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Those flat 2 damage weapons were there for a reason. You don't just remove them without a second thought.

There will be a few less, but you are not leaving home without them.

Yeah, it's gonna be about balancing the D2 I think. Rather than just no-braining it and going all in or all out.

Spoletta wrote:
Those flat 2 damage weapons were there for a reason. You don't just remove them without a second thought.

There will be a few less, but you are not leaving home without them.

Well...Marines/custodes have -1 damage on dreads. DG has it on their whole army.

Before loading flat 2 damage weapons as your primary anti tank was probably the most effective way to kill things. Now? Now not so much. Realistically there is going to be somewhere around 80% reduction in flat 2 across the board. It will be much more common in melee than shooting too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It's also great for DA...can load up on plasma still and get +1 damage for your plasma canceling out DR.

Less incoming flat 2 and they put out lots of flat 3. Looking pretty good for DA.

Before loading flat 2 damage weapons as your primary anti tank was probably the most effective way to kill things. Now? Now not so much. Realistically there is going to be somewhere around 80% reduction in flat 2 across the board. It will be much more common in melee than shooting too.

Hmmmm. The melee part is interesting. I must confess I've been thinking about this primarily from a shooting/Plasma type of angle, but you make a good point. This may have an interesting impact on CC ...

Tycho wrote:

Before loading flat 2 damage weapons as your primary anti tank was probably the most effective way to kill things. Now? Now not so much. Realistically there is going to be somewhere around 80% reduction in flat 2 across the board. It will be much more common in melee than shooting too.

Hmmmm. The melee part is interesting. I must confess I've been thinking about this primarily from a shooting/Plasma type of angle, but you make a good point. This may have an interesting impact on CC ...

For marines and Crons my primary melee weapon is flat 2 damage. There really isn't a better option ether. Lychgaurd being 1 damage don't care. so I'll be including them a lot more.
Just think of all the flat 2 melee though...

 Xenomancers wrote:
Pretty sure every army has a start collecting box and you can buy rules separately from gigantic starter boxes. The majority of these starter boxes are bought by experienced players too because they are just discounted models. Me for example I bought 3 indomidus boxes and 3 dark imperium. What happened though? Dark imperium got me into choas and now I have a black legion army and indom got me into Necrons.
In the past I've gone halfsies on these starter boxes with other players and I keep the marine portion. Lots of marine players do that.

Starter sets/promotionnal boxes have far better value than start collecting boxes. And you're describing exactly what we are saying, it's cheap and easy to start an army with, so I don't know why you think it's mostly veterans that buy them outside of annecdotical bias. Now, when you consider that one of the armies in the box is going to receive support every single month forever and the other will be lucky to get a few release over the next 6 months, which army is more enticing to start with ?
BTW, how did you start ?

 Xenomancers wrote:
It's really marine players that keep the game going. They are the long-term players - the players that never leave.

I doubt it's the guys buying heavily discounted models as you describe that keep the game going. That isn't how any other market function.

 Xenomancers wrote:
This is why lots of these army bundle boxes include marines. They know marine players will buy them for the savings and maybe trade the other models armies away and guess what - there is a potential new player getting a non marine army. Or The marine player will just start another army like I did. The marketing strategy is all about this.

The marketing strategy is about selling marines because it's the only range they market and release products for, each month (and as you noted, it's easy to branch out of marines because they are often bundled with the new hotness). If you start necrons today, next year you will probably have nothing new to buy outside of starting another army. And at some point, that new army you're starting, will probably be marines because of exposure and costs.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Just look at the new killteam box. The most anticipated model this year is heavy intercessors...you are gonna have to buy a 150 dollar box to get them and you get some crons with it too...They might even get you involved in kill team. How many new players are gonna spend that kind of money to get 5 dudes?

KT is sold as an easy to get into, starting, enclosed game that doesn't require much more investment which is an appeal for a lot of new players.
And imho it is priced like that specially to avoid 40K players gobling up the stocks (and to profit from those foolish enough to pay 150 for 12 minis and gak terrain, minis that are going to be released for cheaper later, or more probably you are still saving a few bucks as I wouldn't be surprised to see the character + 5 HI go for 35+50) as previous boxes were just disapearing from stocks (their terrain boxes were good value for GW). You want a good deal for 40K ? Buy 40K starter set/indomitus. It has more minis and terrain you can actually use. Added bonus, you might trade your rulebook to an unsuspecting newbie waiting to be addicted to plastic crack.
In any case, GW isn't interested in selling KT to 40k veterans since there is nothing for them to buy here outside of the ruleset (which you can buy once for the whole group of players). You already have the minis and the terrain.

Everybody loving those flat 2 damage powerfist second guessing now....

So.... I've got a little time to try and put together the worst possible to exploit the Deathwing Inner Circle rules. Here we go:
(spoiler: I'm not impressed honestly). There are surely some rounding errors and other mistake (I don't think Battlescribe is updated with the new book of course, but more or less the feeling should be the same).



Long story short: a DW Command Squad allow you to pick the Ancient without needing another Elite slot (and the same goes for the Black Knight). Total: 20 terminator (5 in command squad, a 10-men squad and a Relic Terminator squad of 5). Here the goal is to stay under the 1000 point to be able to deep strike everyone (that's why they don't have a DW Apothecary but a RW instead: it can heal models turn 1, and is more mobile).
The RW section is a Patrol (so you start with 10 CP total), includes 2 RW unit (the bare minimum to let them survive T1 and allow the DW to be dropped somewhere). The RW Liutenants does always good work, so it's a given. The Librarian that lead the Vanguard should start on the table to use his psychich power Turn 1 and run if needed up the board (alternatively you can deploy a Terminator squad normally to cover the backfield). Some sparingly distributed Storm Shield would save the most dangerous attacks and provide a small amount of versatility.
I don't think the Deathwing Knights are needed is a list full of Terminator. Their Storm Shield already allows them to weather almost anything, and their lack of ranged weapons means the they will have to move around and won't be able to use properly their ObSec (normal terminator instead could at least stays on objective and shoot to other Troops).
A bare minimum AT is given by a Cyclone, plasma and a Lascannon (plus all the melee attack with powerfist).

Of course, since I haven't the book, fine tuning in terms of sinergy, psychic powers, relics and warlord trait need to be revised, and some Strategem efficiency (like redeploy) may bring you to include a standard Terminator squad (in the end the only thing you lose is the Watcher - which is useful but not mandatory, and the SS/TH on the sergeant. Here I don't know if the old stratagem to reduce Wound roll is still available: if some including 3 SS/TH can became more attractive).
Also, there are 30 point extra for the Terminator before they reach the limit to deep strike, so you can include another Cyclone instead of the Assault Cannon of give the Relic Terminator some other special weapons.

So, my conclusion:

As many have noted, if you field many Terminator body you lack seriously in firepower. I haven't run the math yet, but I expect 20 terminator will be very difficult to shift from any objective... but not being able to do almost anything else.
That said, you lack serious firepower, any kind of indirect weapons, and a savvy opponent will focus on the Ravenwing part of the army seriously inhibiting your ability to play the endgame and have mobility. You are seriously vulnerable in the first round, and you have any kind of problem to Deepstrike half of your army you're more or less done.
I personally think that 10-15 Terminator should be the maximum number you must include, drop the Black Knight in favour of some Land Speeder and use the saved point to add some more Tactical body, maybe a Rhino and for sure a Whirlwind or something else able to take care of MSU hidden on the other side of the board if your opponent ignore your Terminator and breaks your mobility.

In general I have the same idea as before: DA seems powerful, but are much more difficult to play than your average netlist powerhouse.

Feels just way to expensive to give DW obsec, and once you drop that I think BGV's do the durability better for less points.
I would instead go more for this direction. the BGV are there to stand on the midfield objectives and simply hold. Attack Bikes provide durable AT while Outriders threaten an objective

In what form, that kind of list, is better than a typical white scar one? You trade a ton of movility and offensive power for a little of durability in your bikers and BGV.


Not saying thats a bad list. Is a list that includes some of the most OP units space marines have. But I doubt is better in DA than in other chapters.

WS don't have talon masters, and DA have specific psychic powers,that WS can't get.

that main difference, if there is any, should be coming from chapter specific missions, stratagems others don't have access to. Having an apothecary that can keep up with all the bikers is big, even if it is just one model.

 Ordana wrote:
Feels just way to expensive to give DW obsec, and once you drop that I think BGV's do the durability better for less points.
I would instead go more for this direction. the BGV are there to stand on the midfield objectives and simply hold. Attack Bikes provide durable AT while Outriders threaten an objective

Spoiler:

Battalion:
Ezekiel
Primaris Chaplain on bike

5 Infiltrators
5 Infiltrators
5 Assault Intercessors

5 Bladeguard Vets
5 Bladeguard Vets

Outrider:
Talonmaster
Talonmaster

Ravenwing apothecary

3 Attack Bikes (2 MM)
3 Attack Bikes (2 MM)
3 Attack Bikes (2 MM)
3 Outriders

I assume one of the Talonmasters is the Warlord. This is a concept I've been working. I began comparing 3 Outsiders to 3 Multi Melta Attack Bikes and quickly realized there was only a 15 point difference. The two units appear to have synergy and the Ravenwing Apothecary works well with both units. However, I still don't think these armies will be over the top. It is anecdotal, but in 9th edition, I'm not losing to a Marine army. When I lose it is because I've been outplayed by my opponent. I don't see this changing with the release of the Dark Angel book.

Well, you are right. Giving ObSec to the Terminators is pricey.

I don't feel like you should rely on BGV however since they lack good delivery methods... More than a single unit will impact your ability to cover the board against quick enemies.

Also, be aware that Attack Bikes or Outrider are more vulnerable to high Damage weapons, and easier to reduce to a point when they can't screen the Talonmaster or the RW Apothecary (that's why I preferred Bikes).

Anyway, it seems that out of the theoretical Mathammer, the Dark Angel Boogeyman are not so scary... right?

I agree I would have gotten the set before and I’m half certain GW will pull the “it’s the only way to get the captain BS they usually pull. But I’m gonna wait I also hope they release a better outriders eventually selling the ones right out of the box is kinda dumb Imo.

 Cybtroll wrote:
Well, you are right. Giving ObSec to the Terminators is pricey.

I don't feel like you should rely on BGV however since they lack good delivery methods... More than a single unit will impact your ability to cover the board against quick enemies.

Also, be aware that Attack Bikes or Outrider are more vulnerable to high Damage weapons, and easier to reduce to a point when they can't screen the Talonmaster or the RW Apothecary (that's why I preferred Bikes).

Anyway, it seems that out of the theoretical Mathammer, the Dark Angel Boogeyman are not so scary... right?

Bikes might be better then Outriders. its hardly a refined list. Don't think BGV need a delivery method, they only need to get to the middle of the board to stand in objectives, they are not for actually charging into the opponents deployment zone.

DA might not be IH 2.0 levels broken but Space Marines are already really good and DA are in many ways better then other marines with a really good utility psychic discipline, a great secondary and more durability.

And just like that, everyone calmed down and realized DA are not going to dominate the meta.
As a licensed physical therapist, y'all let me know if you need rehab after those severe knee jerk reactions!

We don't really have any games with them yet to know for sure. Not that tournament info is the be-all end-all, but the vast majority of people will have yet to personally encounter DA yet also.

Too early to tell how strong DA are.

I know only one DA player, and right now he has a close to 100% win rate with them ( I think that he lost only 2 games since the start of 9th), but he had that win rate even before the codex, and even before the FAQ, when DA had a 36% win rate according to 40kstats. Sometimes it is just the player.

They surely have all the tools to deal with the current meta, but also seem to struggle a lot to fit those tools into lists.

DG honestly scare me more than DA, but... hey, I'm playing sisters right now, so I'm a full competitive tier above both of them!

Dark Angels on the whole don't seem OP -- just the inner circle rule seems a bit much.

Old Iron Hands supplement was broken because I'm almost 99% sure now that it was originally written for 9th edition and was adapted for 8th. If you take the supplement as it was published (no faq or errata) and play it in 9th edition, it's just average, with the one exception being the un-errata'd cogitated martyrdom being a bit over the top, and even then, it's only when used with the OLD leviathan.

Quasistellar wrote:
Dark Angels on the whole don't seem OP -- just the inner circle rule seems a bit much.

Old Iron Hands supplement was broken because I'm almost 99% sure now that it was originally written for 9th edition and was adapted for 8th. If you take the supplement as it was published (no faq or errata) and play it in 9th edition, it's just average, with the one exception being the un-errata'd cogitated martyrdom being a bit over the top, and even then, it's only when used with the OLD leviathan.

Da fuk? There are literally a host of issues with all those supplements. There were deliberately made OP and then toned down later. They are all errataed/nerfed to the point they are unrecognizable. The same thing will happen with DA. Same thing will happen with quins/daemons/custodies. Covid has just put a damper on any amount of urgency they had.

 Xenomancers wrote:
The same thing will happen with DA. Same thing will happen with quins/daemons/custodies.

You keep making these assertions and they keep not happening.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Quasistellar wrote:
Dark Angels on the whole don't seem OP -- just the inner circle rule seems a bit much.

Old Iron Hands supplement was broken because I'm almost 99% sure now that it was originally written for 9th edition and was adapted for 8th. If you take the supplement as it was published (no faq or errata) and play it in 9th edition, it's just average, with the one exception being the un-errata'd cogitated martyrdom being a bit over the top, and even then, it's only when used with the OLD leviathan.

Da fuk? There are literally a host of issues with all those supplements. There were deliberately made OP and then toned down later. They are all errataed/nerfed to the point they are unrecognizable. The same thing will happen with DA. Same thing will happen with quins/daemons/custodies. Covid has just put a damper on any amount of urgency they had.

K.

Quasistellar wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Quasistellar wrote:
Dark Angels on the whole don't seem OP -- just the inner circle rule seems a bit much.

Old Iron Hands supplement was broken because I'm almost 99% sure now that it was originally written for 9th edition and was adapted for 8th. If you take the supplement as it was published (no faq or errata) and play it in 9th edition, it's just average, with the one exception being the un-errata'd cogitated martyrdom being a bit over the top, and even then, it's only when used with the OLD leviathan.

Da fuk? There are literally a host of issues with all those supplements. There were deliberately made OP and then toned down later. They are all errataed/nerfed to the point they are unrecognizable. The same thing will happen with DA. Same thing will happen with quins/daemons/custodies. Covid has just put a damper on any amount of urgency they had.

K.

What here is wrong though? Each supplement needed toning down and an Errata/FAQ afterwards.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Da fuk? There are literally a host of issues with all those supplements. There were deliberately made OP and then toned down later. They are all errataed/nerfed to the point they are unrecognizable. The same thing will happen with DA. Same thing will happen with quins/daemons/custodies. Covid has just put a damper on any amount of urgency they had.

This might be approaching squig buggies are OP level of exaggeration.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Da fuk? There are literally a host of issues with all those supplements. There were deliberately made OP and then toned down later. They are all errataed/nerfed to the point they are unrecognizable. The same thing will happen with DA. Same thing will happen with quins/daemons/custodies. Covid has just put a damper on any amount of urgency they had.

This might be approaching squig buggies are OP level of exaggeration.

I guess only in the sense that Full ork buggy lists started to win events afterwards?
All these supplements were heavy nerfed - IH and IF most of all because they were the obvious outliers.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
[N]erfed to the point they are unrecognizable.The same thing will happen with DA. Same thing will happen with quins/daemons/custodies. Covid has just put a damper on any amount of urgency they had.

What here is wrong though? Each supplement needed toning down and an Errata/FAQ afterwards.

This bit seems pretty fething hyperbolic to me.

Only the IH and Sally supplements were nerfed... IH twice.

IF nerf arrived with the dex, and I don't remember anything happening to WS UM and RG.

 Canadian 5th wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
[N]erfed to the point they are unrecognizable.The same thing will happen with DA. Same thing will happen with quins/daemons/custodies. Covid has just put a damper on any amount of urgency they had.

What here is wrong though? Each supplement needed toning down and an Errata/FAQ afterwards.

This bit seems pretty fething hyperbolic to me.

It is what happened. No exaggeration. Actual event. IH and IF were heavily nerfed. Both regarding their super doctrine. Plus IH had several strats nerfed. All chapters had doctrines nerfed to mandatory changing. Plus it would have extended much futher if not for no competitive 40k taking place after sometime in march of last year.

Even after all the nerfs, both IH and IF still vastly outperformed (and still outperform) a good number of factions.

They never got anything remotely resembling the Ynnari/GSC-style nerf they need(ed) (twice over)

Spoletta wrote:
Only the IH and Sally supplements were nerfed... IH twice.

IF nerf arrived with the dex, and I don't remember anything happening to WS UM and RG.

RG lost infiltrating Cents.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Canadian 5th wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
[N]erfed to the point they are unrecognizable.The same thing will happen with DA. Same thing will happen with quins/daemons/custodies. Covid has just put a damper on any amount of urgency they had.

What here is wrong though? Each supplement needed toning down and an Errata/FAQ afterwards.

This bit seems pretty fething hyperbolic to me.

It is what happened. No exaggeration. Actual event. IH and IF were heavily nerfed. Both regarding their super doctrine. Plus IH had several strats nerfed. All chapters had doctrines nerfed to mandatory changing. Plus it would have extended much futher if not for no competitive 40k taking place after sometime in march of last year.

The underlined part has happened alread and isn't pure hyperbole? Are you actually arguing this one...