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Hey guys, it has come to my attention more and more that people are starting to use the mighty carnifex again in their lists.
I am thrilled by this, the carnifex have a reputation to hold.
Now look, these guys cost less than a HiveTyrant and can be just as good. for one, they have Str 10, so breaking av 14 is a walk in the park.
Two, they are a great gunbeast with those lovely TL Devourers and can really screw up your opponents day; and to be fair, what other MC can come in a brood if need be?

so guys, ideas? comments?

They are really expensive and not as good as the other choices available. With only 4 wounds and 3+ save... they are going down fast to missile launchers. That's a huge weakness where I play, as every marine army is packing cyclone missile launchers, typhoon missile launchers, long fangs, etc... You can get around that by putting it in a pod, but now it's even more expensive and can't go in a brood. Unfortunately, just not going to be the most competative option available.

It's been said the best use for a Carnifex is to use the parts to make a Tervigon. That's a sad comment, but I find it hard to argue with at this time.

-Myst

Ah see, this is what is interesting, most people are saying they can ignore this point simply because of cover. But do you know how hard it is to cover a MC? +FNP from tervigon if one is nearby. I think that as a CC beast they are unreliable and will not survive to CC, what i think they work best as is as 2 things, a wall of armour to soak up fire, and a gunbeast with the capability to hold it's own in melee.

The best way to use them, from what I've seen, is you take two Tyranid Primes and attach them to a group of two Carnifexs. Run a line of gaunts in front of the primes to give them cover and you'll grant a cover save to the Carnifexs as well. You also get an opportunity to use wound allocation to your advantage.

In this age, with Massed Poison Weapons, Massed Rockets, and with the new Inclusion of massed Force weapons, Monstrous creatures in general, don't have the effectiveness, or the durability they used to.

If a Carnifex was about 40-50 less points, then it would be worth looking at. As of right now, it's not even close to worth it.

A good point sir, would you think the carnifexes with 2 primes would be a good threat?

*matthewbland282* wrote:A good point sir, would you think the carnifexes with 2 primes would be a good threat?

It's something I'd be willing to give a try. You run with bare so they remain as cheap as possible and just truck them along with the primes till they can get near something they can eat.

I don't have the set-up to try it yet but when I get around to running my nids more often I am going to give it a try.

hmmmm would you agree FNP on them would also be handy from a Tervigon

*matthewbland282* wrote:Hey guys, it has come to my attention more and more that people are starting to use the mighty carnifex again in their lists.
I am thrilled by this, the carnifex have a reputation to hold.
Now look, these guys cost less than a HiveTyrant and can be just as good. for one, they have Str 10, so breaking av 14 is a walk in the park.
Two, they are a great gunbeast with those lovely TL Devourers and can really screw up your opponents day; and to be fair, what other MC can come in a brood if need be?

so guys, ideas? comments?

Jaws of the World Wolf...?

Shovan wrote:

*matthewbland282* wrote:A good point sir, would you think the carnifexes with 2 primes would be a good threat?

It's something I'd be willing to give a try. You run with bare so they remain as cheap as possible and just truck them along with the primes till they can get near something they can eat.

I don't have the set-up to try it yet but when I get around to running my nids more often I am going to give it a try.

The problem with this is, that Mech will be running circles around you. Not to mention, that is a huge chunk of points. If you want to run MC in your heavy support, Trygons are really your best bet. They have Fleet, six wounds, and a much higher init, and a ranged attack if your not running. All for only 40 points more. In my opinion, the Trygon is the clear winner.

lol bro you dont need to quote original post xD
+JoTWW dont always work.


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I agree that the Trygon is a better choice, but the question was, do carnifex suck? (aka not very good)

I've heard that its good to take 2 sets of sything talons on them.

Carnifex rock. Imo, easily the best heavy support choice for nids. Trygons are lacking a bit as they have no cover. Carnifex are cheaper and/or more versatile. For the same cost of a trygon, you get 12 S6 shots, S10 on the charge and 8 wounds as opposed to 6. Sure WS and I is lower, but atleast it will reach close combat.

Trygons are ok I usually run 3. But I've been switching to dual brainleech carnefexen with two primes. The primes have SOTW and that cuts down on force weapons, and twin boneswords cut through GK like candy. Use your fast elements and deathleaper to shut down JoTWW. DE arn't as bad of a match up as people make them out to be.

I don't think Carnifexes suck as much as people thought soon after the book came out.

The main weakness is W4 however if you shield them in some way it should be possible to use their strengths (squadrons, S10 and so on.)

Night Lords wrote:Carnifex rock. Imo, easily the best heavy support choice for nids. Trygons are lacking a bit as they have no cover. Carnifex are cheaper and/or more versatile. For the same cost of a trygon, you get 12 S6 shots, S10 on the charge and 8 wounds as opposed to 6. Sure WS and I is lower, but atleast it will reach close combat.

This quote is just wrong.
Carnifexes are BARELY cheaper. Most often they are taken with 2x TL-BL devourers, which makes them 20 points cheaper then a Trygon with adrenal glands. There's no comparing the 2, Trygons win in every possible way.
Carnifexes have 4 wounds, and "For the same cost of a trygon, you get ..<snip>... 8 wounds as opposed to 6." is just wrong. 2 Carnifexes with toys = ~360-400 points. Trygon with adrenal = 210. Points per wound is a win for Trygons.

Trygons are tougher to kill model for model and point for point, they do more damage in melee even with "only" S6 compared to a carnifexes' S9, they are better at killing vehicles because they can actually catch them with fleet and hit them with paired scything talons. They get deep strike for free instead of forking out for a pod. WS5 is an excellent defensive bonus in melee so those fists you are bound to come across aren't hitting on 3+. Having more then Initiative 1 helps hugely against fists and jaws of the world wolf. It goes on and on and on.

The only time I've seen carnifexes used with any effect is with primes as a death star unit. You have to realize this unit is slow as dirt though, and only has a range of 18" with it's devourer fire, so it's easy to avoid. It's an area denial tool more then a wrecking ball. I believe it was someone on Dakka that used the 2xfex + 2xprime unit due to an ork opponent, as his nobs were wrecking him. The carnifexes were able to instant death the nobs so really helped him cut the heart out of his opponents army.

The unit also expensive as all hell, weighing in at around 600 point. For that cost you could get 2 Trygons and like 12 Genestealers which would be hella faster and do significantly more damage across the board.

All that said, in the current meta with DE and GK all monstrous creatures are becoming increasingly worthless. You'd be better off getting something else.

In this age, with Massed Poison Weapons, Massed Rockets, and with the new Inclusion of massed Force weapons, Monstrous creatures in general, don't have the effectiveness, or the durability they used to.

Thats a bit of a vague statement.
There are alot more factors in it than just that.
Mass Poisoned shots are by far MC killers, the rest however are situational.

Alot have EW, so force weapons can be ignored.
Plenty ave 2+ saves or a ++ save to follow.
All greater daemons are a quick example.

Also, again, that statement is a bit too far fetched.
With daemons, MC's are one of the main tank hunters for the army.
They can also be used for grinding down infantry.
That by my mind makes them both effective and durable.







OT: The fex is nice, but its points have been put up a bit too much.
They trygon also hurts it alot since its stats are a bit better.
However, fex's still have 1 up on them for tank hunting.
Not only can they take a H.venom cannon, they are also S10 MC's, meaning you will pen anything without any problems.
Compared to the Trygon not even getting a pen against AV14 on average (6+7=13)
So, armour tipping keeps them alive, but as said, the 3+ doesent help thier cause.
That however is an issue that pretty much 90% of units have in said role.

Erm, you realize that when you fight a vehicle you fight the BACK armor right? With the except of a Land Raider and monolith, the Trygon is better against every vehicle in the game pretty much. Even against a LR, a Trygon with Adrenal gland is S7+2D6, that averages 14 and with 7 attacks stands a decent chance of tipping a LR. Granted that a trygon can't hurt a monolith and a fex can, but both should ignore monoliths and shred troops for the phase out anyways.

On your rant about MC's overall effectiveness. Not all (or many outside of demons really) have EW, none of which are Tyranid. MCs are pivotal units in many armys, like demons and Tyranids, but the spam of poison and force weapons (and anti-demon weapons for GK) are making cornerstone units and time tested tactics increasingly ineffective. If the next codex or 2 continues the trend of large quantities of ID weapons, S8/AP3+ firepower and/or massed poison weapons it will further push Tyranid monstrous creatures towards extinction. You can call it evolution of the meta if you want, but it's moving units that were considered "good" into the column of "bad" as time goes by.

So on the assault it on average glances it.
glances dont do alot.
And yes, the idea is to hunt AV14.

Would be pointless chasing transports when you have hive guard.

Also, why has no one ever played against necrons?
Warriors in reserve, castle up with 3 lith's.
Phase out is no longer a problem.

Also, with nids you will want to drag them into combat.
Something you cant do every time a lith drags them away.
So yes, they do need to be popped in some cases.





Not as far as good to bad, but it is punishing them heavily.
Also, due to outcry i can see nids gaining EW in synapse again when they get updated next (nowhere near soon)
GK arent really a good comparison though as alot of armies struggle against them.
Horde orks lose 50% of a unit to cleaning flame, then get torn apart by halberds.
Nids catch the same in horde.
Anything big gets ID'd.

All in all, they will be a pain in the arse until the next book comes out, that will then take over its place.

Also, daemon hunters only really hurt daemons with a tailored list.
Unless you spam DK's, dark excommunication isnt about, meaning you tear away at the knights with power weps.

From the little I've played against nids (a friend just got some models to flesh out his old 'nids from way back, including a classic screamer killer) they aren't terrible, but I can see why they aren't as popular as used to be. They die to missiles, but alot of things die to missiles in the nid army, and a big thing for the nids that I've seen is trying to overload the enemy with threats, and ignoring a carnifex can bite you in the . My friend uses gargoyles and other gribblies to hide him, and often gets him romping about in an area with 2+ objectives nearby if possible. They seem more like a wall of meat, and if they hit the enemy its a bonus. I can't remember much 'nid shooting, but I think my mate should use try some guns on the fex, see if its worth losing the run moves.

Shovan wrote:The best way to use them, from what I've seen, is you take two Tyranid Primes and attach them to a group of two Carnifexs. Run a line of gaunts in front of the primes to give them cover and you'll grant a cover save to the Carnifexs as well. You also get an opportunity to use wound allocation to your advantage.

I'm a little confused on how this works. The Primes provide cover to the Carnifexes even though they are in the same unit?


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Aaaannnndddddd I just found the answer in another thread.

You could always just hang a unit of Venomthropes around the Carnifexes to get them a 5+ cover save... not as effective as the Primes, but it's an option.

Fex's are not terrible... they are overshadowed and not nearly as useful point for point.

Carnifexen have: S9... wow that was a short list.

Tervigans cost the exact same, have more wounds, less strength, and supporting factors to the army.

2 Things that are often done with Carnifexen.

1) Ninjafex- Dual scything talons, AG, assault grenades. SO ironic that carnifexen are one of the 2 tyranids that can have assault grenades. This close combat canifex is quite nice with its 4's rerolling to hit and S10 on the charge. Sad thing is... that with the charge it is I4!!! Huh? so it is striking at the same speed as most all infantry? they get to hit him? Not that big a deal really..

WS3, so things like daemon princes slaughter them... though the daemon prince probably would anyway. just like if you took a Tervigan into CC with a daemon price :-)

Against vehicles? Yea... can we say overkill? auto penns? S6 +2D6 might as well be auto-penn. S10 + 2D6 is amazing against Landraiders and Monoliths (- the 2D6)... and really.. that's a lot of points on something that slow... and if the vehicle moves, your chances are cut, even with dual talons.

This build is a little under 200 points. A few more points and you get a Trygon... which is far more useful in both respects.

Devilfex: 2 TL devourers. 12 S6 TL shots. Scary! Though... for 10 points you can take a hive tyrant with the same build... and actually have some skill in other aspects wile also providing synapse and maybe even add some options that provide supporting factors.

Is the carnifex bad? No. Is it over cost and not as useful as other options.. hell yea.


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Andilus Greatsword wrote:You could always just hang a unit of Venomthropes around the Carnifexes to get them a 5+ cover save... not as effective as the Primes, but it's an option.

If you aren't taking other MC's (Trygons, Tervigans, Hive tyant with wings and you list for some reason doesn't involve gargoyles) then yes, the Prime is probably the best option, but venomthropes for many MC's are amazing in quite a number of respects, and amazing for our smaller guys in the respects that don't involve the cover saves.

Are the two best ways to run Carnies either 2x Scy Talons or 2x TL Devourers, or are there other ways to run them?

Those seem the best to me... but that just illustrates how lackluster the unit is compared to other things in the codex (namely Trygon). The only reason to take a carnifex is to play a friendly or fluffy army, becuase by the very nature of taking a fex you are choosing a less competative option than you could be. Trying to modify the rest of the army to make them "not suck" is not the thought process that will often lead to a top-tier competative army.

Carnage43 pretty much detailed all the reasons why fexes aren't that good. If you like fexes and want to play them, go ahead. But... at that point you are taking a unit that you want to play with because it's fun, you aren't taking the most effective 'win the game' option available.

-Myst

whoadirty wrote:Are the two best ways to run Carnies either 2x Scy Talons or 2x TL Devourers, or are there other ways to run them?

Pretty much IMO. The only other thing I can think of adding is a tyranid prime, to give him cover saves and the lashwhips to hit first. But I find the prime more useful used in other places in the army.