Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I'm thinking of getting into WarmaHordes since it is really blowing up around my area and I quite like the models and story for the game. I'm somewhat briefed on the rules but I can catch myself up on that, I just had a few questions about some things I can't find out by reading.

1. Are there any factions that can make a very good army with only Casters/Locks and Jacks/Beasts? I really don't like units, the game to me seems coolest with Spell casters and big stompy things. As much as I dislike the thought of units, my competitive nature won't allow me to play a trash build just for fun. Something tournie worthy would be best, I don't need specifics just what Faction can do it and maybe where to look.

2. What is the "standard" point total or point total range?

3. Anything else that seems relevant for a new WarmaHordes player but a tabletop veteran?


Thanks guys.

The Prince of Excess wrote:I'm thinking of getting into WarmaHordes since it is really blowing up around my area and I quite like the models and story for the game. I'm somewhat briefed on the rules but I can catch myself up on that, I just had a few questions about some things I can't find out by reading.

1. Are there any factions that can make a very good army with only Casters/Locks and Jacks/Beasts? I really don't like units, the game to me seems coolest with Spell casters and big stompy things. As much as I dislike the thought of units, my competitive nature won't allow me to play a trash build just for fun. Something tournie worthy would be best, I don't need specifics just what Faction can do it and maybe where to look.

There are some armies that can run beast or ´jack heavy. Hordes armies tend to be heavier on beasts the Warmachine armies are on ´jacks due to the differences between Fury and Focus.

In the end it mostly depends on the Caster whether or not you can run beast/´jack heavy.
Beast/´jack only is not that competitive, though. It can work in lower point levels, but in higher levels you´ll miss the support and utilities units and solos will give your army. A menoth army without Choir, Reclaimers or Vassals for example won´t unlock the full potential of their ´jacks. And that is only considering the pure ´jack support.

2. What is the "standard" point total or point total range?

35-50 points around where I play. 100 points (with 2 Casters) is the biggest value played with something of a regularity, but quite rarely.

3. Anything else that seems relevant for a new WarmaHordes player but a tabletop veteran?

Expect dirty combinations of units and synergies that improve the units way beyond the actual stats. That´s what WarmaHordes is all about.

Thanks guys.

You´re welcome.

Pretty disappointing to hear that Jack/Beast exclusive isn't really viable, what in your opinion is the Faction/Caster combo that can be competitive with the most big things? It's just that WarmaHordes has always been iconically about the big stuff to me, there are a bunch of other skirmish games that use Infantry.

whoa whoa whoa

i run beast heavy and ive won my fair share of tournaments.

youll need a few support units here and there (especially at 50pts above) but that doesnt mean you can run mostly big stuff

youll be limited by your choice of casters/locks but i wouldnt say its not viable

and my meta is pretty varied (glut of cygnar players lately though)

Well what do you play? I'm gonna be up for awhile so I'm trying to get some leads and read up on them.

The Prince of Excess wrote:Pretty disappointing to hear that Jack/Beast exclusive isn't really viable, what in your opinion is the Faction/Caster combo that can be competitive with the most big things? It's just that WarmaHordes has always been iconically about the big stuff to me, there are a bunch of other skirmish games that use Infantry.

Well, I´m rather new at WarmaHordes as well, but as far as I know every faction has a beast/´jack caster. Some more than one.

From the two factions I play pKaya, eKaya, Baldur and maybe Kromac (Circle Orboros) or Amon Ad´Raza (Protectorate of Menoth) come to mind when thinking about casters that have good beast/´jack support.

But well, it´s only a matter of time until someone with more knowledge (like Malfred) comes around to answer your questions

Bakerofish wrote:whoa whoa whoa

i run beast heavy and ive won my fair share of tournaments.

youll need a few support units here and there (especially at 50pts above) but that doesnt mean you can run mostly big stuff

youll be limited by your choice of casters/locks but i wouldnt say its not viable

and my meta is pretty varied (glut of cygnar players lately though)

Well, like I said: I´m not that good of a player yet. And I was talking about beast only, so we don´t actually disagree ^^

Khador has Karchev and Cryx has Mortenebra if you want jack casters.

Cygnar has Kraye and then Legion of Everblight on the Hordes side of things can run very beast heavy lists. Also Skorne can run some filthy lists with caster lots of beast and then pain giver unit to help push the beasts to the limit.

I would say that you are not able to run pure caster beasts/ jacks list, you need some of the support solos/ units to help, but it is possible to run lists with almost all of the points in big guys.

I would look more at the hordes side of things for the big things on the table. Warmachine tends to only have one jack caster per faction and most of those need a unit or two. Mortenebra is probably the closest your gonna get. Using her theme list you spend four points on Warwitch sirens (two solo models) and the rest on jacks which get a point discount.

Over in hordes I hear that legion is the most able to go beast heavy. Support from the forsaken will help manage the fury. Circle would be my next point of call but I don't play any of those factions so I can't give any more advise.

@Prince

I play Circle and my favorite format is Tooth and Claw/Mangled Metal but my lists tend to be very similar no matter what format I play. I like a small number of stuff on the table.

If you want to play all beasts/jacks 25-35 points would be the sweet spot

I've won a mini-tournament with Ekaya and the Warpwolf Trinity

Legion's EThagrosh and Absylonia are two other nasty beast casters

Warjack side, theres Karchev, Mortenebra, Nemo, Kraye and Amon

It is a lot easier running all beasts that all jacks since beasts are self fueling.

running with the big guys is very very viable and very fun. You'll actually learn how to maximize your options running beast/jack heavy because youll usually have to make each jack/beast do as much as it can per turn. That means learning how to use tramples, throws and slams to best effect.

will it be competitive? It can be. But its an uphill battle. If you really want a competitive list, you can just add support units and solos thatll protect your stuff or help you with fury and focus

for example I'd bring the Ekaya Trinity up by adding a Gnarlhorn (4 beasts!) and a unit of shifting stones.

@vimes

i wasnt disagreeing with you i was reacting to the OPs comment that all-beast/jack isnt viable.

It's fine if it's not ALL big boys, I just don't like the idea of "Okay you have 1-2 Beasts/Jacks, a few units, a Solo or two and your Caster." If a build can be really beast heavy with some support, that's very palatable. I play large number armies in Warhammer so I wanted to try an elite force for a change of pace and just watch giant monsters bash skulls.

I've been reading and Hordes does seem the way to go for the reasons stated, which is fine. I'll probably try and find some info on Legion and Circle as I like their models the most, always liked dragon types and druid types.

Thanks for the help so far.

[quote=Bakerofish@vimes

i wasnt disagreeing with you i was reacting to the OPs comment that all-beast/jack isnt viable.

Who said WM couldn't go jack heavy?

Karchev, jacks , and mechanic is the form of most Karchev list

with Warmachine, Endgame has been writing some awesome battlereports on Darius

http://handcannononline.com/blog/2011/04/04/cygnar-masters-track-spotlight-darius-part-1/

you can check out the rest in his Mastertrack thread

Thanks for the continued help guys!

Bakerofish wrote:Legion's EThagrosh and Absylonia are two other nasty beast casters

Quite true. Abby especially loves "'beast only" lists. Her Tier lists allows for no infantry what-so-ever. The only unit you can bring is the pot, and the only solos you can bring are fury management (Shepherd and Forsaken). It runs very well, too, seeing as how before Turn 1 most of your army is 14 or more inches into the table. Heavies with advance move is just awesome, especially for a very fast army such as ours. Plus, if your opponent does not know how to deal with Abby's feat, you can really wreck face.

Next question, do you want to run lots of Heavies, lots of Lights, or a mix?

Protectorate is a great Warmachine faction for running lots of jacks, and the way they stack buffs, they can turn Light Warjacks into real killers. Protectorate also brings along plenty of jack support that can make your jacks unable to be targeted by magic attacks, or ranged attacks, or a straight buff to attack and damage rolls. They can also counter standard ways to negate the effectiveness of warjacks with other support.

Trolls are a great faction for turning any single model into an insane destroyer of whatever you want, as well as being able to stack buffs in a different way that the protectorate. Troll warbeasts tend to be just a bit more durable than your standard jack, and they have a great light that not only can kill Heavies when properly buffed, but can also kill lots of infantry.

I don't particularly like playing Circle or Legion beast heavy due to the more fragile nature of the beasts, but thats just me.

I've been looking more into Abby than anyone else, a Tryphon and Carn combo doesn't seem to be squishy. I like Khador but I don't know if a Karchev list has enough synergy and tricks to get by.

I'm liking Abby's Tier list, nothing on it sucks or is something I don't want to have, which is pretty nice. I guess to answer, a mix is fine. I made a few lists at 35pts that had 3 Heavies, 3 Lessers, or 2 Heavies, 3 Lessers and 1 Light.

Protectorate is pretty well represented in my area and I don't like them much at all, in fact I would quite like to stomp on them. :]

After reading both books I don't mind one system over the other, Hordes seems a bit more big boy friendly because you always have that option to push hard if you need it, and in Warmachine you don't. The ability to heal is also very nice and not lose combat ability until the damage really piles up and kills off a tree.

Still trying to read all the Faction Books or at least look at their Casters.

Khador in general have this thing called "unstopabble" trick, the enemy can see it from miles away, but they won't be able to stop it most of the time

Karchev list in general is ALOT of jacks and mechanic and not much in the way of anything else

His spell is made to carry warjack, make ranged attack do very little to them, He literally do nothing for infantry

Karchev is your man in Khador if you want to turn more than three jack in 35 point

I got in a game with some Khador tonight against Cygnar, just the demo starter boxes to get a feel for the game. If I hadn't Sorscha I probably would have won, I personally didn't feel she was very useful. However the two Jacks were awesome and it definitely reinforced my mindset.

I can see what you mean by unstoppable, I took a lot of hits at range and in combat but didn't lose a Jack and wrecked all 3 of my opponents. Very fun. :]

@Prince of Excess

Sorscha wasnt very useful in a battlebox game?

Methinks you should read her spell list again

I said I didn't find her useful, not she isn't useful. Fog wasn't good because I was DEF10, bumping it up a bit wasn't enough, I didn't have use for the 2" or PF on Boundless, no good opportunity for Razor Wind or Wind Rush. Both her high cost spells are awesome but I got into melee pretty fast and was more concerned with extra attacks, charges and boosting damage. Her Feat was awesome since it let me shred an Ironclad in one turn but I had no need to Knock something down or Freeze it after that.

I just lost because I'm new to the flow (long time Warhammer player) and she got popped by a Charger and finished off by Stryker later. Just bad plays by me, but I don't like her overall.

the only thing I can say here is that you need a few more games under your belt to get a feel of how things work

Sorscha is known as "beginners' easy button for a reason

examples:

Windrush: The extra movement allows you to get good angles for assassination runs but barring that dont forget that it adds +2 to sorscha's already high def. That charger is gonna have a harder time popping you at def 18. Stryker's going to have to pump focus into the focus hungry charger to make him useful...and then make him waste that focus by hiding behind your jacks

remember, you can move 0"

It would have just chipped away at a Jack in that case as I wasted two Focus to pump her DEF, I can see the spell is good it just wasn't this time. It would make more sense if all the details were laid out, basically I was just unsure of what to do early on and ended up having to blow Focus to finish off all the Jacks and keep her alive. Then Stryker finished her with a really nice Pistol roll after a Knock Down. If it had rolled less well, I'd have been fine but not really a big deal. I'm pretty sure done over again I would have been okay by just rushing and locking down the Ironclad with Sorscha. I was just illustrating I do not like her as a Caster for my preferred play style in table top games and I'm glad I figured that out.

Just a personal preference for things to be straight forward, I like to think more about what my opponent is doing/will be doing than having to also overthink my own force. I have a brutish playstyle. :]

Your jacks are armor 20, dont be afraid to offer one as a bait

you want Stryker to pump that much focus into trying to destroy your jacks because that means less focus to cast spells with

if he gives 3 to the charger that means hes going to have to choose between earthquake and arcane shield.

and better yet less focus to camp on. Sorscha has a pow 13 sickle that will ruin a frozen strker's day.

concedeing that shes not your type of girl, have you considered pButcher then?

hes a "push everything forward' type of guy

remember that WM/H is a game of angles

you have to look for them, create them or block them.

I did discover the angles part, like I said I am used to games with WAY bigger model counts. Butcher is very interesting, I will probably make a list for him and Karchev and see how I like both. I can appreciate that WM is about getting combos off, not trying to just have a standard "I run in, roll some dice, oh I win!" army, I just admire stream lining and try to KISS.

Sounds like you went all in, which really isn't always the best thing to do. Wind Rush does let you avoid free strikes, yes? Then get her out of their. Keep wind rushing on your turn to get into a better position and cast spells. To be honest though, I've always found Boundless charge to be immensely useful.

The Prince of Excess wrote:I just admire stream lining and try to KISS.

thumbs up to that. pButcher and Karchev would definitely be up your alley

just make sure you have contingencies for when your opponent tries something complicated and pulls it off. you will HATE the Haley. pButcher hates the Haley

No if Haley is a singular character, This wouldn't be a trouble

the problem is.... there is TWO haleys, you WILL HATE both
and In that quest would try to build your steam roller list as "Anti Haley"

That being said, Butcher,is IMO easier than Sorcha to be used

AXE TO FACE

And what would be described as Anti-Haley?