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So I've been pouring over the Codex for a week or so now and I'm slowly coming to the realization that Grey Knights really don't have the flexibility that some other armies have. With 5th edition, target saturation and durability are key, and the basic infantry options available to Grey Knights are both melee oriented units that can take a Psycannon for added firepower. The big issue is that those basic infantry units are quite expensive for what they have to offer, especially when taken at full size, and since both are assault oriented they tend to need a Land Raider or Storm Raven to get into combat, which drives up the price even more. The solution I have found is to run MSU with Dreadnought support, which is not exactly my idea of an interesting list.

Most of my trial builds have come out looking something like this:

Coteaz - 100
5 Purifiers (2x Psycannon, Hammer, 2x Halberds, Rhino) - 189
5 Purifiers (2x Psycannon, Hammer, 2x Halberds, Rhino) - 189
5 Purifiers (2x Psycannon, Hammer, 2x Halberds, Rhino) - 189
5 Strike (Psycannon, Hammer, Rhino) - 160
5 Strike (Psycannon, Hammer, Rhino) - 160
5 Strike (Psycannon, Halberd, Rhino) - 155
5 Strike (Psycannon, Rhino) - 150
5 Strike (Psycannon, Rhino) - 150
5 Strike (Psycannon, Rhino) - 150
Dreadnought (2x TL Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo) - 135
Dreadnought (2x TL Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo) - 135
Dreadnought (2x TL Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo) - 135
Total 1,998

Grey Knights have no option for a Power Armored commander above a Brotherhood Captain, and they aren't exactly impressive even with a rerollable 2+ and 4++ in combat if they don't attack. Grand Masters and Librarians are awesome commanders but without the ability to stick them in a Rhino your only options for transport are a Stormraven or Land Raider which is quite expensive. It seems for competitive play they can either do a Death Star with Grand Master + Paladins or Purifiers, or a cheap commander (Inquisitor) and a bunch of tiny units with Dreadnought support.

Thoughts? Ideas for competitive lists beyond MSU? All input is welcome.

GK are a tough nut to crack in many ways. I actually feel like MSU mechanized is playing to their comparative weaknesses, rather then strength.
I feel like their are a few things to consider in this:
1) Each Grey Knight unit is a dual threat, capable of solid mid-range shooting and good heavy melee. Therefore, any decent sized unit is a capable threat.
2) Grey Knight vehicles require less target saturation then other lists due to fortitude. This makes enemies shoot to kill/disable, not just stun/shake.
3) Most Grey Knights units can deepstrike, or outflank with the help of a Grand Master.
4) They have access to the largest variety of
A) HQ's: Of various prices, all of which can be effective.
B) Transports, with a staggering 5 (7 with variants) transports. Only 2(3) are dedicated however.


To me, all of this points to armies that break away from the cookie cutter and do not require quite as much target saturation and redundancy as other lists. Sure, DE armies fear Psyrifle dreads the most, but a Purifier squad with Strength 5 Storm Bolters and 4 Psycannons is almost as dangerous. Or the Razorback with 3 TL Str 6 shots. Or the Dreaknight with Heavy Incinerator. Or the Vindicaire.
I think you replace "Target Saturation" with "Threat saturation" and a clearer picture of a GK mentality is presented, where nearly everything in the army can still be threatening.
I think Deep Striking and Foot Slogging lists can be nearly as competitive as a MSU mech list. All 3 of which I feel are viable. For example, at 2000:

2xOrdo Malleus Inquisitor in Termie Armour, with Psycannon and psyker upgrade with Psychic Communion. 5x Servo Skull(total). -235
5x Warrior Henchman with 3x Plasma Gun, in Chimera. -105
1xPaladin w/MC Daemonhammer -60
1xPaladin w/MC Daemonhammer -60
1xPaladin w/MC Daemonhammer -60
10x Grey Knight Terminator Squad with 2xPsycannon - 450
10x Grey Knight Terminator Squad with 2xPsycannon - 450
10x Grey Knight Strike Squad with 2xPsycannon, Psybolt Ammo - 240
Dreadknight with Heavy Incinerator -170
Dreadknight with Heavy Incinerator -170

Everything but the chimera is held in Reserve to DS Second turn, using skulls. Everything is fairly well equipped to handle cc and is a credible shooting threat. Combat squad can make it work more like a MSU list, but in KP games you give up only 12 if you keep your big squads together. Against other DS lists, you have warp quake (Start them on the board) or against enemy warpquakes, you have a decent foot based list.

I dunno, I think GK just takes a little thinking outside the box. I have a feeling what eventually emerges out of the codex will be something pretty unique.
Anyway, those are my thoughts.

Those are some great points, and ones I had not thought of which is why I posted this thread. I actually made an interesting/amusing mech list that I think I will test out at the 1,850 range and see how it does:

Grand Master (Rad Grenades) - 190
Librarian (Shrouding, Sanctuary, Might) - 165
8 Purifiers (2x Psycannon, 5x Halberds, MC Daemon Hammer) - 232
10 Strike (2x Psycannon, Daemon Hammer) - 230
5 Strike (Psycannon, Daemon Hammer, Rhino) - 160
5 Strike (Psycannon, Daemon Hammer, Rhino) - 160
Storm Raven (Assault Cannon, Multi-Melta, Psybolt) - 225
Storm Raven (Assault Cannon, Multi-Melta, Psybolt) - 225
Dreadnought (Assault Cannon, Psybolt Ammo) - 130
Dreadnought (Assault Cannon, Psybolt Ammo) - 130
Total 1,847

Edit: Adjusted the list slightly. Everything starts in reserve and the Storm Ravens flat-out onto the board using Shrouding to gain a 3+ cover save. This list would be particularly adept at using the Dawn of War deployment type and going 2nd.

Not sure why you took coteaz in the first list and why you discarded the idea of the suicide bomb so quickly? Brotherchampions are great ways of getting rid of tough HQs.

I really think the Gks can do all sorts of lists. I think bizarrelly they may even be best at 1000 points (see my 1000 point madness list with duel Terminator Landraider silliness).

I think they are viable as a footlist too with some very useful Libby powers. They deathstar better than anyone with 5 attacks each from your basic guys on the charge that can be buffed to whatever strength you want and go at I10 and do 2d6 armour pen, making them monstrous.

Psybolt razorback are good. MSU is obviously a forte. The Grandmaster allows all sorts of shennigans. Coteaz opens up all sorts of wierd lists.

Remember unlike a tac marine a Grey Knight is a master of all trades!

Took Coteaz in the first list to give a better chance of going first, either by seizing or preventing my opponent from doing so, as well as Dark Excommunitcation and all that. Though i just noticed his lack of an Invbulnerable Save, and a Brotherhood Champion is looking a lot better for that list now.

I guess I just need to mess with the book a bit and playtest to get a feel for the units.

One legit weakness I am seeing is a lack of elites and fast attack ranged support choices. Most other Space Marine Chapters have access to Dreadnoughts as Elite choices, and Land Speeders as Fast Attack. Inexpensive supporting units to fill slots you wouldn't use ordinarily. Grey Knights also lack Predators which is a big hit to firepower. Dreadnoughts taking up the same slots as Land Raiders and Dreadknights means you have to make some tough choices if you want your list to include any ranged firepower that can shoot beyond 24".

Dual Land Raider lists at low points might work, but at higher points you lack the slots to give them any real support. No Dedicated Transport options for Land Raiders means you have one heavy slot left and not a lot of good options to fill it, and since you cannot take Dreadnoughts as elites you are stuck with Venerable Dreadnoughts or Terminators to offer support. Grey Knights might need less target saturation than other chapters, but most armies have enough Melta to deal with a pair of Land Raiders unless there is something else to draw fire, and Rhinos don't do that so well, even with Strike Squads and Purifiers inside. I'm not saying it's bad....it's just.....different. The organization is going to take some getting used to.

Dual Land Raider lists at low points might work, but at higher points you lack the slots to give them any real support.

That was my entire point you wouldn;t run it at higher points value but to get duel LR filled with good killing power at 1k will be very difficult to deal with for most armies.

As you say HS is where the tough choices are. Psyfleman dread seems eth best but forces you down an MSU route. No cheap fire power for you unless you go foot and are happy with a 24" range.

Psycannons are brutal AT fire for te points though. Against AV14 they are the equivalent of 2.67 Lascannons!

Your list is pretty much identical to mine except swithc Cortez for a Xenos Inquisitor.

FlingitNow wrote:
As you say HS is where the tough choices are. Psyfleman dread seems eth best but forces you down an MSU route. No cheap fire power for you unless you go foot and are happy with a 24" range.

This is the hang-up for me. The lack of choices for ranged firepower means you have some tough decisions to make at the Heavy Support level.

I did have one idea though. Stormravens fix the firepower issue, since they have a ton of firepower and free up heavy choices. They are normally a bit fragile for their cost and as such they aren't usually a great idea, however if you reserve them, then Flat-Out onto the board, a Librarian can cast The Shrouding to increase their cover save to a 3+ and make them a bit harder to put down. This also means you get into your opponents face a little quicker, and if you go 2nd you are almost guaranteed the first shot via PotMS. The second list I posted could take advantage of this quite well. I also like the idea of 2x Librarians with Might/Shrouding/Sanctuary, 2x units of Purifiers and 2x Storm Ravens backed up by Strike Squads in Rhinos and Dreadnoughts. You can even drop the Dreadnoughts off after the Flat-Out move and have them shoot.

FlingitNow wrote:Psycannons are brutal AT fire for te points though. Against AV14 they are the equivalent of 2.67 Lascannons!

Yeah they are! Best AT weapon besides a Meltagun/Multi-Melta, and against AV10 and 11 I think it surpasses even those. I would have to do the math to be sure but either way they are pretty awesome if you can get close enough to use them.

Take that SR list and switch out the GM for another libby. You can't give the SR scout so the benefit of the GM is somewhat limited so another LIbby seems a more logical choice.

I'd then find room for a 2nd unit of purifiers and play around with both units. Falcions + Might of Titan and Quickening menas 5 S6 I10 attacks each on the charge with Hammerhand. You'll kill anything you touch (or S5 and ID).

When dealing with Horde's the cheap and effective way is basic Purifier squad with a nemesis warding stave.

Relatively cheap and can take out swaths and swaths.

According to my Mathhammer a 30 Ork boyz would be whittled down too 17 just by the special power.

Not to shabby for a 145P Squad.

Not so sure. As above, Grey Tide can work.

Crowe - 150

10 Purifiers with 4 Psycannons, 6 Halberds - 292
10 Purifiers with 4 Psycannons, 6 Halberds - 292
10 Purifiers with 4 Psycannons, 6 Halberds - 292
10 Purifiers with 4 Psycannons, 6 Halberds - 292
5 Purifiers with 2 Psycannons, 3 Halberds - 146

5 Purgs with 4 Psycannons - 180
5 Purgs with 4 Psycannons - 180
5 Purgs with 4 Psycannons - 180

Got the ground presence, got the Halberds as insurance against incoming assaults, got the Purgs with Astral Aim to screw anyone that hides from the oncoming Grey Tide. Incidentally, having test-driven the above twice - once on Vassal against GK, once IRL against Eldar - and won more than convincingly both times, I reckon it's a more than viable option.

InquisitorVaron wrote:When dealing with Horde's the cheap and effective way is basic Purifier squad with a nemesis warding stave.

Relatively cheap and can take out swaths and swaths.

According to my Mathhammer a 30 Ork boyz would be whittled down too 17 just by the special power.

Not to shabby for a 145P Squad.

Nemesis halberds...?

Nah. Warding stave all the way. 2+ Inv should keep you around long enough to use the power. Halberds just take a couple with them before the Orks get to hit back.

Why do you want 2+ invulnerable on a single model when Orks cause minimum invulnerable saves? If a Nob in a Boyz unit hits and wounds with two attacks then one Grey Knight is still going to die.

Even with one model they still can use there power I assume. He should take the blows considering the rest of the army would probably have taken a chunk out.

Anyway if a couple die he should survive and well wreak havoc with the Purifier flame power.

I'm not following. Cleansing flame is done before blows are struck so 2+ invulnerable doesn't come into it. The 2+ invulnerable is useful for power weap attacks, Orks don't have a lot of these unless Nobz or Burnas. Against a normal Boyz mob the Nob will kill one Grey Knight out right and then one with the warding stave will get the save, depends how many Grey Knights are left are the Boyz attack too.

mercer wrote:I'm not following. Cleansing flame is done before blows are struck so 2+ invulnerable doesn't come into it. The 2+ invulnerable is useful for power weap attacks, Orks don't have a lot of these unless Nobz or Burnas. Against a normal Boyz mob the Nob will kill one Grey Knight out right and then one with the warding stave will get the save, depends how many Grey Knights are left are the Boyz attack too.

I think his mentality is that the 2++ will keep your KoF alive for subsequent rounds of combat, letting you just sit there and stall and use cleansing flame repeatedly (I may be wrong). However, I'd agree with Mercer that it wouldn't work/be worth the points.

The sequence is something like: cleansing flame, half the unit takes a wound, a couple pass saves, we've got 17 or so left. GK's attack and kill a handful, at least 10 are left. If the KoF is going to die, it will be due to volume of attacks, not the one hidden powerklaw which you could just put onto a different GK during wound allocations. Against volume of attacks, 2+ or 3+ isn't going to be a monumental difference worth the warding stave price tag.

The issue I see with this list here is that you are really, really hoping you don't come up against an army which can outshoot you - true only alpha wolves or guard can do that, but still. The other worry would be bi/tri land raiders- you would be putting a lot of faith in pinning.

Popsicle wrote:Not so sure. As above, Grey Tide can work.

Crowe - 150

10 Purifiers with 4 Psycannons, 6 Halberds - 292
10 Purifiers with 4 Psycannons, 6 Halberds - 292
10 Purifiers with 4 Psycannons, 6 Halberds - 292
10 Purifiers with 4 Psycannons, 6 Halberds - 292
5 Purifiers with 2 Psycannons, 3 Halberds - 146

5 Purgs with 4 Psycannons - 180
5 Purgs with 4 Psycannons - 180
5 Purgs with 4 Psycannons - 180

Got the ground presence, got the Halberds as insurance against incoming assaults, got the Purgs with Astral Aim to screw anyone that hides from the oncoming Grey Tide. Incidentally, having test-driven the above twice - once on Vassal against GK, once IRL against Eldar - and won more than convincingly both times, I reckon it's a more than viable option.

Ok well 25 points is a bit expensive though is some protection against failed psychic tests.

The issue I see with this list here is that you are really, really hoping you don't come up against an army which can outshoot you - true only alpha wolves or guard can do that, but still. The other worry would be bi/tri land raiders- you would be putting a lot of faith in pinning.

I'd say his biggest worry is anything that can get walkers into assault with him. Just taking a DH on each unit would solve that problem.

Bi/Tri Landraiders aren't an issue he has the equivalent of 80 Lascannon shots to take down Landraiders. He should be able to nail 3 in a single turn of shooting.

I really can't see many armies being able to outshoot him. Out range him yes, out manouvre him certainly. Out shoot him? Can't see it.

mercer wrote:Ok well 25 points is a bit expensive though is some protection against failed psychic tests.

It doesn't protect against failed psychic tests. It protects only against close combat wounds. Perils of the Warp is not a close combat attack, and thus the Stave cannot be used.

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