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Or maybe Paladins and Terminators...

Which would you pick of these two options (if you don't play GK, which would you least like to meet at 2000 pts)?

Option 1

Draigo
Librarian w/ sanctuary, shrouding, warp quake
2 x 5 Paladins w/ 2 master-crafted psycannon, 1 master-crafted hammer, 4 halberds, psybolt ammo
2 x Venerable Dreadnoughts w/assault cannon, psybolt ammo; doomfist/heavy flamer, psyflame ammo
2 x Stormravens w/ TL multimelta; TL assault cannon, psybolt ammo

Option 2

Librarian w/ warding stave, hand of titan, quicksilver, sanctuary, shrouding, warp quake
5 Paladins w/ 2 master-crafted psycannon, 1 master-crafted hammer, 4 halberds, psybolt ammo
2 x 6 Terminators w/ psycannon, 1 master-crafted hammer, 4 halberds, psybolt ammo
Venerable Dreadnought w/assault cannon, psybolt ammo; doomfist/heavy flamer, psyflame ammo
3 x Stormravens w/ TL multimelta; TL assault cannon, psybolt ammo

Obviously both options are entirely geared for 24" and less combat. That's their point, if I wanted to nance around at 36"+ I'd pick space fairies (dark or light) or Imperial weaklings...

The second option has more bodies (though only 7 more wounds) and shoots an extra 7 S 5 storm bolters and another multi-melta. It lacks Draigo's Grand Strategy (which could make 1 or two Dreadnoughts scoring) and his ability to take missile/lascannon shots for his squad. It has roughly equal close combat power. It does have the benefit of the extra Stormraven too.

Now it may be that a normal Dreadnought might be more cost-effective (though I'm not convinced for non-psyflemen) but in the first option, I'd prefer to have Venerables going in with a pure Paladin force. In the second, I could maybe use the points for a little redistribution/tweaking.

I'm open to suggestions (and ribald hoots of laughter are welcome too, but bear in mind if I wanted a rhino/razorback list, I'd have made one, ditto if I wanted a foot list) but what I'd really like are just opinions as to which option is better in your view. I'm aware neither list is especially competitive, I'd welcome suggestions as to how you'd go about taking either down (not with a tailored list, but with the sort of army you usually play please. Thanks muchly in advance.

As someone who currently is messing with DE, I would least like to see the third SR. It's got nothing else to do with the rest of your list.

Either way, my objective would be to first take out your SR's & Dreads (probably 2 rounds of fire), then pick off your slow, plodding Terminators with Darklight weapons & lucky shots.

Eric

Librarians cannot take Warp Quake. That's a power that comes free on Strike Squads and Interceptor Squads. Why would you take Halberds if you have Quicksilver on the Librarian? Also, why would you take a Venerable Dreadnought? For 60 fewer points you can get a regular Dreadnought as a Heavy Support option. That said, I prefer the second option, but personally I think you would do better to drop some extra gear and replace the Venerable Dread with 2x normal Dreads.

Personally I would adjust to this:

Librarian (Might, Sanctuary, Shrouding, Quicksilver) - 170
5 Paladins - 405
-Apothecary
-Psycannon, MC Sword
-Psycannon, Sword
-MC Daemon Hammer
-MC Sword
6 Terminators (Psycannon, 3x Halberds, MC Daemon Hammer) - 265
5 Terminators (Psycannon, 3x Halberds, MC Daemon Hammer) - 225
Storm Raven (TL Assault Cannon, TL Multi-Melta, Psybolt Ammo) - 225
Storm Raven (TL Assault Cannon, TL Multi-Melta, Psybolt Ammo) - 225
Storm Raven (TL Assault Cannon, TL Multi-Melta, Psybolt Ammo) - 225
Dreadnought (Assault Cannon, Psybolt Ammo) - 130
Dreadnought (Assault Cannon, Psybolt Ammo) - 130
Total 2,000

Keeps the gear separate on the Paladins for wound allocation shenanigans and gives them an Apothecary for FNP at the expense of a single Terminator. You also get two Dreadnoughts instead of just one, which gives you more firepower and durability via target saturation. I will say though that without a Grand Master to make the Paladins and the Dreadnoughts into scoring units, this list will likely not do so well in objective based missions.

Hope that helps!

Thanks, chaps.

Eric: yeah, I like the 3 x Stormravens myself


Aldarrion: I meant Warp Rift, not Warp Quake. I must have had Strike Squads on the brain for some reason.

Why would you take an apothecary? Is he in fact worth his points once in melee? (where I feel PNP is more likely to be useful).

I'd have thought master-crafting the psycannon for 5 pts each to be well worth it. It's equivalent to about 1 extra hit each fire for the 2 psycannon squad for 10 pts. Ditto the Daemon hammers, given that if you're relying on them, you want to maximise the chances of them being effective (though I'm less set on that, I could easily drop 'em).

Quicksilver I had mainly becaus eI was trying to sqeeze falchions onto the paladin squad (and the Librarian would then quicksilver them to I 10). in the end I didn't manage it. you're right, most of the time the power's now redundant.

You are quite right, 2 Dreadnoughts is superior for the second list, I'll have a ponder on how to adjust that (as I'm not yet quite convinced by the apothecary for a 5 man squad).

Tremendously useful, thanks a lot.

The Apothecary is usually worth it. A 2+ with FNP is brutally effective at keeping Paladins alive. At range it's certainly a little less useful since you just have your 5++ against anything AP2 or better, but in combat it basically means you can ignore anything that's not a Power Weapon or Instant Death. Since Paladins are much more effective in combat than at range, you will likely only spend one turn shooting before you charge, unless you get shot down of course, so Master Crafting your melee weapons takes priority.

If you really don't want to include the Apothecary you can essentially ditch him for a 6th Terminator in the 5 man unit, or maybe an Ordo Xenos Inquisitor with Rad Grenades or an Ordo Malleus Inquisitor with Terminator Armor and a Psycannon.

Sound thinking, thanks again. I think I've probaly been taking too narrow a view of the apothecary, perhaps.

After a day's reflection (and some pondering over whether I want to build and paint an apothecary), I've decided upon:

Librarian w/ might of titan, quicksilver, sanctuary, shrouding (170)
5 Paladins w/ 1 apothecary, 1 master-crafted psycannon, 1 master-crafted hammer, 1 pair falchions, 3 swords, psybolt ammo (405)
2 x 5 Terminators w/ psycannon, 1 hammer, 4 halberds, psybolt ammo (245 ea.)
2 x Dreadnoughts w/assault cannon, psybolt ammo; doomfist/storm bolter, psybolt ammo (130 ea.)
3 x Stormravens w/ TL multimelta; TL assault cannon, psybolt ammo (225 ea.)

2000 points exactly

giving 8 psycannon (or equivalent assault cannon+psybolt ammo, 3 of which are twin-linked), 3 TL multi-meltas plus 13 S 5 storm bolters and 1 S 4 storm bolter.

So, you've got two troop units? You're going to be "playing for the draw" in 2/3 of your games.

IMO, you should worry less about taking all the cool stuff and more about balancing the army. Again, though, that's just my opinion.

I'll tell you this much, though... Most 2000 point DE armies have at least 13 Dark Lances on 7 vehicles. If you don't win the roll, the chances of your Storm Ravens making it past Turn 1 is pretty low (as long as Dashofpepper isn't rolling the hits).
The Dreads shouldn't expect to make it past turn 2, unless you hide them & get some lucky cover saves.

The last 15 models would be picked off at your opponent's liesure.

This is a GK list I would not fear.

Eric
(No insult or trolling intended. Just frank analysis)

Thanks, and no offence taken.

I know it's not desperately competitive, to be honest that's one of the main attractions for me. I may be odd but I'd rather lose with an army I rather like for nebulous reasons than win with a somewhat mundane 'best list' (which always involves lots of rather dull troop transports and/or or spending half of the rest of my life painting an uncountable mass of low cost troops). I have a boring army for when I want to win without trying too hard... (or at least when I feel that I want to maximise my chances of winning, which are probably reasonably low anyway given my advanced age and the fact that in evening games, I'm knackered and wanting my bed before the game starts due to having to work for a living).

I'm aware that the dingier type of Space Fairies might prove quite tiresome - but if I'm not on the board on turn 1 then 13 or so lances won't be hitting much... and let's see.... 13 lances hitting about 8, glancing/penetrating 4 is it? That's 4 3+ saves to make with Shrouding. So say 1 raven going down after fortitude, given a shade of luck (or bad luck for the fairies)? I think 7 paper thin vehicles are maybe going to worry a bit about 2 TL psycannon equivalents, 2 TL multi-meltas and 4 or so remaining psycannon (what's that, 6 hits? Say 5 penetrations, your ravagers out of action... even allowing for your short-circuiting force fields)

Seriously though, I do take your point, and if the opponent can keep distance, and they could well do so, then there's a big problem. Also depends a bit on how much terrain there is. And I suspect reasonably good space fairy player could make mince of this force as you say (with maybe a wee bit more difficulty than they might expect).

Paladins for purity was my vote. I have two 5 man Paladin squads (with full shenanigans for wounds) with Apothecaries and they are amazing. 2 Stormravens, 2 Paladin Squads, Draigo, Librarian, and 2 Dreads at 2000 points. Competitive? Probably not. Fun? Oh hell yes.

@Artemo
I can respect your reason for wanting this army. "For the fun of it" is the BEST reason to build a particular army, IMO. : )

I know what you mean about getting old. Game day is Saturday. Usually about 12 hours straight... I'm not a kid anymore. I start getting TIRED! LOL

Enjoy!

Eric

I have a dark secret... years ago, I used to mismanage a dingy space fairy army, and I actually think they have bags of style. In fact Dashofpepper's recent thread almost made me choose them over GK for my new force. In the end, I just couldn't face painting the ravagers and raiders (or indeed the dozens models worth of of pointy-eared flesh).



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Blade walker: interesting. How do you fit two apothecaries in and still keep everything tooled up? The only way I could see was a 4 man squad for Draigo and the Librarian to join. which would necessarily lack psycannon, and a 6 man, 2 psycannon squad. I'd probably be happiest with a 2500 point list that would allow all paladins, draigo and a Librarian plus 3 stormraven but we don't play so many games oiver 2000 points.

I squeeze it in like this:

Draigo (275)

Librarian with Warding Staff, Shrouding, and Quicksilver (195)

5 Paladins (420)
-Apothecary with Staff
-Psycannon/Sword
-Psycannon/Falchions
-Stormbolter/Sword
-Stormbolter/Falchions

5 Paladins (380)
-Apothecary with Staff
-Incinerator/Halberd
-Incinerator/Hammer
-Stormbolter/Halberd
-Stormbolter/Hammer

2 Stormravens with TL Multi-Melta, TL Assault Cannon, and Hurricanes (470) (no extra armor because there is Fortitude and no psybolts so hurricanes remain defensive)

2 Dreadnoughts with Autocannon, Fist/Stormbolter, Psybolts (260)

I run the same list at 1750 without the Dreads. It's fun to deploy by putting down two Stormravens and saying "done!". It's a versatile codex from fun list I have to some really competitive builds as well, have fun man!

Apothecaries are bad its like 80 bolters to kill a paladin with wound allocation.

Apothecaries struuck me as a rather bad idea at first (and second) look. However given the need in many cases to get stuck in to close combat, where you could be taking a huge number of hits, I think they probably pay for themselves. Just against shooting, I tend to agree. I might do some calculations of combats vs Imperial weaklings and dingy space fairies to check.

The other thing to consider with the points for the Apothecary is that your Librarian or Draigo will be getting FNP from him too... one unit has 2, 2++ saves in CC and the other has one 2++ and one 3++ with Eternal Warrior. So with FNP you basically ignore regular attacks and hope to annihilate Fists before they swing (or absorb them with Staves). I played my Bloodcrushers for a long time as a slow moving, multi-wound face punching unit... Paladins are four times as awesome with all of their wargear and deployment options for about double the price. I'm not preaching my fun list as something unstoppable, but I'm saying Paladins fully kitted perform better than you think they would... especially with a Stormraven delivery system.

*Shrouding on Stormravens coming on flat out from reserve get 3+ cover, keep Draigos within 6" of the other one to give it to both*

Yes, the shrouding stormravens tactic is one I wholeheartedly endorse. I'm increasingly liking your loadout (though I'd maximise psycannon myself) and will experiment with that against orks tomorrow. Draigo and/or the Librarian getting FNP helps considerably with the apothecary's cost becoming points-effective. I hadn't actually considered the warding staves on non-Librarians, but they seem to make a deal of sense, given one will be getting stuck in.

I'm rather fancying this force in Cities of Death also -- though there I would go with some incinerators.

Thanks again, by the way, you made me look again from a slightly different angle.

Is that legal to cast Shrouding like that? It seems to be awesome to be allowed...

It's certainly quite useful (and even more hilarious when fielding 3 stormraven). I've only played it twice, and only once with someone I know only slightly, and he didn't quibble (I mean he wasn't best pleased, obviously, but he didn't raise a rules objection at all). I'm not sure why it wouldn't be legal

Is Shrouding like a shooting attack? Can you cast psyker powers from inside a Stormraven? Where do you measure the 6" range from?

Shrouding is cast in the opposing shooting phase. it doesn't need los and so can be cast from inside a vehicle. I measured from the 'raven's base.