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Jidmah wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:

Sliggoth wrote:At our local FLGS we ran into this years ago shorlty after the SM codex came out. A league night game involved a BW/ Truk ork army vs a SM army that had 3 units of SM scouts. The SM player decided to take the scouts to contest objectives etc etc...but went for 95 point units to give the sgt a PF. He had an interesting thought on set up, and the first turn proceeded to destroy all 3 BW with the scout units.

Just to point out to any new players unclear; the SM player had to have Shrike in his army, and his Scouts completely hidden out of LOS, and be going first, in order to do this.

Or he could have set up more than 18 inches away, scout moved, normal moved, fleeted and charged...

You have to be more than 12"/18" away for infiltration, so no charge if infiltrating in plain sight, you'd be 0,001 inch out of range unless you missmeasured

Nope.

Infiltrate a unit of scouts 18 inches away.
Scout move 6 inches.
First turn move 6 inches.
Fleet d6 inches. (this example was using shrike)
Assault 6 inches.

Or...the scouts can be on bikes and so have a turboboosted scount of 24" plus 12" first turn regular move.

The whole reason the scouts were taken was for a force that could turbo in with a 3+ cover save to contest objectives. Sorry that I just called them scouts, but at 95 points a minimum bike squad is the only way to get a PF so just went with the shorthand description. (He did originally plan on giving them all cluster mines and melta bombs as well but used the points elsewhere. Remember it so well because he had to borrow some of my eldar jetbikes to act as proxies for the reg bikes) The league games all used objectives and had victory points associated with even just contesting an objective. Also used a system to gradually grow the point values of the armies as the campaign progressed but that led to some badly unbalanced games in the long run.


How your group house rules this question will probably depend on how the question first comes up. The first opinion expressed by one of the opinion leaders will probably start people thinking one way or the other. In our case, it was the ork player saying something to the effect " of course my vehicles moved, no way are they going to be sitting out there in a field while and wait while those SM tanks drive up and park".


With no RAW or RAI on this its going to need to be house ruled in whatever manner seems to make the most sense to your group. Just dont automatically assume that others (especially TOs) will be running it the same way.



Sliggoth

Yet the FAQ clears this up: "Scout" counts as the preceding movement phase, even if you dont have any scouts.

Which is all well and good.....but doesnt help with first turn assaults because the to hit roll is based on :

Whether the vehicle is immobilised, was stationary in its previous TURN, moved at combat speed in its previous TURN or moved at cruising speed in its previous TURN.


GW has gone to the trouble of actually telling us what they mean by turn now, and a scout movement phase is not a turn.



Sliggoth

Did the vehicle move in any movement phase? No? Counts as stationary.

juraigamer wrote:Did the vehicle move in any movement phase? No? Counts as stationary.

Did the vehicle remain stationary in a movement phase? No? Doesn't count as stationary.

There is no correct answer to this - none of the options on the table apply. Personally, I play as 4+ to hit - doesn't screw people that want to do first turn charges, doesn't screw people on the receiving end of them.

Sorry I worded that wrong.

What I meant to say was "Has the vehicle moved previously in the game?"

By the rules, it hasn't moved, nor could it unless it could scout. House rules are all well and fine, but as it stands you can't move a vehicle before the game, unless it can scout.

juraigamer wrote:Sorry I worded that wrong.

What I meant to say was "Has the vehicle moved previously in the game?"

By the rules, it hasn't moved, nor could it unless it could scout. House rules are all well and fine, but as it stands you can't move a vehicle before the game, unless it can scout.

But neither can you have a vehicle remain stationary before a game. It's state in the previous turn is unknown because there was no previous turn. It did not move at cruising speed last turn, it did not move at combat speed last turn, it did not remain stationary last turn.

RAW, there is no way to hit the vehicle.

RAI doesn't help since the only clear intention that we can derive from the rules is that they had not considered the possibility of first turn charges against vehicles.

actually, its this


RAW, we are allowed to hit the vehicle, but we don't know what we need to hit it. we either Auto-hit, hit on 4+, or hit on 6+.


RAW, we don't know which one, but we are allowed to hit it.

True, we are allowed to hit it but are unable to do so as there is no option on the table which is applicable to the situation.

D3 it off.

1-2=auto hit, 3-5=4+, 6=6+

Sliggoth - "the to hit rolls in combat against vehicles?"

You can use the scout turn to work out what is required to hit vehicles.

The scout move may count as a previous movement phase, that doesn't mean that it's a previous turn.

It was FAQed to be a previous turn for skimmers having moved flat out during scouting.

Sliggoth wrote:
If we follow the RAW, there is no way to hit a vehicle that hasnt had a movement phase. Some tourneys do rule that its autohit, some rule that its only hit on a 4+. No one (that I am aware of) uses the RAW and says they cant be hit~. There really isnt a rule that covers first turn assaults on vehicles.



Sliggoth

@Jidmah Please reread the FAQ that you quoted on the first page. It tells us that the scout move counts as a movement phase. Which is why it answers the question of whether or not skimmers count as moving in their previous movement phase.


The assault problem involves the question of whether or not a vehicle remained stationary during its previous TURN. Which is actually one of those rare defined terms in 40k. It consists of a movement phase, a shooting phase and an assault phase. So while its nice to know that the scout move counts as a movement phase, it does NOT help us at all with determing what the vehicle was doing in a previous turn.

The rules are extremely clear here. The assault rules refer to the previous turn, which doesnt exist on the first turn. (Why its called first, heh)



We dont even have RAI in this case, since its possible that the GW designers picture the vehicles driving onto the battlefield just before the battle (knowing how some of them seem to think, they may even be going *vroom* *vroom* as they do it) or they may be thinking that the vehicles all drive up and very politely wait until everyone is at their starting points before beginning the battle.

Its not covered in the rules. Make up a house rule that makes sense to as many of your players as you can, or make up a house rule that is the least abuseable but just keep in mind its a house rule.


Sliggoth

Well, we have enough of a RAI to be confident that GW intends us to be able to hit them SOMEHOW. Clearly the RAI is not that they are unhittable.

It's a hole in the rules, and you just need to patch it as you and your opponent see appropriate.

Well, since this is posted in YMTC (which is about how you play in your games, not about RAW arguments) I say that anyone that assaults, and destroys, a vehicle first turn gets a 1d6 consolidate if they wreck the vehicle, or they get thrown back the same number of inches as the explosion.

abortedsoul wrote:Well, since this is posted in YMTC (which is about how you play in your games, not about RAW arguments) I say that anyone that assaults, and destroys, a vehicle first turn gets a 1d6 consolidate if they wreck the vehicle, or they get thrown back the same number of inches as the explosion.

Correction It SHOULD be about how you play the game, and is pretty much controlled by those who like RAW arguments

RAI and common sense generally get hung on a peg by the door in YMDC, and RAW can come to some pretty ridiculous results.

Personally I play it as the vehicle being immobile, as it hasn't moved yet. It may not be RAW, but if the RAW is that it's physically impossible to bring the buzzsaw into contact with it then the RAW is a bit gone.. How you play it is between you and your friends. In tournaments, where RAW arguements come canned, on tap, hot, chilled, shaken and stirred it's going to be the TO's call anyway

abortedsoul wrote:Well, since this is posted in YMTC (which is about how you play in your games, not about RAW arguments) I say that anyone that assaults, and destroys, a vehicle first turn gets a 1d6 consolidate if they wreck the vehicle, or they get thrown back the same number of inches as the explosion.

You seem to misunderstand the nature of YMDC. The idea you've just put forward should go in the Proposed Rules forum.

40k You Made Da Call is how you and your mates play the rules. That's how we play it- did you have a spot of trouble understanding what I wrote?

abortedsoul wrote:40k You Made Da Call is how you and your mates play the rules. That's how we play it- did you have a spot of trouble understanding what I wrote?

No. Perhaps you are new to forums, and don't understand the purpose of a moderator? Part of our job is to try to keep various kinds of content steered to the sub-forums intended or best-suited for said content.

Dakka Forum Index wrote:
40K You Make Da Call
Want to discuss 40k rules interpretations? This is the place. Caution: Can get heated, but also can be informative.

40K Proposed Rules
Want to discuss how a current 40K rule could be improved? Also the place to discuss 40K rules of your own and GW experimental 40K rules.

You Make Da Call is for discussion of interpretations of the 40k rules. Not for discussing entirely new rules written by players at home and used by agreement with their friends. Proposed Rules is a great home for that kind of content.

For further information, I recommend checking out this thread:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/253892.page

Mannahnin wrote:Good point. 6" scout move + 6" normal move + fleet + charge could work. I should build a Shrike list at some point.

The 10-man squad of infiltrating + fleet Thunder Hammer / Storm Shield Terminators definitely does funny things the first time you run it.