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 extremefreak17 wrote:

 OldSkoolGoff wrote:
At the risk of getting yelled at. Do any of the people who think you can't use WoD on invisible units think you SHOULDN'T be able to do it? It seems to be a good way of balancing the preponderance of invisible units and another excuse to put more flamers on the table. Everyone loves flamers.

Hard to say really. Invis is pretty strong for sure. However, it is not reliable to base a strategy around it due to random power generation, and the increased difficulty in casting successfully in 7th edition. Most of the top tourney armnies dont bother with it.

Two level 3 Psykers (or 1 a single L3 with rerolls like Tigurious ) gets (5/6)^6 =.33 chance to NOT get it. So you can have a 67% chance TO get it for less than 200 points. An Eldar Spirit Seer (5xL2 Psykers) can also pretty much guarantee it for 350. The top tier tournament players may not take it, but I think that's because they face a more diverse potential pool of opponents with the same list than you see in a local shop game where someone generally knows which army they'll be facing since most players only have an army or two. I tend to take the same 1 vindi 2 TFC list, occasionally swapping the extra TFC for another vindi.

When the strength of a power is mitigated mostly by randomness in building around it, anything that reduces that randomness really buffs the power disproportionately. I think Orks will be interesting when they get more practice on the field. "Da FInkin' Kap" gives you an additional warlord trait. Battle forged gives you a reroll. That gives you 4 chances to pick up infiltration+outflank for 3 units, which is better than 50-50 odds. That same table has a number of other good options (Stealth ruins w/move through cover, reserve manip), and really only has 1 which is weak. Even 90 infiltrating/outflanking slugga boys is super effective tool against most armies. Given that since the infantry unit gets the rule and the rule conveys to the DT, you can also run triple Meganobz in battlewagons if that rocks your boat. Either way you have a high likelihood of being in CC T2 after infiltrating, or T3 without being exposed to fire in T1.

RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:

 extremefreak17 wrote:

 OldSkoolGoff wrote:
At the risk of getting yelled at. Do any of the people who think you can't use WoD on invisible units think you SHOULDN'T be able to do it? It seems to be a good way of balancing the preponderance of invisible units and another excuse to put more flamers on the table. Everyone loves flamers.

Hard to say really. Invis is pretty strong for sure. However, it is not reliable to base a strategy around it due to random power generation, and the increased difficulty in casting successfully in 7th edition. Most of the top tourney armnies dont bother with it.

Two level 3 Psykers (or 1 a single L3 with rerolls like Tigurious ) gets (5/6)^6 =.33 chance to NOT get it. So you can have a 67% chance TO get it for less than 200 points. An Eldar Spirit Seer (5xL2 Psykers) can also pretty much guarantee it for 350. The top tier tournament players may not take it, but I think that's because they face a more diverse potential pool of opponents with the same list than you see in a local shop game where someone generally knows which army they'll be facing since most players only have an army or two. I tend to take the same 1 vindi 2 TFC list, occasionally swapping the extra TFC for another vindi.

When the strength of a power is mitigated mostly by randomness in building around it, anything that reduces that randomness really buffs the power disproportionately. I think Orks will be interesting when they get more practice on the field. "Da FInkin' Kap" gives you an additional warlord trait. Battle forged gives you a reroll. That gives you 4 chances to pick up infiltration+outflank for 3 units, which is better than 50-50 odds. That same table has a number of other good options (Stealth ruins w/move through cover, reserve manip), and really only has 1 which is weak. Even 90 infiltrating/outflanking slugga boys is super effective tool against most armies. Given that since the infantry unit gets the rule and the rule conveys to the DT, you can also run triple Meganobz in battlewagons if that rocks your boat. Either way you have a high likelihood of being in CC T2 after infiltrating, or T3 without being exposed to fire in T1.

Generating the power is the easy part. Actually casting it can be difficult.

There's a whole load of variables to take into consideration with possible match ups and opponents warp charges etc to get actual statistic data. But yes, getting the power you want, casting the power you want (& avoiding perils) when you want it and not being denied all boil down to low probability without stacking more and more points, you'll probably want double that to have a better chance of casting 1 power on 1 unit for the 1 turn you want so it can take down 1 other unit.

Basically, its not very economical in terms of strategy, its not consistent and to make it viable you have to put a lot of points into it, for the points needed, you could just take a unit to shoot down the threat that has a much better statistical chance of doing so.

Powers are great, but much luck is involved. you can get lucky and it's amazing, or you can get unlucky and lose horribly.

I play Nids and from 6>7th I saw myself taking far more warp charges and getting much less success on actually landing any powers. It's why Deamon summoning factories are not actually as good as everyone thought they were. Hitting a lucky streak they seem bad, but when they draw on their probabilities they can't produce enough meaningful units, the powers are much better used stomping me down than trying to get more.

RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:

 extremefreak17 wrote:

 OldSkoolGoff wrote:
At the risk of getting yelled at. Do any of the people who think you can't use WoD on invisible units think you SHOULDN'T be able to do it? It seems to be a good way of balancing the preponderance of invisible units and another excuse to put more flamers on the table. Everyone loves flamers.

Hard to say really. Invis is pretty strong for sure. However, it is not reliable to base a strategy around it due to random power generation, and the increased difficulty in casting successfully in 7th edition. Most of the top tourney armnies dont bother with it.

Two level 3 Psykers (or 1 a single L3 with rerolls like Tigurious ) gets (5/6)^6 =.33 chance to NOT get it. So you can have a 67% chance TO get it for less than 200 points. An Eldar Spirit Seer (5xL2 Psykers) can also pretty much guarantee it for 350. The top tier tournament players may not take it, but I think that's because they face a more diverse potential pool of opponents with the same list than you see in a local shop game where someone generally knows which army they'll be facing since most players only have an army or two. I tend to take the same 1 vindi 2 TFC list, occasionally swapping the extra TFC for another vindi.

When the strength of a power is mitigated mostly by randomness in building around it, anything that reduces that randomness really buffs the power disproportionately. I think Orks will be interesting when they get more practice on the field. "Da FInkin' Kap" gives you an additional warlord trait. Battle forged gives you a reroll. That gives you 4 chances to pick up infiltration+outflank for 3 units, which is better than 50-50 odds. That same table has a number of other good options (Stealth ruins w/move through cover, reserve manip), and really only has 1 which is weak. Even 90 infiltrating/outflanking slugga boys is super effective tool against most armies. Given that since the infantry unit gets the rule and the rule conveys to the DT, you can also run triple Meganobz in battlewagons if that rocks your boat. Either way you have a high likelihood of being in CC T2 after infiltrating, or T3 without being exposed to fire in T1.

Your numbers are wrong.

It's 50% for a single ML3 psyker, 75% for two.

And Tigurius is a special case, he gets 75% alone.

Either way the rest is correct, people who whine about Invisibility have no clue how many points it costs and how unreliable it is.



And for the discussion at hand, clearly invisibility supersedes overwatch, being less general.

Actually I believe no one got the probabilities right so far. Don't overdo the math! Randomly selecting 3 out of 6 powers you have 50% change of getting the one you want.

Supporting this with math:

P(not getting power X) = P(not getting it roll 1) * P(not getting it roll 2) * P(not getting it roll 3)
P(not getting power X) = (5/6) * (4/5) * (3/4) = 0.5

Adding a second lvl 3 or getting one with re-rolls will both square that number, so P(not getting power X) = 0.5^2 = 0.25 or 25% if you prefer.

My bad.

Dead thread I know but here.

2 1/2 years is a long time...

Perhaps best to bring this up somewhere more relevant?

Thanks!