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Was looking at grey knights, now there are 2 transports for Strike squads, rhino''s or razorbacks. Now everyone is saying razorbacks, but if you stuck a 10 man squad in a rhino the squad can fire both psycannons out with the same effectiveness as the razorback, sure you only have a 24 inch range, but you fire as much as a standard assualt cannon, twice as effective if you do not move, and all the weapon destroyed results hurt storm bolters, maybe a hunter killer. Being that this army seems to be designed to live and die at about 24-12 inches is this a viable option. You can run the squad for 280ish I believe, which is maybe 40-50 points more then a 10 man sm tact squad or grey hunter squad in a rhino. Taking razorback option costs less for a 5-6 man squad yes, but this has more units and you can always combat squad ten guys, and when you put the nastier stuff out on the table your rhino's might be left alone. Thoughts?

None! Take a stormraven full of ninja deathcult assassins instead! XD

Ok, seriously though, I see what you're saying about the Rhino full of dudes with a couple of psycannons peeping out of the top hatch. It's a good strategy as you blast your way to the objectives or hold an objective in your own hands. Razorbacks seem to be able to put out just as much firepower for cheaper (like you also pointed out) but with 5 or 6 marines it's less apt to take/keep an objective like 10 marines. You also can't combat squad <10 marines.

In the end it depends on the mission at hand or for your preferences. I'd rather have the added flexibility that a rhino with 10 combat-squad-able marines gives than the straight up firepower of a razorback with 5-6 marines, but that's just me.

Also, in order to put 2 psycannons in a rhino you HAVE to take 10 men if you're running a strike squad. So, a 10 man SS with 2 psycannons will cost 220 points plus the 40 for a rhino. Another 40 for another Rhino if you wanted to combat squad them and put the other 5 in a transport. Then you just have 5 guys with storm bolters. Altogether, you're looking at 300 points to enable you to put two guys in a Rhino with 2 psycannons.

A 5 man purfier squad with 2 psycannons is 140 points, plus another 40 for the rhino - so 180 points. 360 points for two rhinos with 2 psycannons in each.

Of course, you could take a 5 man purgation squad with 2 psycannons for 180 points and they could sit in the rhino and use astral aim to shoot through any LOS blocking cover that was in front of the rhino - pretty good for defending an objective as they're unlikely to get hurt.

All in all, I'm not so sure about the strike squad. I'd be more tempted to take them with 1 psycannon per 5 but then your idea of two in a rhino obviously doesn't work.

ColdSadHungry wrote: Another 40 for another Rhino if you wanted to combat squad them and put the other 5 in a transport.

Everything else was fairly right, but this is just plain wrong.

You cannot take 2 rhinos for 1 Strike squad unit, you would have to take 2 squads; since he was planning on running 10 at this point, and further Transports can be snagged up(for a high cost) in both the FA+HS slots, and those Transports have some big guns; combat squad-ing and throwing 5 storm-bolter armed knights(likely that the Justicar would be one of them) in the assault vehicles is a less poor idea(but again the points gets very high).

Um you can't buy a second rhino for a strike squad one des. transport per unit. And to compare to purifiers, mine are scoring troops, which you need to take that god awful crowe character to do, and if your kitting a purifier squad out for shooting then you are not using one of the best CC units in the game right. Also my strike squads can totally screw over Deepstriking armies and help bring in my reserves much faster with communion. I am not saying that purifiers are not good, but tactical flexability goes to strike squads. You can charge enemy units that are softer and kill them, you can sit on your objective and shoot or carve through to an oppenents objective. Plus, I throw in a pallidin squad in a raven a scouting dreadknight, and an interceptor squad, his shooting will be going elsewhere. Purifiers are good but strike squads gel better with the rest of the army.

Normal SMs honestly only take ten man squads when you are required to for weapon options. There is no real benefit for GKs to take a full squad, other than to avoid taking up FOC slots. Strike squads are troops, so there is no benefit for taking full squads short of a coteaz list (just take more). Since only 1 cannon can be bought for a 5 man strike squad, a razorback is a better option. 1 HB back + ammo + 1 cannon strike squad = 160 pts. Rinse and reapeat. Run them into midfield, get out, with just the cannon peaking out, pop smoke on the razor. First turn you get 2 S7 shots per squad, but next turn you get 4 S7 shots per squad, and 3 TL S6 shots per razor. Totally worth the paltry points you pay for this.

Purifiers DO get 2 cannons per 5, so the 5 man squad with rhino works for them. 4-8 shots per turn assuming you move just 6 or don't move is nice indeed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

doubled wrote:Um you can't buy a second rhino for a strike squad one des. transport per unit. And to compare to purifiers, mine are scoring troops, which you need to take that god awful crowe character to do, and if your kitting a purifier squad out for shooting then you are not using one of the best CC units in the game right. Also my strike squads can totally screw over Deepstriking armies and help bring in my reserves much faster with communion. I am not saying that purifiers are not good, but tactical flexability goes to strike squads. You can charge enemy units that are softer and kill them, you can sit on your objective and shoot or carve through to an oppenents objective. Plus, I throw in a pallidin squad in a raven a scouting dreadknight, and an interceptor squad, his shooting will be going elsewhere. Purifiers are good but strike squads gel better with the rest of the army.

Purifiers aren't one of the best CC units in the game. They are really good at killing troops, but against real CC things, they quickly go away. It isn't just theory hammer, its play experience. They are just marines, and there is plenty of units that can make a mess of them. What they are good at is shooting up the enemy, and engaging in CC what remains. Missing out on 2 guys PWs isn't a deal breaker anyways, you still have 3 guys that have force weapons with 2 attacks each, and the power of cleansing flame.

notabot187 wrote:
Purifiers aren't one of the best CC units in the game. They are really good at killing troops, but against real CC things, they quickly go away. It isn't just theory hammer, its play experience. They are just marines, and there is plenty of units that can make a mess of them. What they are good at is shooting up the enemy, and engaging in CC what remains. Missing out on 2 guys PWs isn't a deal breaker anyways, you still have 3 guys that have force weapons with 2 attacks each, and the power of cleansing flame.

This! Finally someone who agrees! My experience with Purifiers is that they tend to die agains MEQs while doing some damage, while they're pretty decent against hordes. They're bu no means the End of Days that they've been hyped up to be though.

I dont think I've ever seen anyone claim that they're the best assault unit in the game.

They are, however, indisputably, the single best anti-horde CC unit in the game. There is nothing else that scales proportionately with the size/power/investment of the enemy unit like Purifiers do.

If it has a 5+ or 6+ save, Purifiers will beat it even with points disproportionate by 2-3x.

sourclams wrote:I dont think I've ever seen anyone claim that they're the best assault unit in the game.

They are, however, indisputably, the single best anti-horde CC unit in the game. There is nothing else that scales proportionately with the size/power/investment of the enemy unit like Purifiers do.

If it has a 5+ or 6+ save, Purifiers will beat it even with points disproportionate by 2-3x.

doubled claimed they were. It after all, was what I was replying to. I agree with the anti horde/crap save ability of the unit. Which is why I don't think it is a big deal to lose out on the PW attacks for better guns. PWs are almost wasted on crap save models after all. And cleansing flame is what does the real work anyways.

I tried running 10 purifiers with 2 psycannons and 8 with halberds in a stormraven twice so far. The idea, was to go "hey-diddle-diddle-up-the-middle" with them, get out, shoot the bjesus out of something and charge. All in all the performed well, except that by the end of the game there were 2 left, plus the libby who was helping them out. My verdict: they're ok. Considering it was 1500 point games, and i was running coatez, they were good at smacking up Beast masters and DW termies. I have no illusion however, that they are a dedicated cc unit. Killing a beastmaster unit consisting of 5 beastmaster, 6 razorwings, 10 khymarea, i survived with 2. Nevermind the termies. Next time, I will prob just run 10 w/ 4 psycannons and 6 halberds. Park em somewhere and light something up. I will only engage in cc reluctantly after i have spent a turn or two shooting.

I never said they were the best CC unit in the game, that honour goes to something else, however on the charge they can hold their own with the likes of khone berzerkers, or BA death company, hell a palladin squad allocated and kitted out is far superior as an assualt unit, however purifiers are very good for their points and one of the best cost effective CC units in the game. Do not confuse me saying something is very good with me saying something is the best. No they are not the best assualt unit in the game, and that in itself would be a very debated thread.

Now what I said was the strike squads in rhinos are as effective as min squads in an Rback, a total immunity to anything str 4 or less, and constant firepower, plus the ability to hold 2 objectives in a game, combat squad leave justicar and 5 guys on a back objective and throw the psycannons up in the rhino. I am trying to determine if there is a superior choice or both are simply good and it depends more on style and the rest of your list.

well, sorry for going off on a tangent, as i tend to do from time to time. Well, between the two, my money is on 5 man Strike Squad w/RB. While I don't use them because I find taking henchmen more easy on my wallet, I would say this configuration makes them more points efficient. On the other hand, giving the RB an assault cannon with psyammo is pretty money too. A bit expensive, but fun would be to take 10 Strike Squad with 2 psycannons with a RB asscan w/ psyammo. Combat squad them so the 5 w/o psycannons chill in the RB while you basically get 3 psycannons for 1 troop slot. Oh, there I go on my tangent again, my bad.

doubled wrote:then you are not using one of the best CC units in the game right.

Man, I could have sworn that is what you said... Oh, because it IS. You didn't qualify it then, but you are now? Now it is just "cost effective" CC units in the game.

doubled wrote:Do not confuse me saying something is very good with me saying something is the best

So it is just "very good" now, and not "one of the best".

Also, hanging tough with zerkers and DC isn't all that exciting, I already to that with DE wyches, and they are way cheaper than either of those units, and even GKs. Of course those wyches still die to purifiers, but that is solely on cleansing flame.

yes I said "one of the best CC units in the game", what I did not say is "The BEST CC unit in the game" so please make sure you clearly read what I write. You cannot be considered one of the best at something without being very good, you seem to be looking for an argument here where there shouldn't be any, this is a friendly posting site or so I thought. Also your own post you state that purifiers kill wyches so does that mean that purifiers are better than wyches?? No they are not, they simply have an ability that damages targets before they can strike limiting incoming damage. Those same wyches last immeasurably longer then purifiers against TH/SS termies, but that is soley to a 4+ invul in close combat and amount of attacks. So now lets take into account everything we have learned. NFW shred MEQ without a good invul and can kill models before they can even strike limiting incoming damge. They also absolutely wreck any lightly armoured horde they hit due to forcing half the unit to take a save before anything happens. Explain to me how they cannot be considered one of the best CC units in the game with that much versistility for 180 points that includes some extra shooting and a transport. Now before this gets into mudflinging lets step back a moment.
Sourclams stated
"I don't think I've ever seen anyone claim that they're the best assault unit in the game."
notabot you then replied
"doubled claimed they were."

Now I believe they are one of the best CC units in the game, and that is my opinion based on play experience thus far, and I am entitled to my opinion as is everyone on dakka. What I did not say was that they were the best CC unit in the game.
We can choose to disagree but please show the same respect to my opinion and myself as you wish to be given yourself.

If you take GKSS, keep it simple.

5 guys, 1 psycannon in a psyrazorback.

160pts and call it a day. Taking 10 and putting it in a rhino is a mistake imo.

I think its based on style and list ... there is clear value in both ...
In most cases (considering these options) I think most Would stick with 5 and a razor.

Again, I agree that the "best" option would become more clear depending on the rest of your list and your personal / desired play-style.

I don't care what anyone says. My purifier squad filled with 4 incinerators and 6 halberds took out with one swing 9 zerkers AND Karne. They then shot down 2 oblits, then joined an assault to kill a lord and the remaining one plague marine and 6 raptors.

As an eldar player i understand the sheer awesome power that power weapons bring to the table when facing MEQ when all, or almost all squd members are equipped, especially when you go first with them. I lost 5 of them and they killed almost half of the oponents army. The trick is knowing when to use hammerhand instead of cleansing flame, and i would say that if you get the assault on MEQ then hammerhand is normally better with 10 or less marines.

We can all agree on their power vs horde in CC. So I would agree that they are one of the best CC squads in the game.

Also the mathhammer shows that with 6 falchions, including shooting, this squad can one shot (or almost one shot) almost every squad in the game as long as you can shoot and get the assault. I can show the numbers if need be, but i didn't write the down, i'll have to calculate again.

I would have to say that not only are they one of the best, if you get the assault they could very well be the best. They are the only assaulty squad I can think of that is effective vs both horde and MEQ. If I've missed something please let me know.

Sothas wrote:I don't care what anyone says. My purifier squad filled with 4 incinerators and 6 halberds took out with one swing 9 zerkers AND Karne. They then shot down 2 oblits, then joined an assault to kill a lord and the remaining one plague marine and 6 raptors.

This right here says enough.

Raptors? Karne? Zerks? Really?

That's terribad. I can't even imagine what was good in that list outside of the 2 oblits.

IDK

they do have 3+ saves and correct me here but don't the berserker's often come pumped with feel no pain?

I can see them (purifiers) running all 3 ways described here ...

They are a pretty versatile unit.



I could easily 2nd "one of the best"

- some of the best weapon options (ranged and CC)

- access to vehicles (finally)(@least reasonably priced)

- can be troops II

- 2 attacks base

- can increase str or cleansing flame (hell even a bad decision here = your opponent rollin dice)

- and they are all Force Weapons

they are pretty nice man! IMO

Btw I hope this isn't read as argumentative ... I'm asking for road signs too if I'm lost as well!

quietus wrote:IDK

they do have 3+ saves and correct me here but don't the berserker's often come pumped with feel no pain?

I am not totally familiar with the chaos marine codex, but I don't believe there is any way to give zerks fnp.

quietus wrote:
I can see them (purifiers) running all 3 ways described here ...

They are a pretty versatile unit.



I could easily 2nd "one of the best"

- some of the best weapon options (ranged and CC)

- access to vehicles (finally)(@least reasonably priced)

- can be troops II

- 2 attacks base

- can increase str or cleansing flame (hell even a bad decision here = your opponent rollin dice)

- and they are all Force Weapons

they are pretty nice man! IMO

Btw I hope this isn't read as argumentative ... I'm asking for road signs too if I'm lost as well!

I don't doubt there versatility. However, I believe the argument is that they are the best CC unit in the game.

Are they a solid unit? Yes.

Do they fit a good role for the GK's? Yes.

Are they the best CC unit in the game? No. Period.

Actually the original topic was asking is there anything horribly wrong with a 10 man strike squad in a rhino with 2 psycannons, and things have sorta devolved.

doubled wrote:Actually the original topic was asking is there anything horribly wrong with a 10 man strike squad in a rhino with 2 psycannons, and things have sorta devolved.

Ahh...

Yes.

I now return you to your original programming.

I am waiting for IRBABOON to make an appearance.

Nah someone miss read his post early and thought he ment THE BEST ... He meant one Of the Best!

as far as the fnp ... its been a long long long time lol

notabot187 wrote:
Also, hanging tough with zerkers and DC isn't all that exciting, I already to that with DE wyches, and they are way cheaper than either of those units, and even GKs. Of course those wyches still die to purifiers, but that is solely on cleansing flame.

A much better comparison in the DE book are Incubi
similar cost, power weapons, same save.
I imagine the purifiers would win but its a close fight. The purifiers need halberds to strike first but the Incubi can power up with PFP, which will help them ignore clensing flame and get FC, which would put them simo with Halberds. The incubi really only gain from their WS5 and they really lose out from not having a shooting weapon or grenades but being cheaper and having access to cheap assault vehicles does have its selling points.

Sothas wrote:
I would have to say that not only are they one of the best, if you get the assault they could very well be the best. They are the only assaulty squad I can think of that is effective vs both horde and MEQ.

BT assault terminators with lightning claws. 4 reroll everything S5I5 attacks on the charge per model. More expensive than purifiers? Yes. Will they wipe almost anything on a charge? Hell yes!

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Sothas wrote:
I would have to say that not only are they one of the best, if you get the assault they could very well be the best. They are the only assaulty squad I can think of that is effective vs both horde and MEQ.

BT assault terminators with lightning claws. 4 reroll everything S5I5 attacks on the charge per model. More expensive than purifiers? Yes. Will they wipe almost anything on a charge? Hell yes!

Hehe, yes. Intil you runn into halberds, I6 S5 and they are cheaper the the terminators.

However all of this comparisong is very strange since it really depends on your list. If you bring more long ranged weaponds then your oponent there is a mutch bigger chance that your purifiers make it into close combat since he will have to come to you.

Aslo some people compare them to DE. This is odd considering that DE have fast skimmer open topped transports and a lott of lances. Chanches are that they will perform very diferently on the tabletop.