have heard of any human forces that were unquestionably superior to both the SoB and Stormtroopers? Both of these groups are coming from the Schola, the place where the Imperium's best are trained. I don't know of any other human forces that go beyond that. But anyway, I would say that AoFs and SoFs put them on top because they're augmenting already top-tier training (AS codex notes that the Sisters are "trained to the peak of human ability").

 Troike wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Well, I'd imagine Sisters could barely sneak at all. They likely recieve 0 training in it (What's the point when you have Laud Hailers and stuff?), PA is supposedly noisy unless you are specialists like Raven Guard, and all this assumes SoB would ever want to sneak in the first place.

If a Battle Sister squad reach a squadron of renegade Armoured Sentinels with Plasma Cannons, for example (Or Autocannons, or whatever) Stormtroopers would more likely do the job better.

Sure, I'm not saying that the Sisters are superior in all areas. Just that, it's my view that they're the best overall when it comes to human soldiers.

One could view the scouting rule of the Dominions as stealth of a sort, but the fluff seems to just talk about how Dominions aggressively charge at the enemy to shoot them, so perhaps not.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
AoF and SoF are useful but does not make them 'pinnacle of human soldiery', the Imperium is too large has too much variety to make such a blanket assumption.

Wouldn't we have heard of any human forces that were unquestionably superior to both the SoB and Stormtroopers? Both of these groups are coming from the Schola, the place where the Imperium's best are trained. I don't know of any other human forces that go beyond that. But anyway, I would say that AoFs and SoFs put them on top because they're augmenting already top-tier training (AS codex notes that the Sisters are "trained to the peak of human ability").

The whole thing about who is the 'best human soldiers' is not a big deal anyway to me. ^^ I'll happily concede the point.

I can't see how a female Astertes would be anything like a modern female weightlifter. If male Space marines are turned into large hulking beings compared to a normal human male, then females would logically follow the same comparison when compared to a normal human female. They would be just as much a caricature of the human body

Of course they wouldn't; realistically, weightlifters make for horrible soldiers.

It's true, actual good soldiers are people that are athletic enough to work hard manual labor for 20 hours a day and then hike 50 miles the next. Physical Fitness is infinitely more important than raw strength in fighting a war. Which means that the ridiculous hulking caricatures that are the marines are probably not much more effective than the Sisters anyways. I'd be willing to bet that with access to the Black Carapace and Terminator Armor they'd be nearly indistinguishable, in spite of the nonsense augments that the Marines are implanted with.

 Paimon wrote:
It's true, actual good soldiers are people that are athletic enough to work hard manual labor for 20 hours a day and then hike 50 miles the next. Physical Fitness is infinitely more important than raw strength in fighting a war. Which means that the ridiculous hulking caricatures that are the marines are probably not much more effective than the Sisters anyways. I'd be willing to bet that with access to the Black Carapace and Terminator Armor they'd be nearly indistinguishable, in spite of the nonsense augments that the Marines are implanted with.

To be fair, strength is more important for Marines than for today's soldiers. 40K is science fantasy, hence it ends up in melee quite often, where strength is very useful especially when you are tough (And armoured) enough to actually shrug off close range small arms fire.

Supposedly the +1 strength that the Marines have is from their augments rather than their suits, but that seems like obvious propaganda to me. If anyone could be as strong as a marine with power armor, the Marines wouldn't seem as special, so they probably fib quite a bit with regards to what they are capable of compared with their suits. Even regular power armor adds some strength, just not enough to bump up the number to whatever arbitrary difference between 3 and 4 is.

True. Modern soldiers would need more body strength if they were regularly needed to use chainswords, or the other actions that represent 40K close combat. Power armor probably doesn't need to work as hard if it isn't amplifying body strength as much, or maybe even actually works better in such circumstances, if any reality at all can be applied to 40K physics (which is to say not much).

Given the lightweight future materials that the weapons are made out of, I'd be surprised if chainswords were much heavier than regular swords, and, balanced at the hilt, with power assisted cutting, they probably wouldn't need as much strength as a knight of old would have required trying to pierce plate.

 Paimon wrote:
Given the lightweight future materials that the weapons are made out of, I'd be surprised if chainswords were much heavier than regular swords, and, balanced at the hilt, with power assisted cutting, they probably wouldn't need as much strength as a knight of old would have required trying to pierce plate.

Considering that knights of old never pierced plate in general, and aimed at the weaker sections in between. That didn't matter unless they were using mauls or the various 'hammer/mace' sort of style weapon (Which directed weapon impact through the armor).

However considering that trying to cut through an Ork Nob or some serious Necron Necrodemis, which WOULD be like cutting through plate...

The strength also reduces the effect of the massive Astartes Bolter's kickback, and allows them to aim better despite its weight.

Yeah yeah, they actually whacked at each other until one could knock the other over and stab them in the eye. Or the smashed joints with maces so that the limb couldn't move right with the armor all bent up, or they used the dull part of the blade as a handle to spread their hands apart and use the sword as a spike to attack seams in the plate.

The point was armor was so much better than weapons that for a while combat was rather strength intensive, though more about endurance.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
The strength also reduces the effect of the massive Astartes Bolter's kickback

Whether or not that even exists is not really confirmed.

Aren't bolters like RL , they Fire a shot the bolt aka mini rocket gets ejected by a small charge and then its main power drive kicks in ?

 Paimon wrote:
Supposedly the +1 strength that the Marines have is from their augments rather than their suits, but that seems like obvious propaganda to me.

Scouts have S4 too so it's not propaganda, it's pretty much fact.

So does an ogryn and its arm is the size of a scouts torso.
Hive Warriors are str 4 and in fluff they turn over tanks .

Makumba wrote:
So does an ogryn and its arm is the size of a scouts torso.
Hive Warriors are str 4 and in fluff they turn over tanks .

Ogyrn are S5 without furious charge. S6 with.

They are also T5 with 3 base attacks. Needless to say where Nork actually carried a Chimera full of medicine to save his commander isn't so farfetched.

Also it's not that hard to turn over tanks, if what I seen is true half the time, people have lifted cars under extreme duress (Though the muscles ripped after).

You made me check ogryns . In my codex they are str 4 base.

Makumba wrote:
You made me check ogryns . In my codex they are str 4 base.

..In what codex? Even in 4th they were S5 (not T5 though).

This is the Imperial Guard Codex right?

 Melissia wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
The strength also reduces the effect of the massive Astartes Bolter's kickback

Whether or not that even exists is not really confirmed.

Well... It's mostly sourced to things like Dark Heresy. The thing with RPGs is that some accept them and some not and it can get rather messy rather fast.

But I reason that they use bigger weapons because, they themselves and their armour are bigger than Sororitas, and it would be sort of a waste if their ranged damage output was equal (Other than the difference in marksmanship skills, and stronger hands & arms making a more stable firing platform) when Astartes are physically capable of carrying bigger guns? It'd be sorta like putting a Heavy Stubber as the turret weapon of a Leman Russ, as a (admittedly somewhat hyperbolic) comparison. Sure, they survive enemy fire better and get better damage output that way, but still.

But then, that is just my own reason and there is no real official fluff that clarifies it to be one way or another.

I think there may be some fluff that talks about the armour and/or weapons of SoB and Marines being equal... But that fluff is so old so I am taking it with a pinch of salt.

Oh, and Ogryns are S5.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Makumba wrote:
You made me check ogryns . In my codex they are str 4 base.

..In what codex? Even in 4th they were S5 (not T5 though).

This is the Imperial Guard Codex right?

Just confirming, Ogryn are S5 in the latest IG dex.

Oh, and Ogryns are S5.

Yep, also of note since Ogryns do have females.

Let's get some on in there. Ogryn females for equality there, I mean they grew up in the same settings, they should be about right when it comes to bashing skulls in for the Emperor.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

I think there may be some fluff that talks about the armour and/or weapons of SoB and Marines being equal... But that fluff is so old so I am taking it with a pinch of salt.

Oh, and Ogryns are S5.

It's in the Sisters' codex.

Also, I just had that argument on the Bolter and Chainsword last week, and it pretty much devolved into me giving sources and citations, and the Marine fanboys telling me I was attacking them personally and that Marines had better stuff and had to win the argument because it was the B&C.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Oh, and Ogryns are S5.

Yep, also of note since Ogryns do have females.

Let's get some on in there. Ogryn females for equality there, I mean they grew up in the same settings, they should be about right when it comes to bashing skulls in for the Emperor.

Ogryns are about as human as Astartes too, so it even has relevance.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

I think there may be some fluff that talks about the armour and/or weapons of SoB and Marines being equal... But that fluff is so old so I am taking it with a pinch of salt.

Oh, and Ogryns are S5.

It's in the Sisters' codex.

Also, I just had that argument on the Bolter and Chainsword last week, and it pretty much devolved into me giving sources and citations, and the Marine fanboys telling me I was attacking them personally and that Marines had better stuff and had to win the argument because it was the B&C.

Ehm... Flamebait anecdote?

And fair enough... I do not have the SoB codex, but then, I suspect it might a bit of codex bias having sneaked its way in there.

But then, GW has a tendency of shattering logic with a quick quote like that.

...All praise the headcanon.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:


...All praise the headcanon.

The only way Marines could get any more silly? :p