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BF probably liked the game. People do take on projects because they like them since businesses are people.

Factual statements can be true, and yet still not include all the facts needed to form an opinion.

I recall someone posted part of a contract, which is suspicious as all heck because part of a contract is not worth a damn. And, even if it was the whole contract, there is no other paperwork to say whether Dust Studio or Battlefront has fulfilled any part of that contract. Likewise, the situation can take on more complications beyond the scope of the contract.

So again, still not enough information.

Something has obviously gone wrong here but none of us really have the info on what exactly happened.

 Vertrucio wrote:


Something has obviously gone wrong here but none of us really have the info on what exactly happened.

Which is a good reason to avoid both companies.

BF just needs to settle down and pay DS the money. After all, isn't DS worth less than a day of their FOW franchise? Also, the whole Paolo agreed to pay for the freebies but is backing out now kind of argument doesn't really cut it for me. If Paolo is the one reneging, why is DS the one chasing for a lawyer to try and settle this. Why are there no records showing who is going to pay for what? At the very least for a very substantial claim like 'DS is going to foot the cost for manufacturing the freebies', I would expect some paperwork to back it up. Not necessarily a contract but even some chain of emails or invoices would be more than enough to prove BFs position in court if this was true. And yet, DS is the one going for lawyers not BF. Wonder why.

Sining wrote:
', I would expect some paperwork to back it up. Not necessarily a contract but even some chain of emails or invoices would be more than enough to prove BFs position in court if this was true.

I'm not sure whose side to be on however regarding the above "Absence of evidence is not Evidence of absence" Especially when the ones who would have such evidence are the ones trying to do what any decent lawyer would tell them to do and save it for court.

Except they're not the ones initiating the civil suit. They're the ones who are pro-mediation, which hints they don't really have anything in black and white

Not necessarily, all it means is DS is looking to gain an advantage. They could be hoping to make BF surrender without going to court. They tried the public presure route and now are threatening a lawsuit. Being the first to file a lawsuit doesn't mean you will win the case or even have the truth on your side.

The only conclusion we can draw from what has happened so far is the relationship between the two is over.

It appears that Paolo couldn't even pay for lunch in this situation. He either wasn't privy to the fact that his boss initiated legal proceedings back in Nov. well before he went all Nancy Grace on social media, or he failed to disclose that info to the backers that DS had initiated legal proceedings in order to get the KS moving the direction it should be.

The only things we do know is that there are disagreements and those disagreements are preventing the KS from being moved forward. On Mr. Yao's word, DS offered discounts that BF must have felt it was not obligated to take.

It may very well be that once the court gets more thoroughly involved, they may order formal mitigation to prevent tying up court resources. If the court's are involved, there should be some kind of filing to find. My snope-fu is admittedly amateur, but I cannot find a location that DS has filed in.

Another update from the Kickstarter:

It was very disappointing to hear, via a recent Facebook message from Dust Studio CEO William Yau, that mediation has been rejected out of hand. To clarify, we have never had any independent third-party mediator try to help us resolve this dispute. The three times we have offered it has been rejected outright. As English is not the first language of several people involved, it’s understandable that the terminology has been a little blurred. But, while there have been attempts at negotiation, nothing resembling external mediation that has taken place.
During the Kickstarter campaign, Paolo Parente agreed to a split of free incentives to be provided partly by Battlefront and partly by Dust Studio. Without being able to predict backer numbers for each pledge level, it wasn’t possible to ensure exactly a 50/50 split of free items, but it was a fair split and the end result worked out fairly evenly.
Battlefront has already sent out the books, cards, templates, the Babylon campaign sets and Operation Achilles models that comprised our agreed portion of the free items. The only free product that we have yet to deliver is the Abandoned Well pre-painted terrain piece, and this is solely because the masters have never been given to us so we could produce them. However, William insists that Battlefront must pay for ALL the free items, regardless of what Paolo agreed.
The only serious suggestion of compromise came from a partner in Dust Studio who suggested we pay ‘cost’ for Dust Studio’s share of the free items, but even that was rejected by William. William’s ‘generous’ counter-offer of a 10% discount to Battlefront on stock that Paolo had agreed would be free did not seem so generous to us.
We have put a great deal of time, effort and expense during the last few years into creating the second edition rules, Dust Tactics Battlefield, new cards and the Operation Babylon campaign book. We committed ourselves 110% to DUST, and the feedback has shown that our work has been well received and appreciated.
At no point have we felt that DUST was not worth the effort. And, despite the dispute, we still feel the same as we did at the start - that it is a great hobby and a good fit with our company.
We will not engage in any public jousting or share confidential information simply to try and score points in the public arena; without all the facts, people see that for what it is and we don’t need to add fuel to the fire.
Setting all the personal attacks and verbal grandstanding aside, this is a business dispute between two companies that has to be resolved professionally for all of us to move on.
We are thankful that Paolo has stated on several occasions that the products are being made and should be finished at the end of March. This gives a little longer to try and come to a compromise to get you all what you deserve and what you signed up for.
Our commitment to this is no less than when we agreed to do this Kickstarter with Dust Studio.

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:

Franco, Rollin and Shock Waves? Have an exalt my good man!

Regarding the latest news, it's good to see that BF are hopeful of getting it resolved and the rewards to all backers. Regardless, I wouldn't even consider going near a KS with any involvement by either company at this stage, and the well has clearly been poisoned for a lot of other people as well.

Shotgun wrote:
It appears that Paolo couldn't even pay for lunch in this situation. He either wasn't privy to the fact that his boss initiated legal proceedings back in Nov. well before he went all Nancy Grace on social media, or he failed to disclose that info to the backers that DS had initiated legal proceedings in order to get the KS moving the direction it should be.

The only things we do know is that there are disagreements and those disagreements are preventing the KS from being moved forward. On Mr. Yao's word, DS offered discounts that BF must have felt it was not obligated to take.

It may very well be that once the court gets more thoroughly involved, they may order formal mitigation to prevent tying up court resources. If the court's are involved, there should be some kind of filing to find. My snope-fu is admittedly amateur, but I cannot find a location that DS has filed in.

I remember someone in the KS comments saying Paolo was in talks with lawyers already; way before this broke.

Also, what kind of dastardly plan has a person who has legal documents that show they're at fault hire lawyers to go to court pre-emptively? I mean, I just can't figure this part out.

I mean, at the end of all this speculation, it's really this simple. Does BF have evidence showing Paolo agreed to pay 1/2 or whatever? If so, then things are in their favor and honestly, going to court on DSs part would be a mistake. If no, then BF; as the creator of the KS and the one who received the funds, needs to settle this in whatever way it takes.

weeble1000 wrote:
Another update from the Kickstarter:

It was very disappointing to hear, via a recent Facebook message from Dust Studio CEO William Yau, that mediation has been rejected out of hand. To clarify, we have never had any independent third-party mediator try to help us resolve this dispute. The three times we have offered it has been rejected outright. As English is not the first language of several people involved, it’s understandable that the terminology has been a little blurred. But, while there have been attempts at negotiation, nothing resembling external mediation that has taken place.
During the Kickstarter campaign, Paolo Parente agreed to a split of free incentives to be provided partly by Battlefront and partly by Dust Studio. Without being able to predict backer numbers for each pledge level, it wasn’t possible to ensure exactly a 50/50 split of free items, but it was a fair split and the end result worked out fairly evenly.
Battlefront has already sent out the books, cards, templates, the Babylon campaign sets and Operation Achilles models that comprised our agreed portion of the free items. The only free product that we have yet to deliver is the Abandoned Well pre-painted terrain piece, and this is solely because the masters have never been given to us so we could produce them. However, William insists that Battlefront must pay for ALL the free items, regardless of what Paolo agreed.
The only serious suggestion of compromise came from a partner in Dust Studio who suggested we pay ‘cost’ for Dust Studio’s share of the free items, but even that was rejected by William. William’s ‘generous’ counter-offer of a 10% discount to Battlefront on stock that Paolo had agreed would be free did not seem so generous to us.
We have put a great deal of time, effort and expense during the last few years into creating the second edition rules, Dust Tactics Battlefield, new cards and the Operation Babylon campaign book. We committed ourselves 110% to DUST, and the feedback has shown that our work has been well received and appreciated.
At no point have we felt that DUST was not worth the effort. And, despite the dispute, we still feel the same as we did at the start - that it is a great hobby and a good fit with our company.
We will not engage in any public jousting or share confidential information simply to try and score points in the public arena; without all the facts, people see that for what it is and we don’t need to add fuel to the fire.
Setting all the personal attacks and verbal grandstanding aside, this is a business dispute between two companies that has to be resolved professionally for all of us to move on.
We are thankful that Paolo has stated on several occasions that the products are being made and should be finished at the end of March. This gives a little longer to try and come to a compromise to get you all what you deserve and what you signed up for.
Our commitment to this is no less than when we agreed to do this Kickstarter with Dust Studio.

Finally, a statement from an actual adult.

And there we have it. Now we have BF's side of the disagreement which they make the counter claim that Dust didn't fulfill its part of the arrangement.

If someone doesn't fulfill their part of the deal, should they really get the money from it?

That said, there's still a lot to suss out, and both sides could just be lying through their teeth. But, as I said already, there's really no reason to trust Dust's ploy to appeal to the public any more that Battlefront's own claims.

Overall, this seems like a disagreement and confusion rather than actual maliciousness from any part. It sounds like Paolo, who didn't actually have any say in the business decisions, making promises that couldn't be kept, then BF wondering why Dust wasn't living up to their agreement and withholding funds. Then the Dust Studio business controller stepping in and seeing that BF hasn't fulfilled its part of the agreement and immediately calling the lawyers.

As I keep saying, businesses are people, and often times in business you need the kind of personality that often charges forward ahead of common sense. This time around it's biting them in the arse.

It more or less confirms my obvious suspicions that DS wasn't being entirely forthcoming with their own role in this dispute, in almost exactly the way I figured it had happened (i.e. - that someone in DS induced BF to offer freebies by agreeing that they would be a lower cost). The shenanigans of "we sent official documents in November" before any of this nonsense was widely known makes the whole publicity stunt look worse, IMO. Normally in a best case I would say it shows that DS has horrible internal communications on business matters, which would feed exactly into BF's version of events where the left hand made an agreement without telling the right hand who then refuses to honor it well after the fact.

However, to give them the credit that even BF gives them, Mr. Yau's statement might have been poorly worded and "official documents" might be more correctly translated as "certified letter" and not the formal beginnings of a court case so much as a formal query in prepration. Still, letting Paolo run his mouth and post documents if you think you might be going to court is a terrible idea. Of course, if they're ultra-saavy, the whole stunt could be contrived to show Paolo as a loose cannon who would clearly NEVER be allowed to make business decisions and thus he couldn't have agreed because, look at him...he's crazy enough to post contracts and bank receipts on the Internet. "He's an artist, Your Honor, and has nothing to do with business because everyone knows artists are flakes, amirite?"

Of course, that could be 100% reality and not a ploy at all, but you can see where someone would mistake "the father of DUST" as someone who could actually make a binding agreement on behalf of a company named Dust Studios. Depending on where the various contracts were enacted, he very well might be capable of forming such a binding agreement, which now becomes a matter for the courts to suss out. Ugly situation all around, but it's "good" to have some of the other side of the story.

Personally, I wish they could just reach some sort of agreement and get things settled for the backers and then work this nonsense out afterwards. I understand from watching DS's actions why BF is leery about giving up any negotiating power they have, but they have this particular power because of the trust of other people. That alters the equation slightly for me; at some point you just need to suck it up and make those backers whole. If DS doesn't want to work with you, then end the relationship at that point but don't leave innocent people in a lurch. BF's actions once production is completed at the end of this month (i.e. - the soonest anything would have happened for the backers anyway) will be most interesting.

The only actual good news from this is that both companies seem to be working on their own ends while this side drama plays out so there's still a chance for the backers. I'm sure contract nonsense like this goes on between companies on a near-constant basis and we normally just don't hear about it.

As I have said a few times, at the end of the day it is a Kickstarter problem. The root of the whole problem is a Kickstarter project that was 'successful' but not really successful.

 Krinsath wrote:
It more or less confirms my obvious suspicions that DS wasn't being entirely forthcoming with their own role in this dispute, in almost exactly the way I figured it had happened (i.e. - that someone in DS induced BF to offer freebies by agreeing that they would be a lower cost). The shenanigans of "we sent official documents in November" before any of this nonsense was widely known makes the whole publicity stunt look worse, IMO. Normally in a best case I would say it shows that DS has horrible internal communications on business matters, which would feed exactly into BF's version of events where the left hand made an agreement without telling the right hand who then refuses to honor it well after the fact.

However, to give them the credit that even BF gives them, Mr. Yau's statement might have been poorly worded and "official documents" might be more correctly translated as "certified letter" and not the formal beginnings of a court case so much as a formal query in prepration. Still, letting Paolo run his mouth and post documents if you think you might be going to court is a terrible idea. Of course, if they're ultra-saavy, the whole stunt could be contrived to show Paolo as a loose cannon who would clearly NEVER be allowed to make business decisions and thus he couldn't have agreed because, look at him...he's crazy enough to post contracts and bank receipts on the Internet. "He's an artist, Your Honor, and has nothing to do with business because everyone knows artists are flakes, amirite?"

Of course, that could be 100% reality and not a ploy at all, but you can see where someone would mistake "the father of DUST" as someone who could actually make a binding agreement on behalf of a company named Dust Studios. Depending on where the various contracts were enacted, he very well might be capable of forming such a binding agreement, which now becomes a matter for the courts to suss out. Ugly situation all around, but it's "good" to have some of the other side of the story.

Personally, I wish they could just reach some sort of agreement and get things settled for the backers and then work this nonsense out afterwards. I understand from watching DS's actions why BF is leery about giving up any negotiating power they have, but they have this particular power because of the trust of other people. That alters the equation slightly for me; at some point you just need to suck it up and make those backers whole. If DS doesn't want to work with you, then end the relationship at that point but don't leave innocent people in a lurch. BF's actions once production is completed at the end of this month (i.e. - the soonest anything would have happened for the backers anyway) will be most interesting.

The only actual good news from this is that both companies seem to be working on their own ends while this side drama plays out so there's still a chance for the backers. I'm sure contract nonsense like this goes on between companies on a near-constant basis and we normally just don't hear about it.

The only problem I still see for BF is that Paolo was not listed in the contract as any sort of representative for Dust. Sure he's the guy with his name on everything, but he is not tied contractually to the kickstarter. In essence he has just as much business telling BF that they can get all the freebies at half price that I have of telling them they can buy GW for $20. So if it goes to court they could try and say he was a representative of Dust, but they'd have a hard time fighting that battle without some more paperwork showing Mr. Yao endorsing him or giving him negotiating rites.

The two companies need to just forget about the freebies until AFTER battlefront pays for wave 2 and DS ships it out to them. BF never should have used almost half the money to pay outstanding debts against the KS terms according to the contract posted. If they want to duke it out regarding the freebies, do so without screwing the customers out of the stuff that is paid for and not in contention. Both companies are playing hardball and always have been without much thought for the folks that pledged. In the end, each of the 5,000 individual KS contracts are with Battlefront USA and not the chinese DS so they're ultimately on the hook.

 warboss wrote:
The two companies need to just forget about the freebies until AFTER battlefront pays for wave 2 and DS ships it out to them. BF never should have used almost half the money to pay outstanding debts against the KS terms according to the contract posted. If they want to duke it out regarding the freebies, do so without screwing the customers out of the stuff that is paid for and not in contention. Both companies are playing hardball and always have been without much thought for the folks that pledged. In the end, each of the 5,000 individual KS contracts are with Battlefront USA and not the chinese DS so they're ultimately on the hook.

The goal of the KS was always to pay off the factor bank. I don't think that was a smart plan, but that was the plan none the less. The funds for the KS are all used up. Either they payed DS and where short on the outstanding loan, or they payed the loan and where short on wave 2. Honestly, paying off the big nasty multinational bank first and saving everyone's credit rating in the process was probably the right call. It's not like the bank was going to get involved with either one in another factor loan to cover any more manufacturing until they did.

And the contract states that it's DS ultimately responsible for fulfillment. Which I think is why DS is getting so bent out of shape on the order things where payed out. I guess they are hoping that constitutes a breach of the contract. But it's silly because the KS didn't take in enough money to rectify their financial situation anyway you cut it. The freebies where going to be a point of contention either way because I think it would have been pretty close if the 200K that went to the factor bank would have covered them if at all. The bank would still be after then for the loan and the BF/DS relationship would be finished anyway.

The KS was a Hail Mary pass that was fumbled. They should really be going to mediation because I don't think either party is completely in the wrong.

It does show that even a kickstarter from an established name isn't any kind of guarantee.

 CaulynDarr wrote:


The KS was a Hail Mary pass that was fumbled. They should really be going to mediation because I don't think either party is completely in the wrong.

Except for the part that you already mentioned - namely that the KS was being run to pay off past debts. Funny how I didn't see that in the spiel for the Kickstarter that suckered me into pledging. Silly me! I thought I was helping speed up production and get a bunch of product out fast.

The lying fethers who ran this Kickstarter wrote:
Some people still find it a little strange when established companies use crowd funding, but there are good reasons why it is increasingly becoming the norm. It is a very effective way of allowing us to achieve more, sooner. Because of the high cost of quality plastic tooling, we have always had to bring out new models a little at a time. By backing this project, you can help us accelerate the production of all the amazing new Operation Babylon models, and get them in your hands much sooner.

If I'd had any inkling that this money was going to be used to pay for debts, I wouldn't have pledged. If I'd known the stupid deal DS and BF had cut, I wouldn't have pledged. It shouldn't take a fething genius to see that this KS wasn't going to net BF any profit whatsoever.

The notion that BF would discuss taking up potentially massive financial obligations with someone who is not an appointed representative of the company they're dealing with is so wonderfully absurd it might actually be true.

"Hey random person who's actual involvement in the executive structure of the company is apparently unknown to us, we're splitting this 50/50, okay? Let's shake on it! Right, lets hit the pub!"

Well BF did take the frankly baffling step of taking over the Dust line from FFG without either paying to take or scrap FFGs huge stock of product

which then meant masses ended up at online discounters for below what BF was charging retailers (let alone consumers) for equivalent product, talk about sabotaging their own sales

so I can quite believe the above, especially when coupled with the multiple languages issues

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
Well BF did take the frankly baffling step of taking over the Dust line from FFG without either paying to take or scrap FFGs huge stock of product

which then meant masses ended up at online discounters for below what BF was charging retailers (let alone consumers) for equivalent product, talk about sabotaging their own sales

so I can quite believe the above, especially when coupled with the multiple languages issues

Actually from my understanding the relationship with FFG is even dumber than that. Until FFG's warehouse is empty of a given SKU, BF cannot sell that product full stop. Hence why the only way to get particular units is either from ordering from FFG (non-obvious) or buying a bundled starter-like package (new SKU, but more expensive and not as sell-able). So the various fire sales didn't hurt BF's bottom line because it was for product they couldn't actually sell yet. However, not buying out the existing stock is more than slightly bone-headed, especially if you're bailing FFG out of their contract as the parties have said.

My completely speculative and unfounded theory is that DS didn't mention certain aspects of their deal with FFG until after it would have been useful and contracts were in place. In this hypothetical world that may in no way resemble reality, it would then explain why BF seems to be less than willing to take this one on the chin. If that is something like the case (has this paragraph been caveated enough? ), I understand even if I don't agree.

And you are not that far from the truth I would say...

I wonder if the threats of legal action by the backers might force a resolution between DS and BF.

 Krinsath wrote:
Actually from my understanding the relationship with FFG is even dumber than that. Until FFG's warehouse is empty of a given SKU, BF cannot sell that product full stop. Hence why the only way to get particular units is either from ordering from FFG (non-obvious) or buying a bundled starter-like package (new SKU, but more expensive and not as sell-able). So the various fire sales didn't hurt BF's bottom line because it was for product they couldn't actually sell yet. However, not buying out the existing stock is more than slightly bone-headed, especially if you're bailing FFG out of their contract as the parties have said.

It's amazing that BF didn't buy out FFG's Dust leftovers after the big X-mas clearance.

 Crimson Devil wrote:
I wonder if the threats of legal action by the backers might force a resolution between DS and BF.

Under what recourse? What possible leverage could the backers bring to force a resolution? At this point the backers "invested" money into a Kickstarter project that hasn't been completed. Have there been a plethera of other failed Kickstarters out there where a project has funded only to fail misserably where the backers were able to "Call Saul" and magically force something to happen?

I'm not familiar with them if they have.

 Krinsath wrote:


My completely speculative and unfounded theory is that DS didn't mention certain aspects of their deal with FFG until after it would have been useful and contracts were in place. In this hypothetical world that may in no way resemble reality, it would then explain why BF seems to be less than willing to take this one on the chin. If that is something like the case (has this paragraph been caveated enough? ), I understand even if I don't agree.

There really isn't an explanation on this page that doesn't make BF look like incompetent bufoons. 'DS didn't mention certain aspects of their deal with FFG'...so then obviously all those contracts would be void. 'You can't sell any of our existing product yet' would be a pretty major omission.

I'm going to assume that BF paid almost nothing to take on Dust from FFG, and then ran the KS so that they wouldn't have to invest any capital in it at all. The KS didn't blow up like they hoped and now BF realises that they are potentially on the hook and DS realise that BF aren't going to take any risks to 'make DUST work'. I assume both just want out with no (further) losses.

This just shows that people should be very suspicious of kickstarters from established companies. There should be no need for a kickstarter in such cases, as loans are available. Sadly, it seems that many companies use their kickstarter funds to pay off other expenses/debt. If everything works out, then all is well. However, sometimes the company is still in debt and makes another kickstarter. In the worst cases, people do not get their stuff.

In this case, I am still hopeful. These are big companies and I think that it will be made to work. They are just fighting over the bill.

 spaceelf wrote:
This just shows that people should be very suspicious of kickstarters.

There, fixed it for you.

 spaceelf wrote:
This just shows that people should be very suspicious of kickstarters from established companies.

Really? I have yet to see any CMoN or Reaper KS fail to deliver.

I think people need to look a little deeper into the companies in question, just like anything else you'd put money toward.