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So, I was just thinking about the older version of the ork codex, and it got me thinking about old rules that I really miss. Like the Choppa rule. Being able to reduce armor saves to 4+ was awesome. Man, I miss that!!! Also, wasn't there a rule that said, if you won combat, you could consolidate into base contact with another enemy unit, so you'd stay locked in combat? So, you could just hopscotch from one unit to another without ever being shot at? I seem to remember that. That was awesome.

But then I started thinking about rules I DON'T miss. Like the old area terrain rule. UGH!!! Remember that? I can shoot into area terrain, but not through it. And, if you're in area terrain, you have to be within x inches of the edge to be able to shoot out of it, or into it, blah blah blah. Man, I hated that rule. Anyway, what about you guys. What rules do you miss and not miss?

This isn't really proposing any new rules, so a topic like this would be better suited to 40k General Discussion (here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/forums/show/69.page).

Oh sorry. I thought, since it was a rules discussion it would go here. I'll ask to have it moved.

Consolidating out of combat back into your vehicle. Talk about abuse.

Also all vehicles 1/2 the guys can fire out. No fire point rules at that time.

I don't miss consolidating into other combats. I hated that the moment a squad of Khorne berserkers hit your line they'd just roll from squad to squad forever.

I miss 3rd ed penetrating 5's. Was so much fun watching vehicles go flying.

I don't miss the 4th ed 'clean up 2" and no one strikes back' assault rules.

Choppaz reducing armor to 4+ was the first thing I thought of after reading the thread title.

Another one for not missing consolidating into new combats. That was just way too abusive.

4E Vehicle penetration is one I won't miss.

Perils inflicting an S6 hit for autokilling T3 psykers. I think they wanted something that would just wound on 2's, but didn't quite think it through.

I certainly don't miss 4E LoS rules. While TLoS has some notable issues, the ridiculousness of the 4E LoS rules, at least how they were played, quite often meant that you could never draw LoS to enemy units until they were already on your side of the board.

I'm glad I'll never, ever have to see the 4E Skimmer rules again. Those were just...not fun to play against. At all.

Anyone remember Flying Circus lists that you couldn't hurt, couldn't see, and just consolidated up your line from turn 2 onwards?

That said, I do miss the old Defensive Weapons rules (although I'd still love to see them changed to a modifier rather than a S limit). Now we've got tons of rules for various armies just for sidestepping the new rules.

Victory Points, god do I miss those. Yes they are in the 5E rulebook, but basically as a "here's something you can try if you want" thing, meaning, basically never. KP are such a terrible mechanic it hurts.

Favoured Units getting benefits and the whole legion rules set. Those made Chaos Fun (even if I kept loosing just as badly as now).

I don't miss for IG player's sake Veterans being Elite choices and having a 5+ armour save

Overwatch, Jeebus, how I miss Overwatch.

Grenades being able to be as a weapon instead of only in modifying CC.

Missing the RT/2nd ed simple addition and subtraction for armour saves, to hit etc. Missing not being able to break from CC and leg it back volountarily. Legion of the damned, since RT they only really managed to almost get it right with that army list, guess power armour is the only way for GW :(

Not missing? The crazy complicatedness of some RT rules like for robots and the original vehicle stuff

cyrax777 wrote:Grenades being able to be as a weapon instead of only in modifying CC.

+1


I dont miss the choppa rule, it was just stupid to treat terminator, servo and scout armour all the same.

I miss 2nd ed.

I don't miss 2nd ed.

Much as 2nd ed. was a ridiculous, over-the-top, easy to break game and the reforms of 3rd were a breath of fresh air, I miss a lot of the crazier stuff in terms of wargear and special rules.

And yeah, I miss being able to throw my grenades.

I miss most of second edition. Strategy cards, rapid fire dice, vehicle datafaxes, separate armor saves and field saves, loads of wargear. The game just feels dumbed down since then.

warpcrafter wrote:I miss most of second edition. Strategy cards, rapid fire dice, vehicle datafaxes, separate armor saves and field saves, loads of wargear. The game just feels dumbed down since then.

Well, it needed streamlining. I would like to see a shift towards some of the intricacies of 2nd again. Somewhere happily in between. And since we're living in a fantasy world here, balanced Codices all released with the edition, a GW forum with active involvement from the design team and plastic kits for everythiiiiiing!

*drifts off into happy dream world*

Rules I don't miss:

Save modifiers of any kind. You paid a ton of points for Power Armor and since nearly everything had a -1 save mod, you were basically paying for a 4+ save. Lame.

3rd ed. blast template rules. You had to remove guys from under the template, but you could move the template around to hit the same # of guys however you liked.

Obligation to fire at the closest target. This saw wayyyy too much abuse.

2nd ed. hand to hand combat, period.



Rules I do miss:

Overwatch.

5+ Ubiquitous cover saves (versus the current 4+)

H2H w/ Vehicles rules.

All shooting declared simultaneously. It's not practical in 5th edition, with things costing 1/2 or less of their 2nd ed. counterpart, but it made target prioritization a gamble. Nowadays you just shoot til it's stunned and move on.

Oh, Overwatch. I forgot about overwatch. I do miss that.
I also forgot about the craptastic old skimmer rules. The Peekaboo I'm shooting you stuff. I do not miss that at all.

Vaktathi wrote:Another one for not missing consolidating into new combats. That was just way too abusive.

4E Vehicle penetration is one I won't miss.

Perils inflicting an S6 hit for autokilling T3 psykers. I think they wanted something that would just wound on 2's, but didn't quite think it through.

I certainly don't miss 4E LoS rules. While TLoS has some notable issues, the ridiculousness of the 4E LoS rules, at least how they were played, quite often meant that you could never draw LoS to enemy units until they were already on your side of the board.

I'm glad I'll never, ever have to see the 4E Skimmer rules again. Those were just...not fun to play against. At all.

Anyone remember Flying Circus lists that you couldn't hurt, couldn't see, and just consolidated up your line from turn 2 onwards?

Or, as I would say, rules that I don't miss = 4th edition.

There are only two things I miss from 4th ed, the old wound allocation rules, and the old line of sight rules. Other than that, the whole rules edition is best left forgotten, ESPECIALLY victory points.

As for codex-specific, I miss the old god-centered chaos, I miss the old storm shields (3++ all the time is ridiculous), I miss the old blood angels (back when they were the best SM shooty army) and I miss some of the imperial guard's old wargear.

As it keeps popping up: What is/was Overwatch?

AlmightyWalrus wrote:As it keeps popping up: What is/was Overwatch?

Overwatch used to let you neglect shooting in your turn to shoot in the opponent's movement phase. That way you could guard a particular area and if the other guy got in your LOS, you could blast him.

Choppas 4+ was great!!!

Armageddon Codex!

Burnas used to have 2D6 armor penetration!!

Zzap guns used to auto-hit!

Best new rule in 5th is the Run rule. Foot Orks always needed more speed!

NuggzTheNinja wrote:Rules I don't miss:

Save modifiers of any kind. You paid a ton of points for Power Armor and since nearly everything had a -1 save mod, you were basically paying for a 4+ save. Lame.

3rd ed. blast template rules. You had to remove guys from under the template, but you could move the template around to hit the same # of guys however you liked.

Obligation to fire at the closest target. This saw wayyyy too much abuse.

2nd ed. hand to hand combat, period.



Rules I do miss:

Overwatch.

5+ Ubiquitous cover saves (versus the current 4+)

H2H w/ Vehicles rules.

All shooting declared simultaneously. It's not practical in 5th edition, with things costing 1/2 or less of their 2nd ed. counterpart, but it made target prioritization a gamble. Nowadays you just shoot til it's stunned and move on.

From what I remember, 90% of people figured out how awful the close combat rules were for 2nd ed. after a couple games and started using the WFB system, which was probably why they adopted it from 3rd ed. on. (But we kept the parry and fumble rules, Oh, I loved those!) By the way, they took the streamlining thing too far in my estimation. My gaming group even went so far as to specifically allocate attacks and a bunch of other stuff that slowed down the game, but made it more interesting.

warpcrafter wrote:

NuggzTheNinja wrote:Rules I don't miss:

Save modifiers of any kind. You paid a ton of points for Power Armor and since nearly everything had a -1 save mod, you were basically paying for a 4+ save. Lame.

3rd ed. blast template rules. You had to remove guys from under the template, but you could move the template around to hit the same # of guys however you liked.

Obligation to fire at the closest target. This saw wayyyy too much abuse.

2nd ed. hand to hand combat, period.



Rules I do miss:

Overwatch.

5+ Ubiquitous cover saves (versus the current 4+)

H2H w/ Vehicles rules.

All shooting declared simultaneously. It's not practical in 5th edition, with things costing 1/2 or less of their 2nd ed. counterpart, but it made target prioritization a gamble. Nowadays you just shoot til it's stunned and move on.

From what I remember, 90% of people figured out how awful the close combat rules were for 2nd ed. after a couple games and started using the WFB system, which was probably why they adopted it from 3rd ed. on. (But we kept the parry and fumble rules, Oh, I loved those!) By the way, they took the streamlining thing too far in my estimation. My gaming group even went so far as to specifically allocate attacks and a bunch of other stuff that slowed down the game, but made it more interesting.

What was so wrong with 2nd's close combat rules? They'd be a little clunky if two large units were fighting each other but other than that they're just different. I always liked the idea that your badass character (Wolf Lord with Lightning Claws in my case) could be surrounded and then kill everything in a single combat. Probably the only thing that didn't make sense was that once you got more than 3 or 4 attacks they started to become a liability. Anytime more attacks is a bad thing just doesn't seem right.

Amerikon wrote:Anytime more attacks is a bad thing just doesn't seem right.

cf. the current wound allocation rules. I will NOT miss 5th ed wound wrapping once 6th ed comes out.

As a Necron player I miss the glancing table.