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Hello all,

I am posting this thread because I've seen too many people doing things wrong and complain about it. So you choose to play Eldar, and use your T3 4+ save models as Space Marines and expect 5 man dire avengers win combat against khorne berserkers with "my rolls as luckier than others!"?

For those new Eldar players, I have to say watch out for those kind of mistakes. Yes we are Elves, we are faster than mortals, but we are VERY weak. Unless you specially design your army to be so aggresive that you think you can kill a whole unit at once, don't even try! Eldar are too unforgiving, you either destroy, or die. Most of us now focus on mechdar, whci his what I am talking about today as I play mechdar myself. I don't know footdar very well, but for mechdar, DON'T GET OUT OF YOUR TRANSPORT UNLESS YOU ARE FORCED TO! I'm sure a lot of you've seen players drop their troops out on turn 2, and personally I've seen this many times too. Why take transport if you are going to do that?Keep your troops in at all times until maybe last turn you jump out to bladestorm and take objectives.

Another thing is the playstyle. Personally I don't care about killing. All I need is to win the game, all I need to do is to take the objectives, or get ONE MORE kill point. So just fly around the speartip and avoid the bulk of your enemy. I love doing this against horde orks, because I usually play on 4x6 tables, I divide my force into 2, my heavies, and my storm guardians+fire dragons. Because the night spinner and my 3 walkers deal out so many shots people panic, so my 300ish pt group of models will be attracting 700pt worth of orks in most cases. But in some cases people get smart, they go for the troops. This is when spinner comes in, and slow down the advance towards my troops. Kill points is not very hard neither, even against hordes. Because there's always those small units in the army, PICK THOSE OUT! They die fast, because you are Eldar, you have the range.

Just my opinion on how Eldar works, comments and criticism welcomed.

I play mechdar , but around around turn 5-6 I hit a few enemy units hard.

I've always found playing fast and loose with my Eldar has gotten me farther then assuming everything has a fixed role.

Lets take War Walkers for instance. I usually field a pair of 2x shuri cannon war walkers and toss em into reserve. I find myself assaulting quite a bit with them. Sure they are better at shooting, with 6 s6 shots a piece, but on the other hand if I can tie up a heavy weapon squad with 80 points of war walkers for a while, that in many ways may be better than shooting.

Even Dire Avengers don't always want to be shooting. If its turn 5,6, or 7. And there are 2-5 MEQs on an objective and you have the choice to doom blade storm or doom assault them. You should probably assault them. Its a riskier move, but the assault will mean you are at least contesting, and if you can force the marines to retreat or kill them all you now hold the objective. Compare this with nobody having the objectives because your DA are too far away to claim it.

You also need to keep in mind targets of opportunity and not be afraid to sacrifice something to get rid of scary anti tank. As a general rule, you may be safer inside of your wave serpent, but if you have a chance to nuke those Loota Boys with your Storm Guardians on turn 2, you better go for it- even if it means ultimately losing the Stormies.

I know Elves are fragile, but you shouldn't be afraid to engage in a fire fight either. If you have an opportunity to alpha strike a flank- especially if you can hit and disable a large chunk of their heavy support, you'll often be able to win the ensuing fire fight against the remaining units on the flank while the rest of his forces scramble to get in range.

I think Eldar units are more flexible than people give them credit for. We aren't nearly as one dimensional as Tau for instance!

DON'T GET OUT OF YOUR TRANSPORT UNLESS YOU ARE FORCED TO!

That right there I simply cannot agree with. Part is because that's not how I play. It doesn't interest me, and therefore I'm not good at that style. However I do have a bit of reason behind it. By hiding your units in transports and never getting out, you are in essence playing with far fewer points than your opponent. In addition, being able to hide and survive is really only helpful on objective missions because it is difficult to kill enough for kill points, and you need to hope your critical units survive long enough for objective missions. I like it far more when your army is working to actually defeat the enemy, rather than just hide until the game ends. This is also why I like a more hybrid/foot style, because I get more threats for the enemy to deal with. I'm overall less survivable, but I have more killing power and can press more areas at once.

Why take transport if you are going to do that?

Clearing out priority targets, though I agree that turn 2 is generally too quick unless you went second. If you are in a strong position though, disembarking to engage the opponent can be a good decision. You do have to know exactly when this is worth while, but just sitting in vehicles letting your opponent gain board control isn't that strong.

Keep your troops in at all times until maybe last turn you jump out to bladestorm and take objectives.

This is such a vast generalization that it's terrible. First, you assume the player takes avengers (I usually do, but usually as 10 men without an exarch and only a single squad. I don't feel bladestorm is consistently useful enough for its near 30 extra points in cost, and I don't like how narrow of a role avengers fill without being particularly effective. They are general infantry killers, but I don't need that usually). In addition, you are relying on your vehicles to stay alive, but without board control and strong offensive firepower you can't hope to accomplish that. Any heavy weapons your enemy has will be relatively unchecked and you need to deal with them in some way (hide behind LOS blocking terrain, kill them with ranged firepower/clever assaults).

so my 300ish pt group of models will be attracting 700pt worth of orks in most cases.

Honestly, that isn't significant. It is always preached how if it takes more points from the enemy to kill your stuff, it was worth it. But that's almost every case: it costs more to kill a certain point cost of enemies. Take terminators for example. To kill 200 points worth of terminators, you need far more than 200 points worth of firepower (assuming only 1-2 turns of attacking). As you state about splitting your army: Lootas should target the spinner, or walkers if the spinner is out of sight, while the mob closes on your troops. You cannot escape because they have too much board control, and you really don't have the killing power (assuming the orks are killing some of your models) to stop them.

Because there's always those small units in the army, PICK THOSE OUT!

I disagree. Pick out the enemies that are the most threatening. This doesn't mean the ones that could do the most damage, but those that are the most problematic. Stop the heavy weapons from killing your transports, then whittle down boyz squads to manageable numbers. If you are using ranged firepower, you don't need to kill full units at a time. The fewer enemies you have to deal with when they are close the better. This is why support firepower is necessary (and the spinner is brilliant at this).


I think that Eldar are too varied to have a standard opinion on. In fact much of 40k is too varied for there to be a real best (that doesn't mean there's no bad). In any case, a lot of the army you play has to be based on your play style: How do you want to play? Assaulty? Shooty? Aggressive or defensive? Long range or mid range? Fast moving or slow? Resilient or fragile (with accompanying benefits/weaknesses)? These are all questions that don't really nail down what play style you're looking for, but give you an idea. Really, I think the best way to go about it is imagine your army in a movie. Think of an action sequence of your soldiers fighting the enemy. Generally the stuff you like best sticks the longest, and go with that. This is subject to change though, but you need to be focused with how your army works. Everything needs a job (that doesn't mean "tank hunting, anti-heavy infantry and so on, but there has to be a reason you are including a unit).

I've always found playing fast and loose with my Eldar has gotten me farther then assuming everything has a fixed role.

Actually this is why I like hawks. They are very adaptable. They don't have a lot of power or survivability, but they are decent in a lot of roles, and so are good at filling in where they are needed.

I agree with your point akaean, sometimes we just have to go for it. But sometimes it's all about the control, like the example you made about storm guardians vs lootas. Yes those lootas would screw up a lot my tanks, losing one of my storm guardian unit for that unit sounds like a good trade. But I do have other things to take out that; since I am a very defensive player even with mechdar, I tend to keep everything back, so no chance of 2nd turn nuking anyways. If I went for it, the tank will die from assualts from other units, the stormies will die, and now my force lost a valuable objective capturer...not worth it.
Like I said, the stuff inside come out at the end of the game, not the start or the middle.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I can see that we play at a very different style Ail-shan, since I can spend 3 turns not shooting, not assualting, and feel good about it, then piss people off last turn and savour the look on their faces.
What Im afraid of are lootas and hydra(or any other s7-8 with a lot of shots), thats why I have an autarch in my army, I always come in safe.

Well sure transports are good, but why would you keep your units in them at all times. I agree when Ali-Shan says its essentially playing at less points that your opponent.

I sometimes field a ten man banshee squad, and I always end up getting them out of the transport so that they can do their job and rip some MEQ to shreds in assault. Granted I sometimes pick them back up.

I'm not saying playing as everything has a fixed role is good or bad, but from the advice given here, its as if mech was the only possible option as an Eldar army. Perhaps it is better against the spam we get today in tournaments, but I only have 1 serpent, 1 falcon and 1 fire prism, and I'm doing fine.

I also agree with Akaen's point of view. Eldar units have a role they are best at, but that doesn't mean they can't be used for anything else. The example of war walkers assaulting for example. I did this in an Apoc game and blew up a couple leman russes in combat.

thats why I have an autarch in my army, I always come in safe.

That's not good enough though. Maybe if we had psychic communion. Either you are in on turn 2 or you are coming in in pieces. The former sort of works, but you only negated 1 (maybe 2) turns of enemy shooting. Plus because of random game length and the potential for your opponent to go second, last turn contesting is not that good. This is especially true because if you flat out with your vehicle with troops in it to tank shock enemies off of an objective and they do a successful DoG, not only does your tank die but so do your troops inside. AND if the game goes on for another turn you're in danger of losing your contesters AGAIN. And if you are not moving flat out you have been exposed to enemy anti-tank praying to survive for at least one turn. Honestly I feel your playstyle is closer to the "my rolls as luckier than others!" than anything else, simply because you spend the entire game basically hoping to not be killed so that you can contest objectives last turn, and then that the game ends. That's not a fight, that's not even a last stand. That's close to not playing at all, and generally is just frustrating to your opponent because nothing is really happening.

Your way of playing may seem reliable, but it just isn't. Any army with a decent amount of cappers with anti tank weapons should easily give you a hard time, especially if supported by ranged anti tank (generally supressive variety: autocannons, assault cannons, scatter lasers and other high RoF mid S long range guns, especially massed missiles. If you look at it, you're playing a version of a chimera wall with faster transports. But to be faster, you trade off firepower and have about half the tanks that guard would.

its as if mech was the only possible option as an Eldar army.

I agree that that is the sense displayed by the internet. I do not agree with it. It may be good, but I can't see how, nor would I have any fun playing with or against it. There's virtually no combat, and the entire game is the mech Eldar player trying to not be in combat ever. I feel like the Eldar player is trying to gain the moral high ground of a jedi (I will not fight you).

I'm somewhat on the fence on a lot of these issues. Its all well and good to play tricksey dodge to contest/snipe at the end at a tournament with davu, and I won't deny that that is one of eldar's strongest builds / styles and is how I would go in a tourney setting

But in a flgs pick up game where I'm already taking banshees, spiders, bladestormers and/or other semi competitive units, and I don't want to be tfwaacg... I like to actually engage with the enemy- albiet on my terms- unless the enemy is dark eldar I paid ~$300 for my infantry I'll be damned if they aren't getting out of their transports and shooting the enemy!

and I won't deny that that is one of eldar's strongest builds / styles and is how I would go in a tourney setting

I will. I'll be told I'm wrong over and over, but I'll get over it. As far as I've ever seen for tournament results (for higher level tournaments) I never see Eldar do that well. Maybe top 10 or something, but never very well. However as far as I can tell there should be at least 1 Eldar player with the standard mech eldar build. So why don't they do well if that's the best Eldar can offer? Yea, bad/old book and all that, but then it shouldn't be considered strongish (which it seems to be).

People claim that they don't play non mechdar in tournaments because they wont do well, but I don't trust that. As far as I'm aware, they never took a different style list to a tournament, only to practice games, and those give a completely different environment. Obviously, the majority of Eldar lists brought to a tournament that aren't mechdar should fail miserably because that's what people go in expecting. It's like a self fulfilling prophecy. And part of that is you don't know what you're doing, because you're too ingrained into the mechdar style.

But that's a rather large speculated idea. Nut I do feel that Mechdar has become a form of dogma. It does well at tournaments because it's mechdar.

As a final less related point, why does a tournament game have to not be fun?

I agree completely with Ali-shan. This is really just a game, and I for one enjoy not taking mechdar, nor the standard footdar either, and still managing to win most of my games.

On the other hand, mechdar definately has potential and wins more often than other eldar lists, but that's because everyone follows the generic advice given on forums such as Dakka. And if everyone knows what tactics the eldar players are using, then they're bound to loose because the enemy will adapt.

I for one don't like the tricksey dodging around the enemy. For a turn or two to weaken the enemy maybe, but not for the entire game. And as Akaean said, if you pay so much for infantry, you'll want them on the table!

A lot of people I know use their infantry more than their transports, they take the transports as an upgrade for faster movement. That's what Eldar means to them, specialists with a sweet ride. But I am really focusing on jumping out of the small box of "I wanna go out there and slaughter my enemy", because that's ork tactics.
I am not playing against my enemy with less points, and even if I am...so what? It's not like I can't take on them with the tanks, and whenever they blow up my tank the guys inside would do cool things like burning a mob or killing a tank, or simply attract a lot of shots so my enemy at least get distracted.
I am not suggesting everyone becomes a coward like me who hides in his car all day long, but I just want to say that don't dump your guys out too fast, not until they are needed at that spot.

But I am really focusing on jumping out of the small box of "I wanna go out there and slaughter my enemy", because that's ork tactics.

And I think you jumped a little too far into the "I don't want to fight" box.

Also generally if your tank is killed, assuming you're skirting the edge of the map to stay out of combat range, your units wont be in range to do cool things like burning a mob or killing a tank, and no anti-tank fire should be devoted to them because they don't need much fire to kill anyway.

I do agree don't jump out too quick, but also don't be afraid to engage. It's a wargame, and you will take casualties. Just try to make the enemy take more.

Hmm, well I think what Wings of Light meant was that he would drive his transports in the enemy's midst and not skirt around the edge of the table.

Personally, I jump out when I see a unit which will pose a problem to me unless I kill it. Recently, this has made me jump out my fire dragons in front of a Blood Slaughterer of Khorne. It was a gamble and 4 of them died, but the slaughterer blew up and saved my guardians keeping the objective from a very messy death.

I think eldar is all about striking the enemy with the right units at the right moment. Tanks are there to help, but everyone has tanks. The Eldar's true strength is their ability to take aspect warriors who all excel at certain roles. Granted some aspects my be downright useless, but others are some of the best units out there. 5 melta gun armed men, 90 points, it doesn't get much better.

5 melta gun armed men, 90 points, it doesn't get much better.

It does when they're actually only 80 points.

I find that driving into the center of the enemy with vehicles is rather counter productive. You want to stay alive, so you're driving straight down your enemy's throat? You should be taking advantage of your vehicles' range. This is less of a tactical issue and more of a points efficiency issue. It would be like using dark reapers at close range. You're wasting a lot of their ability.

Personally, I have an issue with fielding a lot of vehicles for the same reason some people have issues with fielding farseers and the like: they just aren't that reliable, and if one is shut down at the right time it really ruins your plans. Obviously some vehicles are necessary, because foot dragons are not exactly effective. However using multiple transports I feel leaves too much of the game up to your opponent's target priority. Basically, every unit is the same, with only slight differences in what they are effective at killing (does your serpent have dragons or avengers). If your opponent is a mech army, they can pretty safely exclude the avengers as they target the dragons. If your enemy is a foot army they can do the opposite (unless you have the flamer exarch, but I don't like that build).

Ail-Shan wrote:

I find that driving into the center of the enemy with vehicles is rather counter productive. You want to stay alive, so you're driving straight down your enemy's throat? You should be taking advantage of your vehicles' range. This is less of a tactical issue and more of a points efficiency issue. It would be like using dark reapers at close range. You're wasting a lot of their ability.

Often, the enemy targets are moving closer to you. Or, if it's something expensive like a deathstar landraider, the enemy is avoiding the area where the transport full of dragons is lurking, thus letting you control/interdict his movement. I very seldom fly a transport *to* the enemy unless it's to take out that isolated hydra or whatever in the backfield. Mostly my fire dragons do what they're doing on my side of the table.

But I agree that some 48"+ shots of str8+ is important to have in an Eldar army. Sometimes it's just not possible to get the transport close enough to kill the vendetta or whatever with dragons reliably.

Ail-Shan wrote:
Personally, I have an issue with fielding a lot of vehicles for the same reason some people have issues with fielding farseers and the like: they just aren't that reliable, and if one is shut down at the right time it really ruins your plans. Obviously some vehicles are necessary, because foot dragons are not exactly effective. However using multiple transports I feel leaves too much of the game up to your opponent's target priority. Basically, every unit is the same, with only slight differences in what they are effective at killing (does your serpent have dragons or avengers). If your opponent is a mech army, they can pretty safely exclude the avengers as they target the dragons. If your enemy is a foot army they can do the opposite (unless you have the flamer exarch, but I don't like that build).

Aha, but fielding a lot of vehicles is the key that makes the difference. If one of your vehicles is shut down at the wrong time, you have two more that can step up and do the same job in its place.

An opponent can never safely exclude Avengers because, even though they have no significant offensive capability, they're still scoring units (except in those few games where scoring doesn't matter). So--like in an army like mine where I have 3 units each of FDs and DAs in serpents--the opponent has two bad tactical options: target the dangerous things and allow the scoring units to survive and score, or target the scoring units and allow the dangerous things to survive and kill you.

And, again, because you have redundancy with multiple units of fire dragons, at least one of them will get through and do the job.

Aha, but fielding a lot of vehicles is the key that makes the difference.

But that inherently is a problem. You are trying to play a guard chimera wall that is far less efficient. While you do have the side of mobility, guard make up for it with straight up firepower and more numbers. Chimera walls are actually my most feared opponent even though I've virtually never played against them, simply because I have issues dealing with 12+ heavy firepower transports. 6-8 Eldar skimmers I feel I can usually deal with.

An opponent can never safely exclude Avengers because

That's partially true. However if your opponent removes the dragons from the equation in the first 3 turns, he can spend the other 2-4 turns supressing the avengers (any result is useful, but a 4+ on a pen means the unit is now relatively inconsequential unless they are on an objective, which if they are you aren't really taking advantage of the speed element that sets you apart from the chimera wall).

Also while one squad of firedragons should get through to get the job done, if you've killed one of 10 vehicles, you're still not in good shape. Honestly I think firedragons are a poor unit to spam simply because they're only good for 1 tank kill (averaging killing nothing for whatever reason and you managing to make them survive to kill a second or third). I'd much rather have a unit of 5 wraithguard with spear warlock and a dragon squad than two dragon squads, simply because the wraithguard are halfway reliable but can survive small arm fire, so are good for more than one enemy.

There are alot bad advices being posted here. Op is pretty dead on about playing eldar in a competitive environment. Mechdar is the way to go as a all comer list. even so they are having difficulty swimming in a meta full of cookie cutting sw, ba,and ig. Not saying mechdar can't compete with tier 1 lists but it requires a lot of skills and is very unforgiving when you make mistakes.

Thank you SonsofVulkan

DON'T GET OUT OF YOUR TRANSPORT UNLESS YOU ARE FORCED TO!



That right there I simply cannot agree with. Part is because that's not how I play. It doesn't interest me, and therefore I'm not good at that style. However I do have a bit of reason behind it. By hiding your units in transports and never getting out, you are in essence playing with far fewer points than your opponent. In addition, being able to hide and survive is really only helpful on objective missions because it is difficult to kill enough for kill points, and you need to hope your critical units survive long enough for objective missions. I like it far more when your army is working to actually defeat the enemy, rather than just hide until the game ends. This is also why I like a more hybrid/foot style, because I get more threats for the enemy to deal with. I'm overall less survivable, but I have more killing power and can press more areas at once.

Taking opportunities is key. Fire Dragons should pop a Landraider as soon as it eventually becomes a threat.
Bladestorming DA can decimate a doomed infantry unit quickly.
Storm Guardians with flamers have a field day vs. a doomed unit with low-toughness or weak armor.
Play mech Eldar utilizing their strengths: ramming, tank shocking, and contesting objectives - no other army in the game can do it better.
Another point is reserves. Use an Autarch so that 66% of the army appears in turn 2, deny one flank and focus on one part of the enemy; the Eldar skimmers have range to implement this scenario.

Ail-Shan wrote:

Aha, but fielding a lot of vehicles is the key that makes the difference.

But that inherently is a problem. You are trying to play a guard chimera wall that is far less efficient. While you do have the side of mobility, guard make up for it with straight up firepower and more numbers. Chimera walls are actually my most feared opponent even though I've virtually never played against them, simply because I have issues dealing with 12+ heavy firepower transports. 6-8 Eldar skimmers I feel I can usually deal with.

An opponent can never safely exclude Avengers because

That's partially true. However if your opponent removes the dragons from the equation in the first 3 turns, he can spend the other 2-4 turns supressing the avengers (any result is useful, but a 4+ on a pen means the unit is now relatively inconsequential unless they are on an objective, which if they are you aren't really taking advantage of the speed element that sets you apart from the chimera wall).

Also while one squad of firedragons should get through to get the job done, if you've killed one of 10 vehicles, you're still not in good shape. Honestly I think firedragons are a poor unit to spam simply because they're only good for 1 tank kill (averaging killing nothing for whatever reason and you managing to make them survive to kill a second or third). I'd much rather have a unit of 5 wraithguard with spear warlock and a dragon squad than two dragon squads, simply because the wraithguard are halfway reliable but can survive small arm fire, so are good for more than one enemy.

Skim some battle reports, like these 5, then we'll talk:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/340795.page

Nobody can hardly even kill three wave serpents at all during the course of a game, much less still have turns left over for killing three more. Using fish of fury tactics, fire dragons can survive to shoot again and again.

Ail-Shan wrote:

5 melta gun armed men, 90 points, it doesn't get much better.

It does when they're actually only 80 points.

aah, mental maths!

I agree with Wuestenfux's idea on using transports and tanks. If you see a good opportunity for your troops to disembark and bring the pain, then why not do it?

And yes, wave serpents are practically the best Eldar unit, so why not spam them in tournaments? But they are still transports, and there is no point keeping the units you bought them for inside all game just to deny an opponent a kill point.

Lord Rogukiel wrote:But they are still transports, and there is no point keeping the units you bought them for inside all game just to deny an opponent a kill point.

But that is the point of keeping the units inside all game, especially scoring units in non-KP missions. With Eldar in particular, the passenger + transport diad fights like a single unit. It has the mobility, durability and firepower of the transport, plus the scoring ability and short-range special weapon striking ability--if applicable--of the passengers.

It's the basic operating principle of all mechanized armies.

Mechdar isn't the only way to play though, 10 Wraithguard backed up by Eldrad and a Phoenix Lord or Avatar is pretty stout.

Using fish of fury tactics,

Can you explain that?

Ail-Shan wrote:

Using fish of fury tactics,

Can you explain that?

It's easier with a picture, but I haven't got one, so picture this:

1. Drive a couple of wave serpents with FDs in them up to your target--say a rhino or land raider--and turn them partly sideways , back-to-back, with a gap of 1" or less between them.

2. Disembark the fire dragons on the near side of the serpents, so that the serpents are sideways between the FDs and the target rhino.

3. Shoot the rhino (drawing a line of sight under the wave serpents) as usual.

When the rhino is wrecked, the wave serpents are between the disembarked passengers and the fire dragons. Because of the rule that you can't approach a model within 1" during the movement phase, they have to go around the wave serpents to assault the fire dragons (they can't fit through the gap between). They can shoot the FDs, but the dragons should get cover from the serpents. They can assault the serpents, but as long as they moved more than 7" there's a good chance of surviving. The only way the disembarked enemy can get at the dragons is if they manage to down the serpents during the shooting phase. So there's a decent chance that at least some of the dragons will be able to re-embark, or shoot again the following turn.

The name comes from a 4th edition Tau tactic where you could have fire warriors shoot under their devilfish transports at a target on the far side. It also works okay with rhinos and a couple other transports, but skimmers are best.

Flavius Infernus wrote:

Lord Rogukiel wrote:But they are still transports, and there is no point keeping the units you bought them for inside all game just to deny an opponent a kill point.

But that is the point of keeping the units inside all game, especially scoring units in non-KP missions. With Eldar in particular, the passenger + transport diad fights like a single unit. It has the mobility, durability and firepower of the transport, plus the scoring ability and short-range special weapon striking ability--if applicable--of the passengers.

It's the basic operating principle of all mechanized armies.

Well when you have transports such as Wave Serpents, ingore melta and ordnance weapons, why would you bother buying a squad at all, if not because you need one to get the wave serpent. Wouldn't the serpents just allow for extra protection until the opportune moment?

Lord Rogukiel wrote:
Well when you have transports such as Wave Serpents, ingore melta and ordnance weapons, why would you bother buying a squad at all, if not because you need one to get the wave serpent. Wouldn't the serpents just allow for extra protection until the opportune moment?

Yes, the cheapest way to get a wave serpent is to buy a squad of 5 DAs @ 60 points, so I buy 3-4 of those. If I could buy serpents without having to pay for DAs, I would. In a way I kind of do, since I typically put some DA units into falcons, but I buy the dedicated wave serpents for those units anyway and deploy the serpents as shooting vehicles without passengers.

A wave serpent--like for example one with an optimized loadout like scatterlaser turret and shuriken cannon underslung--is a fighting vehicle. It's not just protection for the squad; it's a firepower unit. Once you get 4+ of these moving around the tabletop, you've got significant amounts of firepower on a mobile, durable platform. The firepower of the squad inside is insignificant by comparison--with the one exception of fire dragons who you need for anti-heavy-armor and for instakills on FNP models. But when you've got 60 or 70+ vehicle-based str6 shots per turn at a *minimum* effective range of 30", a bunch of expensive and fragile DAs trying to jockey into position for a dinky bladestorm is really completely unnecessary.

Ali Shan are you new to WH40k or a old player with little experience with competitive gaming? Never played against IG before? LOL have hard time beating AV12? You know that chimeras have side av of 10, and eldars are so mobile, they can easily get side av shots.

Fire dragons are the best elite unit in the eldar codex and yes they are usually suicide units but a 5 men squad worth 80 pts taking out a 200+ pt Landraider or a MC is definetly a good tradeoff. And if your skilled enough to apply the fish of fury tactic, some of those FD might survive to fight again. And you dont use FDs on rhinos and chimeras, thats what wave serpents with EMLs and BL are for. Wraithguards cost 35 pts each and with a shooting range of only 12", a squad of 5 will cost 175 pts. They may look good on paper, but they are not reliable enough to worth their cost. 3+ armour save and only 1 wound each, they will easily get tear apart by lascannons, missle launchers, plasma weapons. And one good drop by a LR battle cannon can wipe a whole squad out.

I think I read swooping hawks and striking scorp in your posts too.... You must be joking right? I really dont want new players to waste their money on crappy units and get owned even on a friendly/casual games. There is a reason why over 50% of new players usually quit the game after a year.

The wave serpent is one of the best dedicated transport in the game(between BA razorbacks). Force shield, fast skimmer, and can be outfitted with weaponrys to look more like a tank.

People need to understand that in 5th edition, armies are alot more mobile and survivable due to transports. BA armies can be in your face on turn 2 and when that happens you will wish your DAs are in serpents... The only time DAs should ever get out of their transports are to either to shoot and assault weaker units(guardsman, firewarriors and etc) or their transport is wrecked and that need to reach a objective. 10 DA squad with bladestorm exarch is good against hordes but too bad the current competative meta(IG, ba, SW) are mostly mechanized. To me its best to get small 5 men DA squads in waveserpent(to score objectives in vehicles). A hybrid eldar army is ok but the chance of you having enough fire power to stop both transports and tanks(AV13-14) and MCs is low.

The key is to always stay mobile, use FD to kill high priority units, stop enemy transports and get them to footslog and you will be good to go. And its easier said than done, eldar is still VERY hard to play even if you bring a optimal list.

The power of the eldar is flexibility. A wave serpent with TL SC and 5 DA or 10 DA in it offers a lot of answers to a lot of problems. The statement that the meta game is mech right now is true. So the emphasis is going to be on S6+ weapons so the DA are less important. However the flexibility to bring out 10 DA perhaps with a bladestorm and a doom on a target unit can - if well timed - be a difference maker. My problem with the 5-man DA is there are very limited times when a 5-man can make a difference whereas a 10 man can. The issue is giving up the mech S6 firepower. If you say do 4 x 5-man in Wave Serpents. You are going to be getting by with probably 3 x 10-man DA. You have to judge whether you need the flexibility in vehicles or troops. My personal is lose the one vehicle for the more resilient 10-man units of DA.

Striking Scorpions are not too bad but they are very focused on HTH and rather pricey if you mech them up. When a DA unit can do the same duty and be a scoring unit, sorry leave the SS at home.

The problem with the eldar is not that they are not competitive, it is that a competitive eldar is a boring army to play and face. 3 WS with 5 FD? Check 4 WS with 5 DA? Check. Do you believe in WW or FP? Take 9 or 3 of them respectively. Yawn. 30 pages of fluff an options and you could almost reduce an eldar codex to 1 8x11 sheet double-sided.

Ali Shan are you new to WH40k or a old player with little experience with competitive gaming? Never played against IG before?

Competitive is such a loosely defined and flung around term that it is virtually meaningless, especially since its concept is entirely theoretical.

Anyway, been playing Eldar for 2ish years, so put that in your timeline where you like. Also, I have played against IG. I haven't played against a true chimera wall (12+ AV12 chassis) was what I was saying. I've played against 6 chimeras with vets, 3 griffons and 2 russes as an enemy and didn't have much trouble with that. However that's because my list was unbalanced towards killing mech more than it should have been.

As for Eldar being mobile, that's assuming you aren't shaken/stunned, weapon destroyed, immobilized or destroyed, so basically as long as you aren't damaged. Considering the list that Flavius was running 5 serpents, 3 vypers and 3 walkers, that's not a lot of damage results to cause. All that needs to be done is to cause a single damage result, and you can pretty safely move on. For guard, that's on average 4 chimeras per serpent, which is not counting any heavy weapons inside or the like. Obviously with heavy bolters the chimeras are better against the vypers and walkers. My point is still that supressing that mass S6 isn't as difficult as people seem to be making out. To kill it, sure it takes a long time, but you only need to silence each gun one at a time and you're given free reign of the field (until the dragons sacrifice themselves).

And you dont use FDs on rhinos and chimeras, thats what wave serpents with EMLs and BL are for. Wraithguards cost 35 pts each and with a shooting range of only 12", a squad of 5 will cost 175 pts. They may look good on paper, but they are not reliable enough to worth their cost. 3+ armour save and only 1 wound each, they will easily get tear apart by lascannons, missle launchers, plasma weapons.

You're holding a double standard. Dragons aren't for use against light transports, but what if that's all your facing? Your dragons are still valuable, but they don't have any good targets. Dragons are just under half the cost of wraithguard, with the same range. Wraithguard have better shooting ability from further out (potential ID on MCs or TWC, full vehicle damage potential compared to exorcist missile stats for the dragon), along with better combat survivability (better than tissue paper isn't saying much though) and better shooting survivability. You point out that wraithguard are easy prey for las cannons, but that's not entirely true, especially if they have cover (say, from serpent of fury tactics), and because las cannons need to cause at least 5 wound to kill the squad assuming a 5 man squad.

I think I read swooping hawks and striking scorp in your posts too.... You must be joking right?

Like I said, double standard. You suggested brightlances against AV12-, you must be joking right? My suggestions at least make logical sense, making use of the units' stats.

Also for your later comment about players getting owned in friendly games....that doesn't make sense. Your issue is that my advice isn't the most competitive (sure). But why should players be losing in CASUAL games for not having the most powerful tournament list? What is your definition of casual? You are suggesting that if players do not have the most powerful units in their codex, they will lose ever game they play, which is simply untrue.

BA armies can be in your face on turn 2

Of course they don't need transports for this, so your preceding statement is a bit irrelevant to this. Armies are more mobile, whether or not this is related to transports, and you either need a way to contain that mobility (long range firepower with good fire lanes and suppressive fire) or having better mobility yourself.

10 DA squad with bladestorm exarch is good against hordes but too bad the current competative meta(IG, ba, SW) are mostly mechanized.

This is also false, for one simple reason. Let's assume everyone thinks the same (hordes, specifically horde orks, are not competitive in the slightest). If everyone plans with that in mind (taking minimal anti infantry), hordes should be the most powerful because they are not prepared for at all. This also illustrates my point of "competitive" being a purely conceptual term having no real world application. I recall an argument on 3++ by Kirby (not a fan of that guy) where an ork player, who supported his list with multiple high placements in tournaments, was constantly berated for trying to defend himself as competitive. The counters provided were faulty ("I'll shoot your whole support section off turn 1" was countered by pointing out that he literally did not have enough shots to do so, even in 2 turns, without cover for the orks for example), but in the end the point was driven that tournament results were not an accurate measure of "competitiveness." But there's a problem: If your list is designed to be competitive (as powerful as possible, and able to beat any other list out there), should you be able to at least place well at tournaments? If your idea of competitive is above the tournament level, than what is the point? You can say all you want that your list is more competitive than the other persons, but the fact still stands that he just beat your face in.

I really dont want new players to waste their money on crappy units and get owned even on a friendly/casual games. There is a reason why over 50% of new players usually quit the game after a year.

I cannot stress how big of an issue I have with this line of thinking. You are automatically assuming that any new player wants to be able to win the highest level tournaments, which is absolutely false. There are plenty of people in the game for the fun of the hobby and the community. In addition, buying what are considered the best units can also lead a person to quit. For example, if I was forced to only buy serpents, dragons and avengers, I'd quit the hobby within a year because the game would be dull beyond belief. I cannot stand to field a mechdar army (or any fully mech army) simply because it will be some of the most dull hours of my life.

In relation to that, I hold that you cannot waste money on this hobby. Are certain units more effective than others? Probably. But buying less effective units is in no way wasting your money. As one reason, as editions change, certain units become more and less effective. As it is, you seem to be claiming that people who bought swooping hawks last edition, when they were quite good, have wasted their money because in this edition they are less efficient. But the main point is that this is a hobby. It's not a game you play solely to win at the expense of all else (and being so will make you quit the hobby pretty quick either from lack of opponents or lack of success).

In addition, different units fit different play styles, and this is a rather important part of the army I feel. If you don't like how your army plays, you probably wont do too well with it, simply from lack of interest. But if you play an army that you enjoy because you built it up yourself and know how it works together, you will be much better off. You probably wont win regional tournaments, but that's not the main point.

Now, yes, some people play the game specifically for the purpose of winning tournaments, and that's fine. However, you don't do so at the expense of all else. I'll use Dash as an example (all this is speculation, I haven't done research). Dash apparently does rather well in his games. However, I doubt he simply copied some list off the net. He probably went through the units, at least trying most of them multiple times, even if only the ones he felt suited to his play style (kill stuff dead). If you go to a tournament not planning on enjoying yourself, and only hoping to win, I can't imagine you're that good of a guy to play against.