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 Arbitrator wrote:
I don't know, PP aren't the brightest sparks but I don't know if they're that naïve. Metal became untenable so they must have their finger on the price pulse at least a little. Warcaster had a pretty good spread of different starter sets at different prices around... $60-75 iirc? I'd be surprised if they didn't do something in that range eventually, or maybe Warcaster's lack of success (outside Kickstarter) is what made them think they can just lean on the diehard whales.

I mean sure but those are the same diehard whales have just been told that 90% of their existing collections are invalided for the main game mode, and can’t even be used in a legacy fashion for months as they’re not even getting stat lines imminently. That’s a pretty tough sell.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Is it a $200 starter? Or is it a $400 starter?

After all, if I spend $200, and no one else locally does….what exactly has been started?

200 for one force, not a single word in the press release if they will make a two player box.

You get the feeling that this press release was just ment to say; Hey we are making mk4 and here is some super early beta rules where we have removed alot of wharmahordes identity, oh and btw, we are invalidating more or less the entire mk1-mk3 model range for main mk4 to get some mutch needed cash.

Con will hopefully shed some light on the issues with these new starter boxes, and i hope thouse fans that are left, can put presshure on PP to make REAL starter boxes, and make a new point bracket in the mk4 rules at around 20-25p.

And another thing folks, 200 that is for US, expect the price to be even higer for EU, due to VAT and import taxes, so they are not doing any good job in promoting this outside of US. Aus is prolly not going to any better.

I do feel like PP would have done a lot to have had a big splash of the new boxed sets and all - even just one. They REALLY should be blowing us away with models and the new production method and box contents.

There shouldn’t be import taxes for most places - Australia, for example, would surely be a 3D printing hub?

Have skim read most of the news

And well, not really feeling it, if I can get by on a BRB I'll most likely give it a whirl, as I have nearly all the Circle stuff. mostly Ebay sourced thanks to PP's comical supply chain outside the merika (also locking some of the range behind a direct only wall, with added customs risk (and handling charges) was a donk move)

We will be bringing a very limited amount of Orgoth Sea Raiders and Cygnar Storm Legion product to Gen Con next week, consisting of the warjack A, warjack B, and warcaster C SKUs for those two armies. They will be sold as a battlegroup for $75 (purchased a la carte, they would total $95 to $105.) We will also be selling the same items online during the course of Gen Con, and we are offering free shipping on all orders over $100 to anywhere in the U.S., Canada, Australia, the UK, and the EU until the end of August 10th. Just know that depending on the number of orders we receive, delivery could take significantly longer than normal. Our hope in offering this preview is to get some of these models out into the world and maybe even on some tables so that those on the front lines of the new edition will be able to show others a bit of what’s coming this fall.

Oh, so they are offering a couple smaller demo boxes/bundles, it's just GenCon exclusive.

That $75 is a bit more than what the current Battlegrpups go for, and those are 1 Warcaster and 2- 3 Warjacks, tokens, dice, rules, and a flimsy mat. 1 Warcaster and 2 Warjacks os a bit less.

Unless the $75 is for both armies, in which case it will be a bargain.

Still, given that PP can make a small Battlegroup, I am surprised that they haven't made it a permanent thing for MKIV.

 stonehorse wrote:
I am surprised that they haven't made it a permanent thing for MKIV.

Because they're PP, they can't think so far that this would sell better than a 200$ Set.

$200 for some 3-d printed minis. Feth that!

 Vertrucio wrote:
Yeah, this was not a strong launch of a product, even in beta form.

But, on price, honestly I've been paying far more from GW for far less models in the Necromunda line.

And, if talk is to be believed, Army lists within factions no longer include a bunch of free extra models/units. So at least initially, fewer models counts as more points on the table. That's always been a bit of WM's thing.

I think the whole Line of Sight media dropping discreet coverage of Warmachine may have been the straw that broke the camel's back in terms of marketing, so they had to push this out the door before they had even renders of both starter sets, or production quality level prints to send out, or even time for people who received previews to fully paint them.

Every time there's a problem, the answer seems to be: it'll be better at GenCon. So maybe wait until GenCon? This may be getting ahead of GenCon to try and get some of the pre-con news cycle to themselves. At gencon, media embargoes to previewers can drop and they show their cleaned and painted models. PP can run demos and show off starters, etc.

This feels rushed and a premature announcement to me.
It’s basically an alpha rules document with no models or armies to go along with it.
Those thinking that PP is all of a sudden going to have printing farms on every continent are hoping for the impossible. Anywhere outside of the US will have to wait at least a year, maybe longer, before they start seeing models made locally. And that’s only if the launch is successful. If it’s a lukewarm or poor launch?
It’s already looking to be a rushed and overly ambitious launch as it is from a company with few customers left and what appears to be very little capital left.
This press release is just a bunch of words for those of us not attending GenCon. And I would assume that the only folks going to be trying it out there of course will be the super fans and whales, whom might do nothing but gush at how awesome everything is.
Which is why I don’t understand why we wouldn’t see a bunch of previews from the painting crowd.

I’d check it out if not for the $300CAD buy in it requires. If I’m reluctant to do that as a former fan, then they have missed the mark here. We need a more affordable buy in to test the waters.

For all the complaints about buy in all people are really going to need is the (free?) app for the rules and a bunch of the cheap old minis to proxy?

people will certainly be able to figure out if they like the newer way of playing well enough before spending the $200 (or $400 if they feel they need to provide both forces)

It's not cheap to get the 'starter' but we also don't know what the finances for these are going to look like, especially if the 3D printing is being contracted out rather than being done by PP or a wholly owned subsidiary. 3D printing doesn't scale like plastic production so a $75 box may not make enough profit for anything other than an occasionally available item (not saying they won't be making anything on it, but just not enough)

What I, personally, find weird is how if they didn't offer something that was tailored for "out of the box" playing? They'd probably be getting just as much flak.

They posted the Orgoth army set:

1 Kishtaar, the Howling Silence warcaster

1 Jackal warjacks (4 heads and 8 weapon options)

1 Tyrant warjack (4 heads and 8 weapon options)

1 Assault Reavers unit + Standard Bearer (6 models)

1 Strike Reavers unit + Standard Bearer (6 models)

1 Ulkor Barrager (3 models)

1 Warwitch Coven unit (3 models)

1 Orgoth Commander solo

That's:
1x Warcaster
1x Heavy Warjack
1x Light Warjack
1x Solo
1x unit of 3 40mm or 50mm based models
2x units of 5 models with standards.
1x unit of 3 30mm or so based models

As far as I know, we haven't seen this warcaster yet. They might be the Big Based Warcaster coming for Orgoth.

 Platuan4th wrote:
So, in short, there's not even going to be any real variation in what you field or face without some serious cash output or already owning Legacy stuff(which may not even have their rules available at launch and are excluded from most of the new features).

Yes and no. Army lists are generally going to be overwhelmingly cookie cutter. Variation in lists will come in the form of warjack loadouts (each warjack has something like 64 possible permutations base as it comes with 4 head/cortex options, 4 weapon A options and 4 weapon B options. I assume more out there warjack designs might have some additional selections to make (shoulder mounted weapons, etc.), warcaster racks (i.e. customizable spell lists), and command cards (5 cards you choose at the start of the game that give you what are basically mini-feats), as well as what (if any) Cadres you field. For the most part though, variation will probably come down to which of 2-3 warcasters for your army are you going to take + how many Warjack A vs how many Warjack B. You can get more differentiation if you are willing to spring for the "a la carte" unit purchases from the boxes down the line, but I think most people will find that not worth it.

I think the whole Line of Sight media dropping discreet coverage of Warmachine may have been the straw that broke the camel's back in terms of marketing, so they had to push this out the door before they had even renders of both starter sets, or production quality level prints to send out, or even time for people who received previews to fully paint them.

Influencers were put under NDA and made aware of MK4 and what it would entail several months ago, PP wanted to have them on board to hype and market the new edition. LoS hasn't (and probably won't for legal reasons) said it outright, but its highly likely the reason they are dropping Warmachine coverage is because they were feeling burned by Mk4 and the forced obsolescence of the existing miniatures range, etc.

 Platuan4th wrote:

We will be bringing a very limited amount of Orgoth Sea Raiders and Cygnar Storm Legion product to Gen Con next week, consisting of the warjack A, warjack B, and warcaster C SKUs for those two armies. They will be sold as a battlegroup for $75 (purchased a la carte, they would total $95 to $105.) We will also be selling the same items online during the course of Gen Con, and we are offering free shipping on all orders over $100 to anywhere in the U.S., Canada, Australia, the UK, and the EU until the end of August 10th. Just know that depending on the number of orders we receive, delivery could take significantly longer than normal. Our hope in offering this preview is to get some of these models out into the world and maybe even on some tables so that those on the front lines of the new edition will be able to show others a bit of what’s coming this fall.

Oh, so they are offering a couple smaller demo boxes/bundles, it's just GenCon exclusive.

Not quite. These sets are just Warcaster C + Warjack A + Warjack B standalones for each Army being sold together at a bundle at a discount price of $75 per army. As the legal minimum play size for the game is 50pts, the gencon sets don't actually get you a legally playable force (Warjack A + B are sold in the starter army as well alongside 4 units and a solo, meaning that the two warjacks alone won't get you to 50 points).

Technically speaking you *can* play games less than 50 points, because the PP police aren't going to bust down your door if you and a mate play a random point value other than 50/75/100, but by RAW theres no rules support for doing so.

 NAVARRO wrote:
Screw starter sets at this point in time with, new production cast model, new materials and unproven quality they should sell an individual jack box for people to check what is this magnets and 3D printing all about.

In good news, of the minimal SKUs being released, individual jack boxes are one of the products.

It is worth noting that unlike the current battleboxes, the new starters come with all the weapon options for the jacks. The new jack kits aren't that different from existing kits content wise outside of not being PVC and being super easy to magnetize by all accounts (including from a friend I know personally that got a sample) but those things have always been far more expensive than the static versions that come in starters.


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chaos0xomega wrote:

Not quite. These sets are just Warcaster C + Warjack A + Warjack B standalones for each Army being sold together at a bundle at a discount price of $75 per army. As the legal minimum play size for the game is 50pts, the gencon sets don't actually get you a legally playable force (Warjack A + B are sold in the starter army as well alongside 4 units and a solo, meaning that the two warjacks alone won't get you to 50 points).

Technically speaking you *can* play games less than 50 points, because the PP police aren't going to bust down your door if you and a mate play a random point value other than 50/75/100, but by RAW theres no rules support for doing so.

It varies since you can customize the jacks, but it looks like the max you can get out of the two Cygnar jacks is 29 points. The Orgoth pair can get to 31 total.


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 stonehorse wrote:
"Models Can Only Attack Enemy Models: We have generally removed the ability for friendly models to target other friendly models with attacks. There are some exceptions, of course, including warbeast frenzies and models with the Berserk special rule, but for the most part, you are no longer allowed to target your own models with attacks. This not only removed what we have long felt was a potentially awkward exploit in the rules but also allowed us to further streamline rules writing and interactions."

It took four editions for PP to work this one out... Jesus wept. I honestly wonder whether the designers are idiots who accidentally stumbled upon some very cool game mechanics.

I'm basically 100% convinced that this was the plan for MK3 but somewhere late in development they got cold feet, probably on account of the playtesters demanding it be integral to the experience. Almost every notable rule issue with Mk3 at launch was a result of rules from Mk2 losing friendly targeting language or otherwise only really being a problem by targeting friendlies.

I hope that they change the rules for anti-magic units. I find it weird that I can't target a unit with spells but I can effect them if I see a unit across the board from them or if there is someone behind them. It should be either a unit can be effected by magic or not. It shouldn't be based on targeting.

 Monkeysloth wrote:
The $200 is a whole army for MK4 right?

Nope.

If you read the article, you will have to buy the starter, the faction expansion, and one extra warjack to get to 100 points. The $175+ starter will only have enough minis for the smallest game size.

I think this is a mistake.

Games Workshop can get away with those prices because of how popular it is and the quality of their sculpts...this game is trying to reboot itself out of the gutter. Not only is that 3x the cost of the previous starter boxes it's also a large gamble for small business retailers trying stock all factions at launch.

 D6Damager wrote:

Games Workshop can get away with those prices because of how popular it is and the quality of their sculpts...this game is trying to reboot itself out of the gutter. Not only is that 3x the cost of the previous starter boxes it's also a large gamble for small business retailers trying stock all factions at launch.

Note to mention that GW does offer alternative options for those on lower budgets to get into the game.
GW hit the issues of big armies and big upfront costs to get started and it was one (not the only) contributing factors to Old World falling apart. The lack of ability for a cheap entry point with a lower model count, suitable for someone just getting started.


I agree, PP seem to really be missing a trick here. High upfront costs is only going to work for existing customers, but they are almost setting those bridges on fire with the reboot being what it is and likely to at least make some a little cool on reception. So they should be leaning super heavily into new people. Bigging up relaunching, cheap entry boxes, smaller game sizes, smaller game format, a PG scheme or similar restoration. Etc... They should be putting pressure on marketing to draw in new people and make the game as accessible as possible.

Restricting it to high value boxes will only keep the game within its current market and will stifle attempts to grow.
You're basically putting yourself in the same box as something like Adepticus Titanicus. A side game for GW that isn't expected to rival 40K or AoS or anything. A specialist niche game that I suspect is predominantly bought by people who are already GW customers and perhaps far less by those totally new to wargaming.

Going to have to wildly disagree. 2P starters only get you so far, while having a clear "progression path" gets you farther.

Look at SW Armada. The new Fleet starters are hella pricy for what they are, but from what I can tell they cannot keep them in stock on Miniature Market or at my FLGS.

Being able to just say "Hey, buy this box to start playing after you build!" has a whole better feel to incoming players.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Going to have to wildly disagree. 2P starters only get you so far, while having a clear "progression path" gets you farther.

Look at SW Armada. The new Fleet starters are hella pricy for what they are, but from what I can tell they cannot keep them in stock on Miniature Market or at my FLGS.

Being able to just say "Hey, buy this box to start playing after you build!" has a whole better feel to incoming players.

On a very small or non existent player pool you would want a 2player. At least you can convince your brother or friends to play a bit with you just to dip their toes. 1player starters and you are left alone with no chance to even start or introduce friends.

 D6Damager wrote:

 Monkeysloth wrote:
The $200 is a whole army for MK4 right?

Nope.

If you read the article, you will have to buy the starter, the faction expansion, and one extra warjack to get to 100 points. The $175+ starter will only have enough minis for the smallest game size.

I think this is a mistake.

Games Workshop can get away with those prices because of how popular it is and the quality of their sculpts...this game is trying to reboot itself out of the gutter. Not only is that 3x the cost of the previous starter boxes it's also a large gamble for small business retailers trying stock all factions at launch.

I do think the starters have too much sticker shock to really entice new players.

That said, I'd not rule out the smallest game size. Brawlmachine has proven very popular and everyone I've played Warcaster with has preferred it at the Skirmish level (myself included). I honestly hope the game finds its groove at 75 and the community can avoid bloating to 100.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Going to have to wildly disagree. 2P starters only get you so far, while having a clear "progression path" gets you farther.

Look at SW Armada. The new Fleet starters are hella pricy for what they are, but from what I can tell they cannot keep them in stock on Miniature Market or at my FLGS.

Being able to just say "Hey, buy this box to start playing after you build!" has a whole better feel to incoming players.

Thing is Starwars Armada has the power of Starwars.
A VAST franchise and series that has lasted for decades.You basically have to seriously seriously mess up to have something as powerful as that not sell.


Furthermore I think some of their stocking issues are because they do pre-painted which I'm going to assume is higher cost/slower turnaround compared to simply model sprue in a box of regular wargames.



Warmachine is not Starwars and over the last 5+ years Warmachine has seen a decline in general sales, popularity and awareness, coupled with the wargames market seeing a lot of general expansion of more games and many games getting bigger in fanbase. Warmachine just hasn't got the momentum it once had and that makes many of us worried when their plan seems to be to focus on fewer higher priced buy-in options to get into the game. Especially when they are doing a fairly hard re-set. Heck as a fan more of Hordes I've got to wait a whole other year before Hordes even appears on the Radar and no idea if/when Everblight (or an army associated with it) starts to get releases. So even there the slower turn around is going to mean they've got several years of existing fans having stalled uptake. Running down the current lines is sensible, but not replacing them at the same speed and leaving potentially years of nothing is a huge risk if those that do get released don't surge in sales.

Have anyone manage to locate better quality images for the miniatures? Some bare resins maybe?

Surely there's someone out there with those models at hand and a phone made in this decade.

 His Master's Voice wrote:
Have anyone manage to locate better quality images for the miniatures? Some bare resins maybe?

Surely there's someone out there with those models at hand and a phone made in this decade.

This is the main problem.
Like 3 influencers got model previews, and that’s a single Orgoth Warjack.
We’ve seen nothing of the releases, which are apparently coming out in a couple months.

From what I’ve been hearing and reading, it seems as though many current fans are in a wait-and-see mode, and new players will also do the same due to the steep buy in cost for a single starter.
Hordes is off the menu until 2024 as well.
This just seems designed to utterly fail without a massive uptake in the new edition.
Couple this with a free app that folks can just proxy with, and we’re looking at least two years of further slumping sales. I don’t know if PP has the resources to last that long.
Unless they limp along with minimal support by Kickstarting more RPG material.

I’m baffled how anyone at PP is failing to see this…..

There are a bunch of models in this thread in the PP section - https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/805916.page

 Ghool wrote:

 His Master's Voice wrote:
Have anyone manage to locate better quality images for the miniatures? Some bare resins maybe?

Surely there's someone out there with those models at hand and a phone made in this decade.

This is the main problem.
Like 3 influencers got model previews, and that’s a single Orgoth Warjack.
We’ve seen nothing of the releases, which are apparently coming out in a couple months.

From what I’ve been hearing and reading, it seems as though many current fans are in a wait-and-see mode, and new players will also do the same due to the steep buy in cost for a single starter.
Hordes is off the menu until 2024 as well.
This just seems designed to utterly fail without a massive uptake in the new edition.
Couple this with a free app that folks can just proxy with, and we’re looking at least two years of further slumping sales. I don’t know if PP has the resources to last that long.
Unless they limp along with minimal support by Kickstarting more RPG material.

I’m baffled how anyone at PP is failing to see this…..

PP has always been kinda terribad at marketing, honestly. Clearly, with the reduced staff now from their heyday, and also probably loss of some of their more experienced folks, they haven't learned those lessons. And, they've also always had kind of an ego (those of us that were once volunteers, like Ghool and myself can attest to this), which for a while was a "cool and edgy" thing to be the underdog against the Evil GW, but those days are long gone, and that rep is hurting them more than helping I think.

I have no ill wishes to them, I want to be clear there. I hope they succeed. But, like Ghool, I'm a bit mystified at some of the decisions they continually make.


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 insaniak wrote:
There are a bunch of models in this thread in the PP section - https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/805916.page

Pretty sure those are renders, tho. Or at least, highly touched up photos. I think a lot of us want to see photos of the final production models.

The answer seems pretty simple. PP hasn't really been making money off of Warmachine releases for.... a couple years now probably? MonPoc, the RPG, MiniCrate, probably even Warcaster to a degree are profitable enough apparently, and when you're not publicly traded, enough can actually just be enough, especially after cutting back as much as they have.

Ultimately the community is in a wait and see mode because until we get rules for our existing armies in October..... all we can do is wait and see. Right now is the time of anguish. Hype is good, but it'll burn out by October when people can actually start putting money down. I'd expect and hope for more hype in September leading up to the actual launch, as opposed to just the announcement.

 Valander wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
There are a bunch of models in this thread in the PP section - https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/805916.page

Pretty sure those are renders, tho. Or at least, highly touched up photos. I think a lot of us want to see photos of the final production models.

The pics at the start of the thread are renders. The painted pics are actual models, although whether they're actual production versions or better quality master prints is anyone's guess.

 LunarSol wrote:
The answer seems pretty simple. PP hasn't really been making money off of Warmachine releases for.... a couple years now probably? MonPoc, the RPG, MiniCrate, probably even Warcaster to a degree are profitable enough apparently, and when you're not publicly traded, enough can actually just be enough, especially after cutting back as much as they have.

Ultimately the community is in a wait and see mode because until we get rules for our existing armies in October..... all we can do is wait and see. Right now is the time of anguish. Hype is good, but it'll burn out by October when people can actually start putting money down. I'd expect and hope for more hype in September leading up to the actual launch, as opposed to just the announcement.

• It will take at least until the end of 2023 before we can release MKIV rules conversions for all existing models.

You might get some of your existing armies in October. You could be waiting till 2024.

 Valander wrote:
Pretty sure those are renders, tho. Or at least, highly touched up photos. I think a lot of us want to see photos of the final production models.

Presumably we'll be able to see those starting next week when the GenCon shipments go out. I know a few people who have gotten some early production models though and from what they've shared there are some very high points and some notable issues. For the most part I've seen very few issues of notable stepping without significant magnification, which is really hard to tell if its an issue or not. Some issues of pooling on various parts and a disappointing face on the Cygnar caster. None of it seems outrageous though and very much on a level similar to the kind of stuff I see with most materials. Some of it is a squeaky wheel problem, as there's an emphasis on the problems found, but thus far the ones I have seen have been minor enough that I don't have a strong concern until I've got it in hand to work on myself. Definitely some positives. Everyone thinks the magnetization is pretty slick. Things are big and cool and details and all the things that PP has always done well. Like most things, its just kind of wait and see until product becomes available. Until then I'm just getting my existing stuff ready to try out with the new rules and see what I think.


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MaxT wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
The answer seems pretty simple. PP hasn't really been making money off of Warmachine releases for.... a couple years now probably? MonPoc, the RPG, MiniCrate, probably even Warcaster to a degree are profitable enough apparently, and when you're not publicly traded, enough can actually just be enough, especially after cutting back as much as they have.

Ultimately the community is in a wait and see mode because until we get rules for our existing armies in October..... all we can do is wait and see. Right now is the time of anguish. Hype is good, but it'll burn out by October when people can actually start putting money down. I'd expect and hope for more hype in September leading up to the actual launch, as opposed to just the announcement.

• It will take at least until the end of 2023 before we can release MKIV rules conversions for all existing models.

You might get some of your existing armies in October. You could be waiting till 2024.

Every faction is getting armies in October. I suspect most people will have something from their collection that makes the cut unless they focused on something really niche. Again, all we can really do is wait and see, but I personally am not in a position to be concerned about having nothing to play in October.

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From the Warmachine FB page - this is apparently a production print of one of the components.