Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I had a match against some friends and 2 arguments arose.

1. Can deffkopters move 24" on there scout move?
2. If they assault a vehicle do the attacks auto-hit? (since it hasn't moved prior)

We searches the rulebook and didn't find anything. So what are the generally accepted rules regarding this?

Hazard30 wrote:I had a match against some friends and 2 arguments arose.

1. Can deffkopters move 24" on there scout move?
2. If they assault a vehicle do the attacks auto-hit? (since it hasn't moved prior)

We searches the rulebook and didn't find anything. So what are the generally accepted rules regarding this?

1. Yes.
2. Yes.

There isn't room in the rulebook to cover specific scenarios, but following the rules you get this:

1. You can turboboost in your scout move, which is a 24 inch move
2. You can move, shoot, assault as normal on the first turn. If the enemy tank hasn't moved, attacks auto hit. It hasn't moved, so they autohit.

Actually....thats not quite how the rules read.

1) Yes the deffkopters can move 24" on their scout move.

2) Vehicles are only auto hit if they are immobilized or did not move on their previous turn.


If we follow the RAW, there is no way to hit a vehicle that hasnt had a movement phase. Some tourneys do rule that its autohit, some rule that its only hit on a 4+. No one (that I am aware of) uses the RAW and says they cant be hit~. There really isnt a rule that covers first turn assaults on vehicles.



Sliggoth

Not having a previous turn makes it impossible to have moved on the previous turn.

1. yes

2. most likely yes, although the rules don't cover this technicality.

I look at it like the Vehicle didn't move in the, non-existant, prior movement phase.


Strictly RAW, the game breaks and you both lose.

GW left a hole in their rules? Say it ain't so.

in their defense, 1st turn assaults were nigh impossable at the time 5th was written.


there wasn't really any codex that had the ability to scout a unit that had a 12" movement(or an open topped transport)


Deffcoptas excluded, but those seem to be used more for the TL-rokkits rather then assaulting a tank(Buzzsaw is expensive)

The turn 1 buzzsaw assault, or just the threat of it, is the main thing I see Deffcoptas taken for. And they're in the starter box.

perhaps,

around here Deffcoptas usually die before they make it into the assault.

Well, that's their job. If you're going first, mess up your opponent's deployment/get a turn 1 charge. If you're going second, draw fire and sell your life dearly.

Sliggoth wrote:
If we follow the RAW, there is no way to hit a vehicle that hasnt had a movement phase. Some tourneys do rule that its autohit, some rule that its only hit on a 4+. No one (that I am aware of) uses the RAW and says they cant be hit~. There really isnt a rule that covers first turn assaults on vehicles.



Sliggoth

I have to disagree with this statement because it is false. The 'RAW' indicate that the rules as written give a clear indication of how to play. In this case, the rules give 3 conditions of what roll is needed to hit a vehicle in close combat and none of them apply in this scenario. Therefore, the rules as written do not provide any clear way to play, but they do not indicate that there is 'no way to hit a vehicle that hasn't had a movement phase.'

This is a very important distinction that is often lost in internet rules discussions. The 'RAW' means the rules clearly tell you how to play a certain way, and in this case there is no clear way to play. The Deff Kopta is allowed to assault the vehicle per the rules, but then the rules fail to give us a clear answer of what roll is needed to hit the vehicle...so we ultimately don't know what roll is needed to hit...in other words, there is no 'RAW' in this situation.

FWIW, Dark Eldar have been able to do this for a while, without Scout moves or units whose sole purpose is distraction. Even without the free turn trick, 22.9"- 27.9" assaults are possible, and the old codex had 28.9"-33.9".

I'm still kind of new to out-of-house gaming, but would anyone really try to argue that the vehicle cannot be hit..?

somerandomdude wrote:FWIW, Dark Eldar have been able to do this for a while, without Scout moves or units whose sole purpose is distraction. Even without the free turn trick, 22.9"- 27.9" assaults are possible, and the old codex had 28.9"-33.9".

And actually the Ork codex was a 4th edition codex, so for all of 5th edition first turn assaults from Deff Koptas have been allowed...the only question was ever whether or not scout moves allowed turbo-boosting (that they later clarified via FAQ).

Rosenthal_C wrote:I'm still kind of new to out-of-house gaming, but would anyone really try to argue that the vehicle cannot be hit..?

It's highly unlikely because as I pointed out the rules don't say that...they're just completely unclear. Therefore players have to decide how to play the matter and the highest probable 'common sense' answer is to treat the vehicle as being auto-hit.

When taking into account the BRB faq it is still very likely to auto-hit non-scout vehicles.

Q: During the first turn of the game does a scout move
count as the preceding Movement phase when working
out any saves from shooting, for example the 3+ cover
save from turbo-boosting, and the to hit rolls in combat
against vehicles? (p76)
A: Yes.

Dont want to get into a semantics debate, but I do have to slightly disagree with Yakface here.

The rules really do NOT provide a way to roll to hit a vehicle that has not yet had a movement phase. Yes, the rules also do NOT indicate that such a vehicle cannot be hit, but if we follow the RAW there is no method to hit the vehicles. We are left with the problem of deciding how to handle the situation, which is not at all covered by the RAW.

Again, this does not in any way suggest that these vehicles are immune to being hit the first turn. But, we are left with the fact that any method we should choose is NOT RAW.



At our local FLGS we ran into this years ago shorlty after the SM codex came out. A league night game involved a BW/ Truk ork army vs a SM army that had 3 units of SM scouts. The SM player decided to take the scouts to contest objectives etc etc...but went for 95 point units to give the sgt a PF. He had an interesting thought on set up, and the first turn proceeded to destroy all 3 BW with the scout units. This led to an interesting (and vocal) debate that ended with a house rule of 4+ being the fair answer.

Your answer may be different in your location with your own house rules...just be aware that this is one of the cases where house rules are required.


Sliggoth

As you can not use the table to resolve the to-hit roll, fall back on WS to hit the vehicle. Any model with a weaponskill of 0 is automatically hit (BRB pg. 7). Ta-da!

Well it seems to me that Jidmah answered it with the faq. The scout phase is the previous movement phase for both players. Sucks for me as I play a gunline IG though. Also mostly against an ork player that has koptas and a buzz saw, but he doesn't turbo boost on the scout phase for some reason.

This applies even if you have no scouts on either side, as their is still a point in which scout moves CAN be made, even if none actually ARE made.

So, no matter what, you CAN resolve first turn attacks against vehicles.

Sliggoth wrote:Dont want to get into a semantics debate, but I do have to slightly disagree with Yakface here.

The rules really do NOT provide a way to roll to hit a vehicle that has not yet had a movement phase. Yes, the rules also do NOT indicate that such a vehicle cannot be hit, but if we follow the RAW there is no method to hit the vehicles. We are left with the problem of deciding how to handle the situation, which is not at all covered by the RAW.

So when you say you disagree, what you meant to say was that you fully agree?

Yakface wrote:It's highly unlikely because as I pointed out the rules don't say that...they're just completely unclear. Therefore players have to decide how to play the matter

Jidmah wrote:As you can not use the table to resolve the to-hit roll, fall back on WS to hit the vehicle. Any model with a weaponskill of 0 is automatically hit (BRB pg. 7). Ta-da!

Vehicles don't have WS0

they don't have a WS characteristic at all. it isn't 0, it isn't anything.

The problem with the scout move is that is exactly what it is: a scout move. Its not a previous turn. For that matter, if the vehicle being assaulted doesnt have the scout special rule, it (that vehicle) has not had a scout move.

The rule to hit uses the phrase "in its previous turn". This is quite different from the phrase "preceding movement phase" which is what the FAQ addresses.



Sliggoth

Sliggoth wrote:At our local FLGS we ran into this years ago shorlty after the SM codex came out. A league night game involved a BW/ Truk ork army vs a SM army that had 3 units of SM scouts. The SM player decided to take the scouts to contest objectives etc etc...but went for 95 point units to give the sgt a PF. He had an interesting thought on set up, and the first turn proceeded to destroy all 3 BW with the scout units.

Just to point out to any new players unclear; the SM player had to have Shrike in his army, and his Scouts completely hidden out of LOS, and be going first, in order to do this.

Mannahnin wrote:

Sliggoth wrote:At our local FLGS we ran into this years ago shorlty after the SM codex came out. A league night game involved a BW/ Truk ork army vs a SM army that had 3 units of SM scouts. The SM player decided to take the scouts to contest objectives etc etc...but went for 95 point units to give the sgt a PF. He had an interesting thought on set up, and the first turn proceeded to destroy all 3 BW with the scout units.

Just to point out to any new players unclear; the SM player had to have Shrike in his army, and his Scouts completely hidden out of LOS, and be going first, in order to do this.

Or he could have set up more than 18 inches away, scout moved, normal moved, fleeted and charged...

Good point. 6" scout move + 6" normal move + fleet + charge could work. I should build a Shrike list at some point.

Our house rule for our local tournies was that the vehicle rolled in during deployment from the board edge, much like when they come in from reserve, and thus you needed a 4+ to hit.

And of course if a vehicle deepstrikes you need a 6 to hit.

Shenra wrote:Our house rule for our local tournies was that the vehicle rolled in during deployment from the board edge, much like when they come in from reserve, and thus you needed a 4+ to hit.

This makes the most logical sense and seems fair. Not sure how RAW or RAI it is, but I'm proposing this in any game I play if it comes up.

By that logic you should measure the distance from the table edge to determine how far they moved. So if they're at the 12" line; or really if any part of them is more than 6" from the edge, you only hit on 6s.

Doesn't work for me.

In "reality" before the battle a vehicle could have been stationary, or could have just hauled butt to be there. I could certainly see a house rule saying 4+ to simulate that it could have been either. Or d3 per vehicle (1-2: Was stationary, 3-4: Moved, but not over 6", 5-6: Moved over 6"). But then you should roll that before any scouts or infiltrate moves, because the scouting or infiltrating unit should know how fast that vehicle was moving, and be able to decide what to do based on that.

In practice I just always see vehicles which haven't moved yet treated as stationary.

Mannahnin wrote:By that logic you should measure the distance from the table edge to determine how far they moved. So if they're at the 12" line; or really if any part of them is more than 6" from the edge, you only hit on 6s.

Doesn't work for me.

In "reality" before the battle a vehicle could have been stationary, or could have just hauled butt to be there. I could certainly see a house rule saying 4+ to simulate that it could have been either. Or d3 per vehicle (1-2: Was stationary, 3-4: Moved, but not over 6", 5-6: Moved over 6"). But then you should roll that before any scouts or infiltrate moves, because the scouting or infiltrating unit should know how fast that vehicle was moving, and be able to decide what to do based on that.

In practice I just always see vehicles which haven't moved yet treated as stationary.

Indeed, if you use this interpretation, why (if you're the one going first) are you any different? That would mean you cannot move further during your turn 1, as you have already moved from the board edge. Heavy weapons cannot fire, etc etc.

I realize it was more of a house ruling/explanation to serve as a workaround, but I think the logic is still a bit flawed. I've always seen it played as the vehicle is stationary, and I think thats the most common (which may or may not be RAW depending on your interpretation) way it is played.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:

Sliggoth wrote:At our local FLGS we ran into this years ago shorlty after the SM codex came out. A league night game involved a BW/ Truk ork army vs a SM army that had 3 units of SM scouts. The SM player decided to take the scouts to contest objectives etc etc...but went for 95 point units to give the sgt a PF. He had an interesting thought on set up, and the first turn proceeded to destroy all 3 BW with the scout units.

Just to point out to any new players unclear; the SM player had to have Shrike in his army, and his Scouts completely hidden out of LOS, and be going first, in order to do this.

Or he could have set up more than 18 inches away, scout moved, normal moved, fleeted and charged...

You have to be more than 12"/18" away for infiltration, so no charge if infiltrating in plain sight, you'd be 0,001 inch out of range unless you missmeasured