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Hey guys, super noob Tyranid player here. I was looking up some Adepticon lists to try to make a decent 1850p list, and I noticed a common theme of large, 20+ model units of gargoyles. Presumably for flying cover and/or cheap assaulting and/or chasing skimmers.

How important would you say they are?

Also general nid tips are welcome as I have basically zero knowledge.

Are warriors ever effective? Lone tyrannofexes? What units do Tyranid Primes roll with?

How do you beat Dark Eldar?

Wow, it just feels wrong giving advice to someone with as many post as you have, but I can try to answer a couple of those.

Gargoyles are mostly effective only as fast moving cover. Sure they have blinding venom (auto wound on 6's to hit) but they rarely do any real damage. to the 20+ sized units that your seeing is because people love the large screen they offer, and how fast they can get there. I personally don't use them.

Idk how gargs would chase skimmers, but i use a Flyrant for that. you'll see a lot of flyrants with dual twin-linked devourers, but i use 2 sets of scything talons. really helps on landing those 6's, and 6=2d6 is some easy penetration.

Warriors, you need to find a place for if you want to take them. Like every other 40K army, 'nid need synergy, and 30+ point models on a swarm army are tough to swallow. Although, if am playing a Tyranid prime list, they get some careful consideration.

My last hint... Trygons! 'nuff said

Gargoyles are excellent units all around, which is why you see them. They give cover saves to MCs and even with AG & TS are extremely cheap. Not sure now they wont kill anything in combat... squad of 20 get 1.65 MEQ kills shooting, and 5 on the assault (not including blinding venom). Theyre also fast, something good lists need to be.

Warriors are not effective (The Warrior Prime, however, is). T4 warriors get squashed extremely fast by missiles when they cost as much as terminators...dont bother. The only warrior equivalents that are good are raveners, as they are incredibly fast, assaulting on turn 2 most of the time. Even then they have to be able to fit into the list or theyll be singled out.

T-Fexs are terrible. 265 for 2 BS 2 S10 shots a turn is not worth it. 22% chance to destroy a rhino each turn, 11% with cover. Meh. Its slow, sucks in close combat, an overall does nothing. Ive tried so many times to fit it in to get some long range shooting, it just doesnt do anything.

Warrior primes can run with Carnifexes (gives them a cover save), venomthropes, hive tyrant deathstars and zoanthropes (if you use them). Gives all of them extra wounds (at T5, so no ID) and an edge in close combat.

Trygons imo are a little meh. Yea against weak players theyll go up and slaughter everything with their 6 wounds. But theyre so easy to kill for competitive players being only T6 3+ (If you do run them youll need atleast two). I prefer the mighty Carnifex. Much more versatile and survivable.

Nightlords is right on the money, But them I'm a night lord at hearts so.....

The only thing I'd like to add, is ymgarl genestealers are worth the points, also trygons are good at lower point games. I ran 2 in a 1000 point turney and they did steller. Higher points see them thunderhammered to death. I rely on MCs and gargoyles to bust tanks. I just ignore Landraiders and such.

ph34r, for general nid build advice and information, I strongly recommend looking through threads and posts in Battle Reports and in Tactics by:

Shep
jy2
Hyv3mynd
and
Hulksmash

ph34r wrote:Hey guys, super noob Tyranid player here. I was looking up some Adepticon lists to try to make a decent 1850p list, and I noticed a common theme of large, 20+ model units of gargoyles. Presumably for flying cover and/or cheap assaulting and/or chasing skimmers.

How important would you say they are?

Really important. They can provide cover to Tervigons and other large creatures. They are mobile. They can tar pit units.

ph34r wrote:
Are warriors ever effective?

Most people would say they are not a good choice because too much stuff that insta-kills them. They are obviously best used in close combat and can be effective in this role, but there are better choices in the codex.

ph34r wrote:
Lone tyrannofexes?

For long range anti-tank a single one is not reliable. Thus you need other means of dealing with Storm Ravens with Dreadnaughts.

ph34r wrote:
What units do Tyranid Primes roll with?

Lash whip and Bone Sword, and Scything Talons.

ph34r wrote:
How do you beat Dark Eldar?

I must say that I disagree with Nids not being competitive. At Adepticon three Nid lists had excellent records. The best had a unit of 20 Gargoyles with AG, no Trygons and Stealers as troops. His HQ was a Tervigon ( none in troop slots) and his AT was six Hive Guard and three 'Thropes which will give DE headaches.

I don't play my Nids too often now, I confess. But I have no problem with the new codex although they did nerf a few models.

We have some very interesting HQs now too. At low points you can go Tervigon or Prime, at higher points you can do a Tyrant deathstar, Flyrant, Swarmlord, etc.

I'm not too fond of any of the heavy slots. you can make cute lists with Mawlocks, Carnis or Trygons but meh. Not really needed.

Troop slots are loaded now too. Toxix horms, stealers w/ or wo/ broodlord ( I run them with toxin only but they can be run naked), tervigons with buffs for termagants. Skip on the Warriors.

Everyone has their own idea on the Fast attack slot. Personally I favor Gargs. With adrenal they will glance all but heavy vehicles and they mess up Meqs better than toxic hormagants point for point. They always impress me when I field them.

The Elite is packed with too many good options to use them all ( zoanthropes, hg, venom thropes, ymgarl).

Check the forums and you will see a plethora of lists. I'll just post the best of Adepticon. He had a few draws but no losses I think.

Jay's 1850 Adepticon List:
Tervigon + ag, ts, cat, cc
Tervigon + ag, ts, cat
Hive Guard x3
Hive Guard x3
Zoanthropes x3
Genestealers x20
Genestealers x20
Genestealers x15
Gargoyles x26 + ag

Pretty good results from a group of 250+ players. Jay is a superb general though. Notice the crushing claws on the HQ Terv? In one game he took out a whole white scars bike squad! Go figure.

Jay is excellent. We met in the 4th round on Friday, and it was the third time he's taken me out in a close game at a GT. I killed a tervigon, the gargoyles, two units of stealers and most of another, but it was not enough.

Yikes. The responses have been pretty discouraging. Is is worth it to even consider making a 'nid army in this edition? If I start it, it is going to be a huge counts-as project, and I don't want to put in massive effort if I am going to lose every game

How is it discouraging? Jay Woodcock just made the top four on pure win/loss out of a 245 man eight round tournament.

Go read Shep's threads, jy2's threads, and hyv3mynd's threads. Seriously. Those guys are are kicking butt and writing outstanding battle report and tactical posts which will tell you what you need to know.

Yes Nids work fine. They have many builds, just don't get caught into the same pitfalls as people did when they first came out. as for de Even the humble fleshborer can down a raider and FnP can offset poison shots. a basic gaunt squad can almost go toe to toe with a warrior squad of = points. Nids can match thier speed in CC as well. It's a fun army and more like playing on normal more rather than SW easy mode.

If you are a good player you won't lose every game.

They are plenty competitive, they're just really hard to play. There's so many layers in the codex. It's not like Space Marines where differen't units are there to kill different things.

Tyranids rely on synergy so much more than most other armies. They're tactically challenging and very rewarding to play.

On to more specific questions: I've taken Tyrannofexes before, but they've never been a must include. They're a decent unit and have a place in a competitive list.

I'm not a huge gargoyle fan, they tend to outrun most synpase unless you take The Parasite, a winged Hive Tyrant, or Shrikes, all which are overcosted IMO. It's a shame since on paper they're quite good.

Warriors are unfortunately just not very good. The heaps and heaps of missile launcher and power fist equivalents you'll see make them easy to kill. I've taken Lash Whip & Bone Sword warriors before, because they'll kill just about anything. If you can find a way to get them somewhere safe (Outflank via Hive Commander or Mycetic Spore) they're decent.

If I take Tyranid Primes, I usually stick them with my Hive Guard. They are there to give me some extra synapse and be the bullet sponge.

I never leave home without Tervigons (and Termagants), Genestealers with Toxin Sacs, and 9 Hive Guard.

Mannahnin wrote:How is it discouraging? Jay Woodcock just made the top four on pure win/loss out of a 245 man eight round tournament.

Go read Shep's threads, jy2's threads, and hyv3mynd's threads. Seriously. Those guys are are kicking butt and writing outstanding battle report and tactical posts which will tell you what you need to know.

I think it's mostly the "can't kill transports, GG vs DE" angle. I'll definitely read those other threads though.

Massed stealers kill the HECK out of transports. Hive Guard and Zoans are pretty darn good at it too. You will want a bunch of them.

DE are a little trickier, but I'd recommend asking those guys about it.

Tool your list specifically to deal with transports, all other threats secondarily and you've got a good start. Try playing with the zoans/hive guard ratio if you're having trouble with armor of one sort or another.

Multi-Trygon builds also used to be viable, but GK really screwed that up. If you don't mind there being a serious rock to your scissors, it's not a bad place to start.

Have you considered playing test games via Vassal?

Nids are a tough army to play, but with the right strategy you can pull out some amazing wins. I found the articles here on dakka dakka to be quite helpful in figuring out what to fit my guys with.

Gargoyels are pretty darn good for what they are. They're highly mobile and act as a screen for some of your more important units. Don't be discouraged if you have to scoop them up in handfuls. That's just one of the joys of playing nids. You keep scooping models but while the opponent is firing at them your real threats are moving into range.

Genestealers are amazing!!! They can rip open enemy tanks with rending claws and charge into enemy infantry and easily waste them. Outflanking these guys is great vs armies that like to sit back and lay down fire. I personally don't like Broodlords. My buddy swears by them. Also a little perk via FAQs even though Genestealers aren't subject to instinctive behavior if they are in synapse range the still gain fearless!!!

Trygons/Trygon Primes are nice. But they need finese to play right. Popping them out right behind an enemy vehicle the firing can open it up easy enough but then you'll just get splattered. You can have them enter behind cover then next turn step out, fire then assault. Or have them work together with your Genestealers to crack transports and eat the occupants.

Warriors are a waste unless you take a prime. Even then they die way too fast.

Tervigons are amazing as well. Toxin sacks, adrenal glands and catalyst is usually all you need. A great trick is taking them as troops and sitting them on a point then keep making babies to litter the field.

Hive Guard/ Zoanthropes these are great AT. Guards can fire through cover. Thropes can spod in and have great psychic powers.

Before anyone else tells you otherwise NEVER take Regen. It's very expensive and rarely ever works like you hope.

Yikes. The responses have been pretty discouraging. Is is worth it to even consider making a 'nid army in this edition? If I start it, it is going to be a huge counts-as project, and I don't want to put in massive effort if I am going to lose every game

I had to respond to this first! Nidz took 4th place in a recent Adepticon Here is a link...

Nidz are good... don't let anyone tell you otherwise. Just some people don't know how to play the game and blame the army because it is so much vastly different to play than Space marines are. (I have a hard time playing space marines because I have played nidz for so long)

Before anyone else tells you otherwise NEVER take Regen. It's very expensive and rarely ever works like you hope

I guess you have never played a deathstar... or just a tryanid prime in general. Wound allocation tricks and the low cost (tyranid prime) is actually quite nice.

Warriors are a waste unless you take a prime. Even then they die way too fast.

Agree that warriors are a waist. Disagree that you would ever look past a Tyranid prime because you aren't taking warriors... The Tyranid prime is so much more useful than just buffing the second worst troops choice in the tyranid army.

Genestealers are amazing!!! They can rip open enemy tanks with rending claws and charge into enemy infantry and easily waste them. Outflanking these guys is great vs armies that like to sit back and lay down fire. I personally don't like Broodlords. My buddy swears by them. Also a little perk via FAQs even though Genestealers aren't subject to instinctive behavior if they are in synapse range the still gain fearless!!!

Broodlord or 4 toxic genestealers for the same cost? I choose toxic stealers... especially when factoring in that the broodlord counts as T4 because of the genestealers, S5 is worse that S4 with poison on everything except T3 or less, and its psychic powers are easily rendered useless by smart opponents. (I can make a much longer rant, but I choose not to)

I wouldn't rely on genestealers as a primary can opener. I actually would avoid doing that with many opponents. The wreck or blow up a transport and then get rapid fired in the face. And die...

Trygons/Trygon Primes are nice. But they need finese to play right. Popping them out right behind an enemy vehicle the firing can open it up easy enough but then you'll just get splattered. You can have them enter behind cover then next turn step out, fire then assault. Or have them work together with your Genestealers to crack transports and eat the occupants.

Trygons are great, but they need to be run in pairs/ triplets.

One thing I would like to add to this is to avoid deepstriking them unless their is some obvious tactical advantage to doing so (and please for the love of god don't try and use the trygon hole...)

Hive Guard/ Zoanthropes these are great AT. Guards can fire through cover. Thropes can spod in and have great psychic powers.

Depending on the rest of your list, it might also be a good idea to walk them as well (another good use for a tyranid prime with regen... ID protection for zoeys on foot)

Just be warry of psychic defense. Landraiders tend to have psychic defense which tends to make zoanthropes lance pretty worthless. Which is why I am more a fan of walking them... as you can also use their warp blast...

I know people just looked at this comment and said to themselves What? Zoanthropes have a power that isn't the S10 AP1 lance??? yes... yes they do.



----------------

Tyranid Prime: stick with- Hive guard (for a tough synapse node), Zoanthropes (missile sponge), Venomthrope (missile sponge), gants (go to ground in an objective in cover with LW/BS... very strong scoring unit), Canifex (fex star.... don't take the canifex), Tyrant guard (deathstar tyrant... deadly but slow for my taste. Not many models in the game can deal with it in close proximity)

Don't forget the humble venomthrope. This model is really just great. 5+ cover for your MC's is cool... but there 2 other things that it provides that really annoy opponents.

1) dangerous terrain. marines don't like taking it. Orks definitely don't like taking it. In addition, if the opponent doesn't have assault grenades... they strike second.

2) Defensive grenades. This is so useful in so many ways. Now the venomthrope is shielding your guys from being shot AND reducing significantly the number of attacks your opponent is dishing out via killing them before they strike, denying a charge bonus, and making them attack second.

This is my 2 cents.

I'll admit I have yet to use a Prime yet. I see how they're nice cuz of the amount of points you save and the fact that they're smaller so you they're easier to hide. I hear people say to put them with a dakka fex but as I understand it the rules say an independent character can't join a MC unit of only one model, maybe I'm missing something?

I will amend my comment about regen a bit though. Its not worth taking on Trygons due to the price but on stuff like a Nid Prime where its cheap, then by all means.

Venomthropes I'm not a fan of. He provides cover, but he occupies a very very crucial Elite slot.

Oh and to the OP I am actually at the moment trying to move my whole Nid army if you're interested in picking up an army cheaper than retail. Heres the link http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/355767.page

Most of the paint jobs are pretty poor, and they were going to be my summer project to strip/rebuild/repaint but I just don't have the time at the moment.

ph34r wrote:How do you beat Dark Eldar?

Being a DE player myself, this might help:

Hit the Kabalite Warriors as fast as you can with lots of Gaunts/ some very fast Stealers. On their own, they'le die quite quickly in CC
DON'T let the wyches get into CC. use some guns to take them out whilst they've got 6+ armour saves
Any Dark Lances at the back, DS some Gargoyles and kill the tanks with sheer numbers on the back armour, or charge some squads to stop them firing
Raiders go down potentialy on anything above S4, so make sure the DEare left stranded at the back, were you can charge and snipe with Vennom Cannons at will.

Hope this is useful!

l0k1 wrote:I'll admit I have yet to use a Prime yet. I see how they're nice cuz of the amount of points you save and the fact that they're smaller so you they're easier to hide. I hear people say to put them with a dakka fex but as I understand it the rules say an independent character can't join a MC unit of only one model, maybe I'm missing something?

I will amend my comment about regen a bit though. Its not worth taking on Trygons due to the price but on stuff like a Nid Prime where its cheap, then by all means.

Venomthropes I'm not a fan of. He provides cover, but he occupies a very very crucial Elite slot.

Oh and to the OP I am actually at the moment trying to move my whole Nid army if you're interested in picking up an army cheaper than retail. Heres the link http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/355767.page

Most of the paint jobs are pretty poor, and they were going to be my summer project to strip/rebuild/repaint but I just don't have the time at the moment.

1) Rulebook says you can not join IC's to units that always consist of 1 model (actually doesn't say MC anywhere ) A carnifex can be taken in broods, and therefore an IC can join it.

2) Hive Tyrant (Shell, regen, OA) x3 Guard (LW) Tyranid Prime (LW/BS, regen) In this case, regeneration is quite nice as well, because wound allocation makes an already durable unit much more annoying.

3) It is true that a venomthrope takes up an elite slot, one that can be used for more anti-tank. But, it also allows your MC's who can't easily get cover, to survive the onslaught of anti-tank that your opponent throws at you. It's actually best in an onion formation, and should really only be used for such. MC's are good anti-tank to


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Urien_Rakarth wrote:

ph34r wrote:How do you beat Dark Eldar?

Being a DE player myself, this might help:

Hit the Kabalite Warriors as fast as you can with lots of Gaunts/ some very fast Stealers. On their own, they'le die quite quickly in CC
DON'T let the wyches get into CC. use some guns to take them out whilst they've got 6+ armour saves
Any Dark Lances at the back, DS some Gargoyles and kill the tanks with sheer numbers on the back armour, or charge some squads to stop them firing
Raiders go down potentialy on anything above S4, so make sure the DEare left stranded at the back, were you can charge and snipe with Vennom Cannons at will.

Hope this is useful!

Add to this: If you are going for DE specifically... HVC are actually useful.

The gargoyles... I am not sure about this. Outflanking genestealers would get the job done equally well, and if your opponent is hiding in the back, then scattering off the board is very likely and the anti-infantry fire on the turn will hurt.

gargoyles only get fleshboarers, so their shooting wont do anything to ravengers, unless they somehow get into the rear arch and not scatter of the table. You have to rely on close combat unless it isn't a ravenger... and if it isn't, I would prefer a spore full of devilgants. Far less likely to mishap and quite a few more attacks :-)