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This may all seem pretty standard, and that would be because I researched some of the lists in here before so I apologize if this looks strikingly similar to someone 's list in here.

HQ
1 Archon w/ Agonizer, Shadow Field, phantasm grenade launcher
-135
x2 Haemy
1 w/ liquifier
1 w/ liquifier and shatter shard
-145

Elites
x4 Incubi in a venom
-143

Troops
x8 wyches and 1 Hekatrix
Agonizer, haywire grenades, raider w/ flickerfield
-208

x8 wyches and 1 Hekatrix
Agonizer, haywire grenades, raider w/ flickerfield
-208

x10 kabalites in a raider w/ flickerfield
-160

Fast
x4 Beastmaster 48
x4 razorwing flock 60
x4 Khymerae 48
156

Heavy
Ravager w/Flicker Field 115
Ravager w/Flicker Field 115
Ravager w/Flicker Field 115

1500

Simple stuff here. haemys go with wyches, archon goes with incubi.
My main questions are... Have I outfitted my Achon sufficiently? Is the haemy with both a liquifier and a shatter shard necessary? (I just felt he needed to equip something else because the shatter shard is only one shot.) I feel like the wyches could really use hydra gauntlets but I am having a problem coming up with the points. Are they going to be damaging enough in close combat without any further upgrades? I also am unsure of my fast attack choice. I like that almost my entire army can move at incredible speed. But the beasts can really only assault at incredible speed. Would helions be a better choice?

I also am considering removing the 3 raiders and giving the Archon a WWP. If I do this I can afford a 4 man squad of trueborn with blasters in a venom with a canon. I guess this really depends on what missions I am intend to play though.

Please dissect with extreme prejudice, as if you just completely annihilated this army. Tell me how it was so easy.

Ysclyth wrote:Please dissect with extreme prejudice, as if you just completely annihilated this army. Tell me how it was so easy.

Done and done.

HQ
1 Archon w/ Agonizer, Shadow Field, phantasm grenade launcher
-135
x2 Haemy
1 w/ liquifier
1 w/ liquifier and shatter shard
-145

No issues here with the basic loadouts, though at 1500 I don't really see the Shattershard earning its keep, but that is a value call. Frankly, at 1500 I don't see the value in having the Archon at all considering for his slot cost you could take an entire additional Troop selection that I pretty much assure you would be more potent in combat and worth more value to your army overall.

Elites
x4 Incubi in a venom
-143

For 10 points you can get a second splinter cannon which drastically increases the power of the Venom at attacking infantry and MCs. It's silly not to go for such a minor investment that so drastically increases the damage outut, especially considering how many points you're sinking into some random extra bodies later in the list.

Troops
x8 wyches and 1 Hekatrix
Agonizer, haywire grenades, raider w/ flickerfield
-208

Solid selection here, though at 1500 you *could* save points and drop one Wych off each squad - bit of a personal value call and depends on what you're using your Wyches for, of course.

x10 kabalites in a raider w/ flickerfield
-160

Hi, we're 10 random guys. We weren't given a Blaster or a Splinter Cannon because no one is quite sure what our purpose in this list is. Also, we're eating up 160 points and a Troop slot to buy 1 dark lance and a few rifles.

This unit choice is *terrible*. You don't have a clear idea what you're doing with these guys and they are very much tacked on. I'd drop them, combine them with the points you saved by dropping the Archon, and basically buy two Troop selections for the points and have a much more focused and damage capable army for my troubles.

5 Warriors with a Blaster in a Raider will give you better anti-tank, and 5 warriors with a Blaster in a Venom w. Splinter Cannon upgrade will give you better anti-infantry. Both units are cheaper and superior to the unit you currently have.

Fast
x4 Beastmaster 48
x4 razorwing flock 60
x4 Khymerae 48
156

Considering their cost and the fact they aren't a Troop selection I somewhat wonder what their value is as compared to just taking another squad of Wyches. Neutral on these - not brilliant, but not terrible either. You could probably refocus the points to a better use, but it sort of depends on what you want your army to do - considering you appear to be going for assault oriented I'd be looking to get another full squad of Wyches over tacking on some beasts like this.

Heavy
Ravager w/Flicker Field 115
Ravager w/Flicker Field 115
Ravager w/Flicker Field 115

Nothing to complain about here.

I'd advise against going WWP if you want to be optimally competitive.

Thor pretty much hit it on the head.

A WWP list would look much different lol

HQ
No issues here with the basic loadouts, though at 1500 I don't really see the Shattershard earning its keep, but that is a value call. Frankly, at 1500 I don't see the value in having the Archon at all considering for his slot cost you could take an entire additional Troop selection that I pretty much assure you would be more potent in combat and worth more value to your army overall.

Will drop the shattershard I thought its use was all dankness on elite units, But I'd definitely like to make more improvements in other parts of me list. But I am keen on keeping the archon, I'd like to give my incubi the ability to assault through cover, and essentially not have to worry about what is in their way.

For 10 points you can get a second splinter cannon which drastically increases the power of the Venom at attacking infantry and MCs. It's silly not to go for such a minor investment that so drastically increases the damage outut, especially considering how many points you're sinking into some random extra bodies later in the list.

I had seen this as an important upgrade, but just couldnt find the points. With some new changes i'll be sure to add it.

Troops
at 1500 you *could* save points and drop one Wych off each squad - bit of a personal value call and depends on what you're using your Wyches for, of course

I suppose the way I see it is with purchasing a raider, I am essentially paying for the transport capacity. Delivering my deadly assault at anything but maximum capacity I see as a simple waste of space and points spent on the raider. This may be a silly way to look at it though. But I will see what I can get with these extra points.

This unit choice is *terrible*. You don't have a clear idea what you're doing with these guys and they are very much tacked on. I'd drop them, combine them with the points you saved by dropping the Archon, and basically buy two Troop selections for the points and have a much more focused and damage capable army for my troubles. 0

5 Warriors with a Blaster in a Raider will give you better anti-tank, and 5 warriors with a Blaster in a Venom w. Splinter Cannon upgrade will give you better anti-infantry. Both units are cheaper and superior to the unit you currently have.

I see your point. My general idea was in my previous list I had more wyches instead, and then I thought that I was way to focused on assault. I wanted a gunboat to basically support the wyches. The gunboat would get in rapid fire range, and work on thinning numbers of anyone who would shoot at vulnerable wyches out of close combat.I wanted them to be cheap so that their threat looked minimal.
However I suppose I need to optimize them, and I will work on that in my next version of my list.

Fast
Considering their cost and the fact they aren't a Troop selection I somewhat wonder what their value is as compared to just taking another squad of Wyches. Neutral on these - not brilliant, but not terrible either. You could probably refocus the points to a better use, but it sort of depends on what you want your army to do - considering you appear to be going for assault oriented I'd be looking to get another full squad of Wyches over tacking on some beasts like this.

Well, you basically just repeated what I am thinking. I am focused on assault, and I was just wondering why I would choose the beasts over more wyches. My answer to myself was that I didnt have to pay to get them a raider. and since the are fast I can spend less points for a squad with lots of attacks and some moderate resilience. I really want to see everything moving in and striking simultaneously. I think the beasts cannot accomplish this because they will likely fall a turn behind the wyches.

I will rework the list mainly rethinking how to outfit the warriors. But just so I understand are you advising against 10 warriors in a raider, or is the problem simply that I don't have them outfitted to any specific purpose? Because I'd like to keep a gunboat. I just want it cost effective.

I will also try to figure out what I could get for the beasts.

Ysclyth wrote:I will rework the list mainly rethinking how to outfit the warriors. But just so I understand are you advising against 10 warriors in a raider, or is the problem simply that I don't have them outfitted to any specific purpose? Because I'd like to keep a gunboat. I just want it cost effective.

Don't get me wrong, I love Gunboats and there was a period here where I was probably the biggest advocate of Gunboat builds for DE on site (possibly I still am, though I'm really not sure what Ketara is running right now). The issue is just that they are not an optimal Gunboat to my mind, let's consider this for a second;

Your Build
x10 kabalites in a raider w/ flickerfield
160 points

Anti infantry - 10-20 poison shots generally with the Raider moving 6" or not at all. [short-medium range]
Anti-mech - 1 Str 8 lance shot with the Raider moving up to 12" [long range]

The "Classic" Gunboat Build
x10 Warriors, Blaster and S.Cannon in a Raider w/ flickerfield
185 points

Anti infantry - 15-24 poison shots generally with the Raider moving 6" or not at all. [short-long range]
Anti-mech - 1 Str 8 lance shot with the Raider moving up to 12" [long range] 1 Str 8 Lance shot with the Raider moving 6" or not at all [short range]


"My" Gunboat Build
x5 Warriors, Blaster in a Venom w/ S.Cannon upgrade
125 points

Anti infantry - 12 poison shots with the Venom moving 12". [long range]
Anti-mech - 1 Str 8 Lance shot with the Venom moving 6" or not at all [short range]

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, as you can see, there are a lot of options and price ranges to accomplish various goals. Where your build falls short is that for relatively minor extra points (25) it can be made significantly more dangerous, or, for similar point savings (35) it can be modified to be almost as good but with now extra points to put elsewhere. Also, note that I keep track of range and how much movement is allowed in the various builds, because the entire logic behind playing an army that can field 1850 points all in fast skimmers is to take advantage of having an army in fast skimmers - so mobility and movement are very important to the DE. Yeah, the optimal spread of 20 rapid fire shots from your men is nice - but if the Venom can do 12 shots the round before your men are in range, and then 12 more the next round it's functionally done 24 shots in the time it took you to set up 20 - alpha strike is very important, as every dead model is one less model trying to hurt your precious glass cannon.

To make a long answer short (too late) what I'm advising against is not knowing what you want those Warriors to do. Maybe your current build is perfect for what they'll be doing, but you need to have a clear idea of their purpose and how it will help you win, and then you need to consider what other units/builds could maybe do the same job better or for less points. That's the heart and soul of list building.

Ok I've taken into consideration your comments from before and modified my list significantly
Archon
Agonizer, Shadow Field, phantasm grenade launcher
-135

x3 Haemy w/liquifiers
-180

Elites
x4 Incubi
in a venom /w extra splinter cannon
-153

Troops

x7 wyches and 1 Hekatrix
Agonizer, haywire grenades raider flickerfield
-196

x6 wyches and 1 Hekatrix
Agonizer, haywire grenades raider flickerfield
-184

x6 wyches and 1 Hekatrix
Agonizer, haywire grenades raider flickerfield
-184

x5 warriors
blaster, in a venom /w extra splinter cannon
-125


Heavy
Ravager w/Flicker Field 115
Ravager w/Flicker Field 115
Ravager w/Flicker Field 115


1502

So basically as you can tell I dropped the beasts, the 10 man no upgrade gun boat, and added an extra squad of wyches and a haemy to go with them. But of the two gunboat builds you mentioned it seemed like yours was the most affordable to me while still being effective and cost efficient. But in order to afford it I had to drop the wych squads down to 8, 7 and 7 units not including the haemy going with them. Let me know if you think I'm cutting back my wyches too much for the sake of this gunboat. I think the 4 incubi, the 3 haemys, the archon, 22 wyches will likely be enough considering the armys ability to get that alpha strike. Although I'd still like to find a way to work in that "classic build" for the gunboat. It seems it would not be possible without sacrificing apart of what my army was meant to do, and that is assault.

so
- beasts
- 10 man gunboat
- shattershard
+4 wyches
+1 raider (for divided wych units)
+1 haemy
+5 man venom gun boat.
+1 splinter cannon in incubi venon

Sorry for the bump but I just had a question. Would dropping a ravager leave me with too few anti mech weapons in a 1500 point army.

Because if I dropped one. I could change the gunboat, to a raider with 10 warriors w/ a blater and s. cannon, and fill out my wych squads to have 9 in two and 8 in one.

I would still have 10 Dark Lances, and the one blaster. Basically loosing two Dark lances for the filled up squads.

I felt like investing in another haemy when I only added 4 wyches was kinda a waste of points, so Id like to fill out those wych squads. Only way I can see to do it is drop a ravager or drop the archon(I dont want to )

I'd personally say an Archon is less needed in a DE list than a Ravager.

That said; the real question you're asking is one that's difficult to answer accurately. To answer it my question would be; how many vehicles show up in the games you're likely to be playing?

Where I play we have competitive nights and not so competitive ones. I could see fielding less lances on the not so competitive nights because lots of players will only be bringing 3-5 vehicles tops.

In competitive play, generally almost everything is in a vehicle, because that's a dominant strategy in 40k right now, and I would never advise taking a weak array of anti-mech to those games.

Ask yourself where you're likely to fall on that spectrum.

Heck, bring the list with less lances and just see how it works/doesn't work for you. There is no perfect answer to this question (though the "answer" I came up with to give to players going to competitive tourneys is aim for roughly 1 lance per 100 points in the army - but even that isn't a true gold standard, it just gets their minds thinking the right way for competitive play).

Ok as far as my list is concerned, I'd like it to be moderately competative. Not planning to do big tourneys, but I'd still like to be able to win consistently.

So I am considering departing from my assault focused list and make it a little more balanced. I dont want to spend 60 points on another haemy for an an extra 4 wyches, and I dont like raiders not filling to capacity. But I don't really want a wych squad in this list without a haemy so I am considering just dropping it altogether and adding another gunboat, while filling the wych squads to raider capacity. With the extra points, saved, I was able to get shardnets on both of the remaining wych squads. (maybe the 20 points could be better put somewhere else to ehance cc, maybe something giving more survivability?

Archon
Agonizer, Shadow Field, phantasm grenade launcher
-135

x2 Haemy w/liquifiers
-120

Elites
x4 Incubi
in a venom /w extra splinter cannon
-153

Troops

x8 wyches and 1 Hekatrix
Agonizer, shardnets, haywire grenades, raider flickerfield
-218

x8 wyches and 1 Hekatrix
Agonizer, shardnets, haywire grenades, raider flickerfield
-218

x10 Warriors, Blaster and S.Cannon in a Raider w/ flickerfield
185 points

x5 warriors
blaster, in a venom /w extra splinter cannon
-125


Heavy
Ravager w/Flicker Field
-115
Ravager w/Flicker Field
-115
Ravager w/Flicker Field
-115

I suppose the question is, will 3 assault squads be able to hold their own in assault, so that the gunboats can get into a position to pick off anyone who would join the fray or wipe a squad out.