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I might be the only one to think so, but i have noticed peoples (especially competitive) armies are becoming dull.

They seem to have lots of the exact same unit (okay necrons excused) with the same upgrades and weapons, in same transport.

Okay, its effective but where is the fun in modelling and painting many different things based on them complementing each other?


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I mean in the same army, for example. 2 idendical daemon pronces, 4 identical plague marine units and 9 obliterators.

Spam has always been a big thing in tournament armies, and since the Internet communities have boomed, their lists get spread around a lot. As a result, people hear their lists are good, and mimic them accordingly. This isn't anything new; the old Marine army tournament builds were sometimes 6 squads of Marines in lascannon razorbacks with lascannons and plasma guns in their squads.

Simple to say, a lot of people who build armies like this (but certainly not all) aren't in it for the fun of painting and modeling. They're in it to win. I was at a tournament a week or so ago and was actually surprised how little spamming there was. It was a low-point doubles tourney though, so I think it kept that sort of thing in check.

Brother SRM wrote:Spam has always been a big thing in tournament armies, and since the Internet communities have boomed, their lists get spread around a lot. As a result, people hear their lists are good, and mimic them accordingly. This isn't anything new; the old Marine army tournament builds were sometimes 6 squads of Marines in lascannon razorbacks with lascannons and plasma guns in their squads.

Simple to say, a lot of people who build armies like this (but certainly not all) aren't in it for the fun of painting and modeling. They're in it to win. I was at a tournament a week or so ago and was actually surprised how little spamming there was. It was a low-point doubles tourney though, so I think it kept that sort of thing in check.

SRM's spot on. It's also often a case of such armies being easier to use/more forgiving. You'll find however that seemingly most tournament winners don't use such armies and instead use those they know inside out and therefore rely on their ability, rather than their armies. You only need to look at Adepticon to see an example of this IMHO.

What exactly counts as spam?

For instance, in my 1750 I run most of my units in pairs. A pair of chimeltavets, a pair of demolishers, a pair of russes, a pair of sentinels etc. Does running pairs count as spam-lite?

Tau don't have much they can't spam near 2k+, half of their codex is useless.

Trickstick wrote:What exactly counts as spam?

For instance, in my 1750 I run most of my units in pairs. A pair of chimeltavets, a pair of demolishers, a pair of russes, a pair of sentinels etc. Does running pairs count as spam-lite?

Spam means using a lot of the same unit to fill out a niche. What you have there doesn't look it's a spamming one.

I like spam armies they tend to make more sense then the random selection of units that go into a "casual" army for instance razor spam list look like armoured recon to me and makes more sens thene a random collection of models.

Some spam units can be pretty fluffy.
Other spam lists can be completely out there...

I personally love spam lists.
Not to play, but to play against
as much as they're boring to play against, and usually crush you on the first turn... they're so SAME that you can figure out good tactics to avoid them.

For example, when I'm playing against a tournament army in annihilation, I don't care if I win or not. BUT! BUT! that spam lister does! so, I hide in places where my army can't be seen. and force my opponent to come and charge me, with those heavy lascannons.

usually... this works because my opponent will come forward with a squad to draw me out... but then I just kill that one squad. it usually works a treat.

With your Chaos example, there isn't many ways to play CSM competitively that doesn't rely on using the same 3-4 units over and over.

Other armies like Vanilla Marines or IG can get away with a lot more diversity because they have a wider and better arrange of units to take.

That being said, I personally find triples to be the worst example of spamming especially in the heavy support section.

3x Manticores looks spammy whereas 2x Manticores and a Leman Russ doesn't but thats a personal opinion.

No kidding. I like to be competitive, but spam armies get boring real quick.

Brother SRM wrote:Spam has always been a big thing in tournament armies, and since the Internet communities have boomed, their lists get spread around a lot. As a result, people hear their lists are good, and mimic them accordingly. This isn't anything new; the old Marine army tournament builds were sometimes 6 squads of Marines in lascannon razorbacks with lascannons and plasma guns in their squads.

Simple to say, a lot of people who build armies like this (but certainly not all) aren't in it for the fun of painting and modeling. They're in it to win. I was at a tournament a week or so ago and was actually surprised how little spamming there was. It was a low-point doubles tourney though, so I think it kept that sort of thing in check.

I wouldn't say that necessarily. I'm building a very spammy IG Mech Vets list that I'm having a hell of a time painting for fun. I've spent as much on modeling nicknacks as I have on miniatures for this army. My CSM army is the typical CSM oblit and lash spam, but a lot went into modeling my min/max plague marines.

It's possible to be competitive AND well-modeled. At least in my meta, most competitive players are actually damn good painters and modelers as well.

I only play with friends, so I just end up buying and building the army I want to make and one that I will have fun with. I'm certain if most people saw my list they'd laugh at me

Which is fluffier? An army with 3-6 rhino tac squads all loaded out the same, triple dreads as fire support, and some land speeders as recon, or an army with 2 tacs, 2 scouts, a predator, shooting termies, a dev squad, and a vindicator?

Look at GWs Codex organization. In the first example army, you conceivably have just one companies units (2nd-5th, and 7th companies can do this IIRC). In the second, you have termies from first company, scouts from tenth, devs from either 9th or 2nd-5th, preds and vindicator from the armory.

Spam armies are fluffier than diverse armies. Diverse armies are what IRL we call a motley collection of miss matched units. Trying to go for "combined arms" is nice in theory, but even then you need redundancy to make it work.

Brother SRM wrote:Spam has always been a big thing in tournament armies, and since the Internet communities have boomed, their lists get spread around a lot. As a result, people hear their lists are good, and mimic them accordingly. This isn't anything new; the old Marine army tournament builds were sometimes 6 squads of Marines in lascannon razorbacks with lascannons and plasma guns in their squads.

Simple to say, a lot of people who build armies like this (but certainly not all) aren't in it for the fun of painting and modeling. They're in it to win. I was at a tournament a week or so ago and was actually surprised how little spamming there was. It was a low-point doubles tourney though, so I think it kept that sort of thing in check.

QFT.

One of the strongest lists in my local league when I first started playing (May 1999) was full of 5 man squads of SM with lascannon & plasma guns, in las/plas razorbacks. It's always been around.

But IME it isn't actually as common in tournaments as the internet would make you think. With all the work that goes into building and painting an army, a lot of folks prefer to build something with a bit more variety. Or just don't want to invest the time and money to buy, build, paint and field 12 razorbacks, or whatever the latest flavor of spam is.

I "Spam" 60 Scouts. Yes, 60. No, I do not have 60 scout models, but rather use some SM models with shoulders depicting what company they are from. I have around 10 ACTUAL Scouts. Why? Because I find the models rather dull and boring.

The units aren't the same though, I have 2 Sniper Teams (of 10), and 3-4 CC teams with hidden PWs. They hold their own with weight of attacks and can strike down a good number of models after the Snipers soften them up.

2 Ironclads and 2 Riflemen Dreads help support them. The two Ironclads move up with the Scouts, killing pretty much anything higher than T5, while the Riflemen eat Rhinos and Chimeras over and over again until there is nothing left in the Vehicle catagory that they can target. Then they go after HQs forcing them to take 5 or 6 wounds, generally killing a terminator or a few guardsmen.

Spamming Certain units? Yes, but it is very fun to play as and against, as only a two units in my entire army have Power Armor in a Marine Codex. And is a nice change of pace.

I spam units in my Ork army quite a bit, because they just don't have that much variety in the troops section, and some units, such as 12 boyz in a trukk need to be taken in quantity to accomplish anything. I rarely encounter much spam, except for the irritating 2x2 Leman Russ squadrons combined with a healthy chimeltavets (Love that term, by the way) section.

Play smaller points sized games.

Jubear wrote:I like spam armies they tend to make more sense then the random selection of units that go into a "casual" army for instance razor spam list look like armoured recon to me and makes more sens thene a random collection of models.

I'm not asking people to take a random collection of models, lots of armies i see have 2 or 3 troops the same or similar, with many different supporting units. i dont think pairs are quite as bad as long as its not just everything in pairs
Personally in my chaos army, i like to use a few similar CSM units, but if something im trying to do involves my daemon prince, or terminators in raider for example, and they get destroyed, i need to adapt my game, not just try again with an identical unit.

I agree that plans are likely to be more effective if they are not so easily ruined, and i see the attraction of pairs. but it takes a lot of skill to adapt to a constantly changing battlefield, and a lot of lists seem to be a bit no-brainer.

This is true, but it also depends what you spam. 30 BT Crusaders (half of which would be scouts) ain't that scary, but 15 missile launcher long fangs are.

It's a matter of which and why.

notabot187 wrote:Which is fluffier? An army with 3-6 rhino tac squads all loaded out the same, triple dreads as fire support, and some land speeders as recon, or an army with 2 tacs, 2 scouts, a predator, shooting termies, a dev squad, and a vindicator?

Look at GWs Codex organization. In the first example army, you conceivably have just one companies units (2nd-5th, and 7th companies can do this IIRC). In the second, you have termies from first company, scouts from tenth, devs from either 9th or 2nd-5th, preds and vindicator from the armory.

Spam armies are fluffier than diverse armies. Diverse armies are what IRL we call a motley collection of miss matched units. Trying to go for "combined arms" is nice in theory, but even then you need redundancy to make it work.

There's plenty of fluffy spam lists, sure.

The issue comes from, I think, upgrade selection, not unit selection.When you have 6 Rhino mounted Tactical squads, I don't see a problem. When they all have a Missile Launcher, a Melta gun and a hidden power fist, I start to take issue with it being fluffy, since fluff has always had different units with different equipment.

Slightly off-topic, but I once had a guy complain that I only had crusader squads as troops in my BT army. Appearently, I was "spamming"...

The thing is, even theming an army leads to spam. Basing your Black Templars around Crusade squads for example. Or you want to represent a Battle Company, as notabot187 said? you're spamming tactical squads. Want to represent a Tyranid gaunt wave? You're spamming Hormagaunts and Termagants. Want to represent a Steel Legion army? You're spamming infantry platoons and Chimeras. Want to represent a World Eaters army? Ypu're spamming Khorne Berzerkers amd/or Chaos Space Marine squads.

Themes are built usually around one or two core units, and those units tend to get spammed, since once you start mixing in a bunch of other units, your theme is gone. If you start adding range to that World Eaters army in the form of Predators or Obliterators, it's not really a World Eaters army anymore, it's a red Chaos Marine army. Once you start putting Sternguard in that battle company, it's not a battle company any more.

Some get away with it - adding veterans, stormtroopers, hell, even other tanks, to that Steel Legion army still makes it a Steel Legion army, and adding a couple of oter Tyranids to that gaunt wave is still fluffy as they're supported by Tervigons, Hive Tyrants and Zoanthropesfor synapse.

But in general, a theme means limiting yourself to what you take, which leads to spamming units once you get above 1500 points.

I tend to build a list that is themed in its use. Then I just keep playing that list sometimes till I know how it works.

I've got to say, as an old-school gamer who's recently developed a renewed interest in the hobby, I find the current generation of gamer's obsessions with "builds" and "lists" a bit odd. In the 'old days' (I realise I sound like an old man lecturing the kids) we just bought whatever units we liked and thought were cool, and fielded whatever we had. Seems it's become too tactical and everyone just wants to beat the other guy. I can understand - it's a competitive hobby - but I think the focus should be on building an army that inspires you, and creatively motivates you, not one that's just there to trounce your opponent. My eldar army consists mostly of guardians, even though guardians suck on the battlefield. I don't care, I like guardians, and I like shuriken catapults, I think they're cool for some reason. I'm rambling, pass me my cane.

Spam is

HQ
Elite A with B upgrade + C upgrade
Elite A with B upgrade + C upgrade
Elite A with B upgrade + C upgrade
Troop Z with Y upgrade +Z upgrade
Troop Z with Y upgrade +Z upgrade
Troop Z with Y upgrade +Z upgrade
Troop Z with Y upgrade +Z upgrade
Troop Z with Y upgrade +Z upgrade
Troop Z with Y upgrade +Z upgrade
Troop Z with Y upgrade +Z upgrade
etc

Not only is it an attempt at WAAC (because why else would you do it? exceptions to necrons!) but its arrogance - you're saying 'this unit can deal with anything, ergo lots of them can deal with lots of anything'

It's not imaginative at all not is it flexable. However it does mean that you can become proficient quite quickly as you only have a few units to master.

Phototoxin, it's not arrogance, it's often true. Some units are really good for many things, so you take lots of them. For example, in a DoA army, the most versatile unit you have is assault marines with a fist and two melta guns. They can deal with infantry in CC and tanks in range and CC. They're good, and so you take a lot of them.

It's also to do with target saturation. One vindicator is scary, but one shot can take it out and then the threat is gone. Three vindicators means your opponent has to choose which one to aim at, and whichever he chooses there are two more. The key idea is making it hard for your opponent to neutralise all threats to a specific part of his army.

For example, if you run a meched up close-range army then your main worry is long-ranged light-anti-tank; they can pop your transports. If your opponant has one squad that's good at popping transports, then you've only got that to worry about. Stay out of LOS/Range or kill it fast and you'll be fine. However, if they have three such squads it makes your job much much harder.

I tell you whats the funniest about spam list where your oppenet says "Well yeah my armoured blood angels will wipe the floor with you" 2hrs later you walk away with victory.