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slargy wrote:
I think the cause for the russ variants being so lame is potentially a design oversight. Think about it, if damage would carry over to other models, then they would be at least servicable. The rules were probably made first as a "baseline heavy tank" then as they continued writing they realized that carrying over damage needed to be scrapped and forgot about poor ole IG. Either way, I am not butthurt since I have 3000 pts of Infantry muahahaha

I think it's probably GW going way overboard implementing several nerfs at once when one would do. 8th edition is clearly supposed to be more melee friendly, more "not getting tabled" friendly, more "units don't get one shot" friendly. They accomplished this by bumping nearly every unit's survivability up. Now transports can't get one shot, everyone gets an armor save, and melee was buffed so it hits the enemy lines 1st or 2nd turn pretty much guaranteed. This is already a big nerf to guard since guard is meant to be the tabling "mow em down before they reach your lines" type of faction. Then they went overboard going down the list of every Russ variant and making their main guns hot garbage.. maybe forgetting that the buffed survivability and speed of everything already puts guard on the back foot. They're not taking baby steps. They're strapping the baby to a rocket and launching it to the moon. Even more evident when you look at the deletion of the vendetta. "Oh gak.. this thing is some powerful long range firepower! Good lord, it might even kill a transport in one volley!... Fix it? feth that. DELETE IT."

I'll be running Special Weapons Squads in my Chimeras instead of Vets. With a Company and/or Platoon Commander in tow they still pack a decent enough punch. But most of all I just can't say no to 5pt demolition charges.

Has anyone pointed out that Knight Commander Pask can give orders to two Tank Commanders?
That would then be a BS 2+ guy with two buddies that are BS 3+, re-rolling 1's to hit.

I've been running the numbers to see how much of a difference the re roll stratagem and the orders help out the Russ. The first picture is what a Battle Cannon can do to a single Target with Toughness 8 and the 3+ save. The second is against a target with Toughness 5,6,or 7 with a 4+save.. The Stratagem was used to Re roll the number of shots roll if the original was 1 or 2. The code does the simulation 1 million times.

The data table shows the average value at each step of the rolling process, as well as the percent chances to cause 4 wound, 8 wounds, and 12 wounds. The twelve wound one is basically no chance for the Battle cannon but will get a little bit of use for when I post my demolisher cannon runs

And here are my Demolisher cannon results.

The first is against Toughness 6,7,8,9 3+ targets, the second, against T5 ,4+ targets. This time the stratagem re-rolled the number of shot roll on a 1.

Remember, all of these results are against a single target. My code does not currently handle multiple multi wound targets

I'm gonna be playing with the numbers for tank commanders and Pask ( they won't get the orders) as well as the possibility of using the stratagem on the demolisher's damage roll instead of the number of hits roll.

So I thought of something that could be pretty nasty:

Grab a spearhead and a super-heavy auxiliary detachment.

Grab a stormlord, six HWT and as many commanders/CS as you can.

Embark everyone.

Give orders to everyone inside

Laugh manically.

I'll roll with that

Lord Kragan wrote:
So I thought of something that could be pretty nasty:

Grab a spearhead and a super-heavy auxiliary detachment.

Grab a stormlord, six HWT and as many commanders/CS as you can.

Embark everyone.

Give orders to everyone inside

Laugh manically.

Yep, Stormlord still has its 20 fire points so it can be the ultimate party bus.

Also, with the Baneblade rules, the Stormlord and its passengers can fire ALL of their weapons while in melee. Ramming speed!

Lord Kragan wrote:
Give orders to everyone inside

Embarked units can't interact or be interacted with in any way, unless specifically stated otherwise. So you can shoot because of the Stormlord's specific "Extended Firing Deck" rule, but give/get no orders or auras.

That is true. You'd pretty much just want to put two HWS and two Command Squads with special weapons in there for exactly 20 models (because the HWTs count as two each, that's 12 and 8), leave the Officers outside so that they can issue orders to other people who are on foot.

Do 6 missile launchers and 8 grenade launchers if you want the Stormlord to be a generic anti-everything terror, or you could give the command squads flamers to compliment the twin-flamer-sponsons if you're going for the Demolition Derby/Ramming Speed strategy. 16d6 automatic hits!

Or you could do five Command Squads with special weapons.

 Trickstick wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:
Give orders to everyone inside

Embarked units can't interact or be interacted with in any way, unless specifically stated otherwise. So you can shoot because of the Stormlord's specific "Extended Firing Deck" rule, but give/get no orders or auras.

Well, that means less command squads to buy!

Though I'm not sure. Honestly I'm debating between too many options.

jaxor1983 wrote:
Has anyone pointed out that Knight Commander Pask can give orders to two Tank Commanders?
That would then be a BS 2+ guy with two buddies that are BS 3+, re-rolling 1's to hit.

Just noticed that. Maybe you can run a 5 tank blob with pask protected in the middle. He is ordering the commanders who are ordering the normal russes. Throw in a re roll stratagem plus any that we may (hopefully) get in the codex and just maybe we can salvage our tanks. Also if Forge world want to throw us a bone, all the better.

 ross-128 wrote:
That is true. You'd pretty much just want to put two HWS and two Command Squads with special weapons in there for exactly 20 models (because the HWTs count as two each, that's 12 and 8), leave the Officers outside so that they can issue orders to other people who are on foot.

Do 6 missile launchers and 8 grenade launchers if you want the Stormlord to be a generic anti-everything terror, or you could give the command squads flamers to compliment the twin-flamer-sponsons if you're going for the Demolition Derby/Ramming Speed strategy. 16d6 automatic hits!

Or you could do five Command Squads with special weapons.

Man, say whatever you want but this kind of things is making 8th edition beautiful to me. Also, Bullgryns with the melee during shooting order look a brutal meelee unit to me.

 ross-128 wrote:
..because the HWTs count as two each...

They count as two each for transport capacity, but that doesn't affect how many models can shoot out. So you could put 20 heavy weapon teams inside and fire them all. However, you could lose them if it is destroyed.

 Trickstick wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
..because the HWTs count as two each...

They count as two each for transport capacity, but that doesn't affect how many models can shoot out. So you could put 20 heavy weapon teams inside and fire them all. However, you could lose them if it is destroyed.

Oh that's right, and the Stormlord can transport 40 models, 20 of which can shoot. So you can do four HWSs and two Command Squads, that's 32 transported models (under 40, check), and 20 shooting models.

tneva82 wrote:
It's gone. Probably because GW doesn't sell vendeta model. FW meanwhile sells(well conversion kit) so it's 99% sure it comes on FW index end of june.

Then why are dakka flyrants still a thing? You need a FW upgrade kit for that as well.

 Baldeagle91 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
It's gone. Probably because GW doesn't sell vendeta model. FW meanwhile sells(well conversion kit) so it's 99% sure it comes on FW index end of june.

Then why are dakka flyrants still a thing? You need a FW upgrade kit for that as well.

No you don't? https://www.games-workshop.com/en-CA/Tyranid-Hive-Tyrant?_requestid=5676204


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Is there a mistake in the points value of a HWT? Is it really 4 points per mode? So a squad of 3 HWTs are only 12 points before weapons? Or is that likely a typo?

 Shadelkan wrote:
Is there a mistake in the points value of a HWT? Is it really 4 points per mode? So a squad of 3 HWTs are only 12 points before weapons? Or is that likely a typo?

It could be a typo, as 2 men should be 8 points. If it is printed like that at release though, what are you going to do? Let's just say I'm going to be using them but not rush out and buy 20 mortar squads.

 Shadelkan wrote:

 Baldeagle91 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
It's gone. Probably because GW doesn't sell vendeta model. FW meanwhile sells(well conversion kit) so it's 99% sure it comes on FW index end of june.

Then why are dakka flyrants still a thing? You need a FW upgrade kit for that as well.

No you don't? https://www.games-workshop.com/en-CA/Tyranid-Hive-Tyrant?_requestid=5676204

Errr yes you do https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-WW/Tyranid-Twin-linked-Devourers?_requestid=5691830

Twin linked devourers aren't in the Hive Tyrant box.

So... not really digging things.

 NenkotaMoon wrote:
So... not really digging things.

You should find your Nine-seventy and start entrenching!

Looked at the Genestealer cult vanquisher leman russ, its strength 9 in both it's unit entry and on the weapons page while ours is strength 8. Hoping these kinda things are ironed out before print of the real codex.

 Trickstick wrote:

 NenkotaMoon wrote:
So... not really digging things.

You should find your Nine-seventy and start entrenching!

Just might have to.

 portugus wrote:
Looked at the Genestealer cult vanquisher leman russ, its strength 9 in both it's unit entry and on the weapons page while ours is strength 8. Hoping these kinda things are ironed out before print of the real codex.

Is.. is this real? If so, that's infuriating.

ThePorcupine wrote:

 portugus wrote:
Looked at the Genestealer cult vanquisher leman russ, its strength 9 in both it's unit entry and on the weapons page while ours is strength 8. Hoping these kinda things are ironed out before print of the real codex.

Is.. is this real? If so, that's infuriating.

They stole all of the decent ammo. I guess it is revenge for all of those MCs that we one shotted with beast-hunter shells.

Sorry what are Beast Hunter shells? Seen a few references, a FW thing?

 RandyMcStab wrote:
Sorry what are Beast Hunter shells? Seen a few references, a FW thing?

They were a FW upgrade for the Armoured Battle Group Vanquisher tank commanders or commissar tanks. 15pts, str8 ap2 small blast, instant death. You could also fit a vanquisher with a co-axial stubber, which gave the main gun a reroll to hit if any stubber shot hit a target. Coupled with commanders/commissars being bs4, it made vanquishers an actually good unit. Even when the 7th edition codex came out and lowered the points costs for russes (ABG was on the previous point costs) they were still the best way to run vanquishers, much better than the codex version.

 RandyMcStab wrote:
Sorry what are Beast Hunter shells? Seen a few references, a FW thing?

Armored battle group from Forge World allowed your command and commissar (both had BS 4) Vanquishers to take best hunter shells which gave them instant death. Additionally, they could also have coaxial heavy stubbers, which if I'm interpreting the rules correctly, gave the vanquisher cannon twin linked. I would imagine that if that rule remained, it would remain a re roll instead of firing two shots.

But a bs3+ vanquisher cannon that re rolls 1 and does D6 mortal wounds could be pretty nice.

 Chris521 wrote:
But a bs3+ vanquisher cannon that re rolls 1 and does D6 mortal wounds could be pretty nice.

I really want the FW rules now...

ThePorcupine wrote:

slargy wrote:
I think the cause for the russ variants being so lame is potentially a design oversight. Think about it, if damage would carry over to other models, then they would be at least servicable. The rules were probably made first as a "baseline heavy tank" then as they continued writing they realized that carrying over damage needed to be scrapped and forgot about poor ole IG. Either way, I am not butthurt since I have 3000 pts of Infantry muahahaha

I think it's probably GW going way overboard implementing several nerfs at once when one would do. 8th edition is clearly supposed to be more melee friendly, more "not getting tabled" friendly, more "units don't get one shot" friendly. They accomplished this by bumping nearly every unit's survivability up. Now transports can't get one shot, everyone gets an armor save, and melee was buffed so it hits the enemy lines 1st or 2nd turn pretty much guaranteed. This is already a big nerf to guard since guard is meant to be the tabling "mow em down before they reach your lines" type of faction. Then they went overboard going down the list of every Russ variant and making their main guns hot garbage.. maybe forgetting that the buffed survivability and speed of everything already puts guard on the back foot. They're not taking baby steps. They're strapping the baby to a rocket and launching it to the moon. Even more evident when you look at the deletion of the vendetta. "Oh gak.. this thing is some powerful long range firepower! Good lord, it might even kill a transport in one volley!... Fix it? feth that. DELETE IT."

The Vendetta was removed because GW doesn't sell the model, it was removed back in 7TH edition when death from the skies released.