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Dear Forum Posters,

I would like to hear your opinions on the following:

First up, we have Codex Space Marines. Our basic troop choice is 90 points, it contains a sergeant, 4 marines armed with bolt pistols, bolters, frag & krak grenades.

Next up, we have Codex Grey Knights. Our basic troop choice is 100 points, it contains a justicar (sergeant) and 4 Grey Knights armed with: Storm Bolters, Nemesis Force Swords, Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades, Psyk-out grenades... not one but two psychic powers and the ability to deep strike in their point cost of 100.

Can anyone explain the logic behind this, aside from Codex Creep? For 10 points extra, that is a lot of extras. TO be nice, we'll say the Bolter/Bolt Pistol is cancelled out by the Storm Bolter (Even though it is superior with the ability to fire 2 shots within 24" and still assault, unlike the Bolter.)

So for 10 points extra:

5 Force Weapons (not just power weapons, but Nemesis Force weapons).
Psyk-out Grenades.
2 Psychic Powers
Deep Strike
Preferred Enemy
The Aegis

Also worth pointing out, at 5 models they can take a heavy weapon and for 5 points, the force halberd.


So, here's the challenge:

Can anyone try to provide some logical justification? This looks like to me, about 50-100 points extra of wargear for 10 points. Does any army have a basic troop choice that good??? The average Grey Knight costs 4pts more then a Tactical marine and is given a force weapon to along with everything else.

Yes, PAGK, objectively are a lot better value than tac marines. But look at everything else in the codex. The prices are hiked massively. Like Librarians. GK libbys are a full 50 points more than vanilla.

Cerebrium wrote:Yes, PAGK, objectively are a lot better value than tac marines. But look at everything else in the codex. The prices are hiked massively. Like Librarians. GK libbys are a full 50 points more than vanilla.

Of course that's over looking the fact that they come with terminator armor AND the 50 point upgrade to a level 2 psyker....that was a bad example on your part since it's actually 20 points CHEAPER then a vanilla librarian with similar rules.

As for explanation? Tacticals suck compared to everything. It's called a "Tactical Tax" for a reason.

It's just driving me nuts to look at the difference. The majority of local tournaments run at 1000 points and while I've had a great winning streak, I had a crapload of trouble against an army roughly my equal in composition but horribly unequal in terms of wargear.

I run 4 troops space marines with Sicarius and pods (3 tac squads, 1 scout squad) and I almost win every match due to the versatility allowed by really if I want, being able to have a total of 8 scoring units which is key in so many of the missions that come up (and they are randomly chosen each round).

I came up against a GK player who ran a similar setup but instead, he had 30+ guys running around with storm bolters, force weapons etc.. Lucky for me we had an ahnilihation mission and I setup a drop pod firebase and ate him up piecemeal as he came in from reserves. The only nasty part, was him charging me with a unit of 6 GK that survived bolter-storm & hitting me at initiative 6 with power weapons after firing off 12 shots. It got him his one and only KP, one of my tactical squads.

I noticed that some of the other units in the dex are priced higher, but when you consider the extra that are included, this becomes apparent why. Even the Terminatorss cost the same as troop choice....

Anyone out there play GKs much? How competitive are they? I'm considering them for my next army.


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Carnage43 wrote:

Cerebrium wrote:Yes, PAGK, objectively are a lot better value than tac marines. But look at everything else in the codex. The prices are hiked massively. Like Librarians. GK libbys are a full 50 points more than vanilla.

Of course that's over looking the fact that they come with terminator armor AND the 50 point upgrade to a level 2 psyker....that was a bad example on your part since it's actually 20 points CHEAPER then a vanilla librarian with similar rules.

As for explanation? Tacticals suck compared to everything. It's called a "Tactical Tax" for a reason.

LOL... so yet another unit that is superior to the Codex: Space Marines version for less points.

Also, was that sarcasm saying that Tacticals suck compared to everything?

Yes, one on one, or even squad on squad, power armour Grey Knights are superior to tactical marines.

However they are more expensive.

A typical 10 man squad, two psycannon, hammer and a Rhino is 270 points. A tactical squad with multi-melta, flamer and Rhino is 205. That 65 points adds up fast over a few squads.

They can't cost Grey Knights against Space Marines, because if they did they wouldn't have enough models to compete in any level of the game. As it is, many competitive builds will revolve around Coteaz and his ability to allow henchmen as troops choices freeing up more points for really dangerous units (as well as providing the ever essential melta threat). 6 acolytes, 3 meltaguns, las-plas razorback is 134 points, and far more useful than the aforementioned Grey Knight squad.

I play GK, and with a good list and a lot of discipline, you can win. Always use your psychic powers, and never assault something you havent shot to bits first. They are neither an assault or shooty army, they do both equally well, so you have to have a healthy mix.

IdentifyZero wrote:Also, was that sarcasm saying that Tacticals suck compared to everything?

Sadly no. Other then Tau and Necrons I can't really think of a book with worse troops.

As a long time Ultramarine player, I'm running out of ideas to stay ahead of all the new armies.

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:Yes, one on one, or even squad on squad, power armour Grey Knights are superior to tactical marines.

However they are more expensive.

A typical 10 man squad, two psycannon, hammer and a Rhino is 270 points. A tactical squad with multi-melta, flamer and Rhino is 205. That 65 points adds up fast over a few squads.

They can't cost Grey Knights against Space Marines, because if they did they wouldn't have enough models to compete in any level of the game. As it is, many competitive builds will revolve around Coteaz and his ability to allow henchmen as troops choices freeing up more points for really dangerous units (as well as providing the ever essential melta threat). 6 acolytes, 3 meltaguns, las-plas razorback is 134 points, and far more useful than the aforementioned Grey Knight squad.

I kind of like how you didn't give them comparable upgrades. to make one seem like it costs a lot more. Power Fist on Sergeant - 25 points right there, which is comparable to the hammer which costs you guys 10 and the points difference only seems to be 45 and then you're probably going to want upgrades; likely a meltagun & a combi-melta which is another 15.

Either way, you're looking at roughly 30 points more on a 10 man with transport for 10 power weapons, 10 24" assault 2 bolters, 2 psychic powers etc...

Yep TWO psychic powers is overpowered.

Except they are Mastery level 1. Which means it's ONE of them (and no force weapon ability) at a time.

You can't Hammerhand with them AND use the forceweapon ID ability with them.
If you want to ID them, you do it at S4. Many of the multiwound units are tougher than T4. Which means you need 5's to wound (or 6s). These are not guaranteed kills.

Now if they were ALL ML2, then yes, it might be a problem. They aren't. Most of the units aren't ML2. So it's a trade off. One or the other.

chromedog wrote:Yep TWO psychic powers is overpowered.

Except they are Mastery level 1. Which means it's ONE of them (and no force weapon ability) at a time.

You can't Hammerhand with them AND use the forceweapon ID ability with them.
If you want to ID them, you do it at S4. Many of the multiwound units are tougher than T4. Which means you need 5's to wound (or 6s). These are not guaranteed kills.

Now if they were ALL ML2, then yes, it might be a problem. They aren't. Most of the units aren't ML2. So it's a trade off. One or the other.

I chuckled. They also have Warp Quake...so in essence they have 3 psychic powers. 1 for screwing over deepstriking lists (Demons, DoA, Drop-pod assault just to name a few), 1 for butchering basic infantry or helping them crack vehicles in melee, and the good old force weapon to insta' splat monstrous creatures. Flexibility is never a downside. Considering the tactical squad they are compared to can do none of the above....yeah.

I haven't seen any logical justifications.

Just that it's not overpowered they get so much for so little points.

I should clarify, just the fact that they can use 1 psychic power a turn, let alone choose between 3 (counting the NFW) is pretty powerful without including all of the other stuff. I was even hoping, someone could have pointed out a downside to this... all I see is:

Nemesis Force Weapons = Win.
Choice of Psychic Powers in Normal Unit = Win.
Deep Strike = Useful and a positive.
Fairly cheap upgrades = Win.
Extremely Flexible, some might say 'Tactical' = Win.

My point is and it's something a lot of Marine players are pointing out (The FLGS I play at, marines are a small minority at all 3) we are being rapidly hit with Codex Creep. I understand every army list is different, that's obvious and I enjoy that aspect of the game, but points values are supposed to keep armies at relatively the same 'power' level for the same points value. I never had a big issue with unit points values through 2nd-4th edition but in 5th Edition, I am seeing more and more of this 'oddity'.

Aside from selling more models for various reasons (New Kits + New Armies + Good Rules = Lots of Sales.) There is also (Lesser points cost = people buy more models to field their force). I'm sure if they kept GKs closer to the old points costs, it wouldn't be so bad. As it stands, you're paying 10 points extra over their closest equivalent comparison, for an amazing slew of upgrades & wargear.

So much insanity, my brain hurts.

I think the "balance" you will see most people spout is that they aren't any tougher to kill then normal tactical marines, but cost 25% more per model. Of course that's on a model by model basis, and as you calculated it's only ~11% more per squad basis.

Which is low in my opinion.

Of course, this is comparing them to Tactical marines. Try comparing them to Ork Boyz, Grey Hunters or Genestealers or something and they look a lot closer to balanced.

Every new Marine troop that comes out makes me rage

Grey hunters with 3 attacks whether they charge or not and the exact same price as tacticals

Assault Marine squads with double melta, fist, jump packs deep striking with 1+ reserve and 1D6 scatter

Grey knight basic troops with storm bolters and fething force weapons on every single guy, only slightly more expensive then tacticals


Vanilla marines, with a 5th edition codex, get a choice between garbage, or lower BS/WS/armor garbage. We literally have the worst troops in 5th ed. Doesn't make us bad though, I am not saying we are underpowered. Just have to take min troops and max out fast/elite/heavy and hope for the best.

Carnage43 wrote:I think the "balance" you will see most people spout is that they aren't any tougher to kill then normal tactical marines, but cost 25% more per model. Of course that's on a model by model basis, and as you calculated it's only ~11% more per squad basis.

Which is low in my opinion.

Of course, this is comparing them to Tactical marines. Try comparing them to Ork Boyz, Grey Hunters or Genestealers or something and they look a lot closer to balanced.

One squad costs 90 and the other costs 100.

That is 18 points per Tactical marine. 20 Points per Grey Knight. 2 Point difference. It's actually closer to a 10% difference in cost. You literally pay 2 points more a model for a power weapon, a storm bolter (which is an upgrade to a bolter) & a psychic power.

Good point on comparing them to other Codexes though. After reading through a few, I'm wondering WTF is up with Codex: Space Marines 5th...



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scubasteve04 wrote:Vanilla marines, with a 5th edition codex, get a choice between garbage, or lower BS/WS/armor garbage. We literally have the worst troops in 5th ed. Doesn't make us bad though, I am not saying we are underpowered. Just have to take min troops and max out fast/elite/heavy and hope for the best.

Yeah, I just came back in 5th and I do realize the Blood Angels, Space Wolves and now Grey Knights have far superior troops to us vanilla Codex players. The thing is....

Unless you play all out war scenarios with kill points only or you allow other units aside from troops to score, how are you going to manage with just 2 troops? In the local tournies, ONLY Troops can Hold OR Contest which obviously increases the value some here; as in many cases, units other then troops can contest.

In many cases, if you are smart and eliminate your opponents troops in the objective based game... you are almost guaranteed victory. Granted, these are only 1000 point tournaments. In a bigger game, it becomes easier to min/max with such things.

I just feel like the hobby has become like MMOs, the new thing to come out is always the best and shiniest.

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:Yes, one on one, or even squad on squad, power armour Grey Knights are superior to tactical marines.

However they are more expensive.

A typical 10 man squad, two psycannon, hammer and a Rhino is 270 points. A tactical squad with multi-melta, flamer and Rhino is 205. That 65 points adds up fast over a few squads.

They can't cost Grey Knights against Space Marines, because if they did they wouldn't have enough models to compete in any level of the game. As it is, many competitive builds will revolve around Coteaz and his ability to allow henchmen as troops choices freeing up more points for really dangerous units (as well as providing the ever essential melta threat). 6 acolytes, 3 meltaguns, las-plas razorback is 134 points, and far more useful than the aforementioned Grey Knight squad.

I completely agree with the OP. This example just further proves the attempt to justify the cost difference as flawed. 10 man squad with psykic power, drastically better weapons in every instance of what you depict a "typical squad" as having (psycannon > flamer, psycannon > multimelta, storm bolter > boltgun, NFW > bolt pistol, hammer > chainsword), and yes, the same transport. If anything, GK players should be happy it only costs 65 more points. Try a SM sarge with a powerfist as the closest thing to a hammer, and a plasma gun instead of flamer and now its only 25 more points. Considering the cost of a storm bolter upgrade is between 3 and 5 points depending on the model (for SM that can actually take it), you are already getting quite a deal, and this is without the force weapons or psykers. Don't even try to justify it, it is just creep plain and simple. Heavan forbid they should have to use something as un-useful as the aforementioned Grey Knight squad... And then there's the nerve of asserting that the Nemesis falchions should give +2A because otherwise they aren't points cost efficient compared to the other nemesis weapons... and don't get started on vindicare assassins.

It is following the same pattern of attracting the bandwagoners with its sheer weight of creep awesomeness.

yeenoghu wrote:

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:Yes, one on one, or even squad on squad, power armour Grey Knights are superior to tactical marines.

However they are more expensive.

A typical 10 man squad, two psycannon, hammer and a Rhino is 270 points. A tactical squad with multi-melta, flamer and Rhino is 205. That 65 points adds up fast over a few squads.

They can't cost Grey Knights against Space Marines, because if they did they wouldn't have enough models to compete in any level of the game. As it is, many competitive builds will revolve around Coteaz and his ability to allow henchmen as troops choices freeing up more points for really dangerous units (as well as providing the ever essential melta threat). 6 acolytes, 3 meltaguns, las-plas razorback is 134 points, and far more useful than the aforementioned Grey Knight squad.

I completely agree with the OP. This example just further proves the attempt to justify the cost difference as flawed. 10 man squad with psykic power, drastically better weapons in every instance of what you depict a "typical squad" as having (psycannon > flamer, psycannon > multimelta, storm bolter > boltgun, NFW > bolt pistol, hammer > chainsword), and yes, the same transport. If anything, GK players should be happy it only costs 65 more points. Try a SM sarge with a powerfist as the closest thing to a hammer, and a plasma gun instead of flamer and now its only 25 more points. Considering the cost of a storm bolter upgrade is between 3 and 5 points depending on the model (for SM that can actually take it), you are already getting quite a deal, and this is without the force weapons or psykers. Don't even try to justify it, it is just creep plain and simple. Heavan forbid they should have to use something as un-useful as the aforementioned Grey Knight squad!

Well said friend. I love Warhammer 40,000, I just wish things weren't going in this direction. Grey Knights have always been a very powerful and ELITE army, but they cost a lot of points for it.

Now they've become the new Marines from what I see......

10 Tactical Marines = 170
10 Grey Knights = 200

Yes, PAGK can Deep Strike, but I think Drop Pods are better for that...

And the only special weapons PAGK can take are Psilencer, Incinerator, and Psycannon.

They really shouldn't be compared...

Tactical Marines do suck, they are one of the worst troop choices in the game and I have no idea why people like them or insist on play Smurfs.
The fact that they can only take one special weapon annoys me to no end.

CSM get two special weapons.
BT don't but they only require 5 Crusaders to unlock a heavy weapon option.
BA Tactical Marines can't, but Assault Marines can and who takes Tac Marines as BA?
DA can't but, that's 3rd edition...
Grey Hunters can.
Hell, even SoB can go duel meltaguns if they want.

WHY NOT TACTICAL MARINES?!

yeenoghu wrote:

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:Yes, one on one, or even squad on squad, power armour Grey Knights are superior to tactical marines.

However they are more expensive.

A typical 10 man squad, two psycannon, hammer and a Rhino is 270 points. A tactical squad with multi-melta, flamer and Rhino is 205. That 65 points adds up fast over a few squads.

They can't cost Grey Knights against Space Marines, because if they did they wouldn't have enough models to compete in any level of the game. As it is, many competitive builds will revolve around Coteaz and his ability to allow henchmen as troops choices freeing up more points for really dangerous units (as well as providing the ever essential melta threat). 6 acolytes, 3 meltaguns, las-plas razorback is 134 points, and far more useful than the aforementioned Grey Knight squad.

I completely agree with the OP. This example just further proves the attempt to justify the cost difference as flawed. 10 man squad with psychic power, drastically better weapons in every instance of what you depict a "typical squad" as having (psycannon > flamer, psycannon > multimelta, storm bolter > boltgun, NFW > bolt pistol, hammer > chainsword), and yes, the same transport.

Of course you do.

If anything, GK players should be happy it only costs 65 more points.
Try a SM sarge with a powerfist as the closest thing to a hammer, and a plasma gun instead of flamer and now its only 25 more points. Considering the cost of a storm bolter upgrade is between 3 and 5 points depending on the model (for SM that can actually take it), you are already getting quite a deal, and this is without the force weapons or psykers.

And what else do you get on that Tactical Squad? You're purposefully ignoring that many Codex: Space Marines characters replace "Combat Tactics" with something else.
Please.

Don't even try to justify it, it is just creep plain and simple. Heaven forbid they should have to use something as un-useful as the aforementioned Grey Knight squad!

Heaven forbid Marine players don't get what they want!

So where's my Dark Angels Tactical Marines being worth taking? Where's my Deathwing being top dog of the Terminator game? I mean, Grey Knights are better than my army--I should be better too!


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IdentifyZero wrote:
Well said friend. I love Warhammer 40,000, I just wish things weren't going in this direction. Grey Knights have always been a very powerful and ELITE army, but they cost a lot of points for it.

Now they've become the new Marines from what I see......

Oh please. Take a look at some of the builds that can be done with Grey Knights.

You can effectively field 8 models as an army. That's "powerful and ELITE".

The only difference is that now there's also the ability to field a more 'standard Marine' army as well.

This doesn't mean your precious Marines are somehow nerfed. It just means you need to buck up, quit whining that you've "got it soooo bad", and adapt.

Adapt? Like all the "counts as" marines? I have no problem that some other army is "better", as in, has superior stuff. That's all fine as long as the points costs reflect it. They don't reflect it at all.

Yes yes, and Grey Hunters and BA Assault squads are also way better than SM tacticals. When will people realize 40K (or fantasy) can never be a balanced game for tournament play? The design methodology simply doesn't allow for it. When they actually have a team of writers all working together on each book, so that each book is put out with the same level of oversight and no single individual's biases colors the whole product, then maybe we can start contemplating GW games as tournament-worthy.

Until then, it's all bogus. Just enjoy the mayhem and try not to think about it too hard. Or play Warmachine. *shrug*

Kanluwen wrote:

yeenoghu wrote:

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:Yes, one on one, or even squad on squad, power armour Grey Knights are superior to tactical marines.

However they are more expensive.

A typical 10 man squad, two psycannon, hammer and a Rhino is 270 points. A tactical squad with multi-melta, flamer and Rhino is 205. That 65 points adds up fast over a few squads.

They can't cost Grey Knights against Space Marines, because if they did they wouldn't have enough models to compete in any level of the game. As it is, many competitive builds will revolve around Coteaz and his ability to allow henchmen as troops choices freeing up more points for really dangerous units (as well as providing the ever essential melta threat). 6 acolytes, 3 meltaguns, las-plas razorback is 134 points, and far more useful than the aforementioned Grey Knight squad.

I completely agree with the OP. This example just further proves the attempt to justify the cost difference as flawed. 10 man squad with psychic power, drastically better weapons in every instance of what you depict a "typical squad" as having (psycannon > flamer, psycannon > multimelta, storm bolter > boltgun, NFW > bolt pistol, hammer > chainsword), and yes, the same transport.

Of course you do.

If anything, GK players should be happy it only costs 65 more points.
Try a SM sarge with a powerfist as the closest thing to a hammer, and a plasma gun instead of flamer and now its only 25 more points. Considering the cost of a storm bolter upgrade is between 3 and 5 points depending on the model (for SM that can actually take it), you are already getting quite a deal, and this is without the force weapons or psykers.

And what else do you get on that Tactical Squad? You're purposefully ignoring that many Codex: Space Marines characters replace "Combat Tactics" with something else.
Please.

Don't even try to justify it, it is just creep plain and simple. Heaven forbid they should have to use something as un-useful as the aforementioned Grey Knight squad!

Heaven forbid Marine players don't get what they want!

So where's my Dark Angels Tactical Marines being worth taking? Where's my Deathwing being top dog of the Terminator game? I mean, Grey Knights are better than my army--I should be better too!


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IdentifyZero wrote:
Well said friend. I love Warhammer 40,000, I just wish things weren't going in this direction. Grey Knights have always been a very powerful and ELITE army, but they cost a lot of points for it.

Now they've become the new Marines from what I see......

Oh please. Take a look at some of the builds that can be done with Grey Knights.

You can effectively field 8 models as an army. That's "powerful and ELITE".

The only difference is that now there's also the ability to field a more 'standard Marine' army as well.

This doesn't mean your precious Marines are somehow nerfed. It just means you need to buck up, quit whining that you've "got it soooo bad", and adapt.

You need to chill out. I found your post to be filled with barely concealed passive-aggressive rage that was just ready to burst through.

We were having a calm discussion. Would you like to join it, or would you like to try and vent your real life issues via forum raging?

IdentifyZero wrote:
You need to chill out. I found your post to be filled with barely concealed passive-aggressive rage that was just ready to burst through.

We were having a calm discussion. Would you like to join it, or would you like to try and vent your real life issues via forum raging?

"Calm discussion"?

I love how people always play the "calm discussion" card when their post was a great big whine and someone calls them on it. Or the ever popular "you're raging".

You're not interested in people "logically justifying" the Grey Knights. That's already been done, you've brushed it off.

Maybe, just maybe, one day you'll come to realize that armies aren't meant to be built around a single unit that is effectively "spammed".
Maybe you'll realize that while to you, Grey Knights look overpowered--to many other armies they're one great big bullseye.

In this particular case it's not that GK are overpowered (okay, Grey Hunters might be), but that regular Space Marines really suck.

Oh, and they don't have the same transport. GK transports can ignore shaken/stunned results.

I am going to go into the disagree camp for C:SM versus Grey Knights on the Tactical Marines versus PAGKs.

The comparative of C:SM versus Grey Knights is unfair in some respects.

C:SM forces its marines to go for the full ten man squad because it then opens up the gate of upgrades to make the unit better.

At ten models, you get this:

a free flamer or 5pt melta gun,
a free HB, MM, or ML.

Considering the Troop option PAGKs have to pay for most of their useful weapons aside from the Psilencer (which is debatable as to usefulness), PAGKs tend to get far more expensive than your typical Tac squad of SMs.

In addition, PAGKs unlock their upgrades at 5 models, meaning the codex designers know that these armies will tend to have a lower model count and therefore give them access to their options at a lower count of models (this assumes a GK army will stick with PAGKs and no Inquisitors, or Purifier troopers, ect.).

One thing to keep in mind with GKs as well is that even with all their fancy new weapons, they are also psykers and subject to weaknesses and weapons that target or hose pyskers specifically. A hammerhand or Force Weapon activation could potentially backfire or fail, leaving them as regular SMs with power weapons.

withershadow wrote:In this particular case it's not that GK are overpowered (okay, Grey Hunters might be), but that regular Space Marines really suck.

Really suck compared to what? Their specialized cousins?
Grey Hunters are seemingly OP when you simply compare them 1:1 for each trooper.

But when you actually sit back and look: Grey Hunters get no heavy weapon, and at best can take a power weapon/power fist. There's no Sergeant either.

Oh, and they don't have the same transport. GK transports can ignore shaken/stunned results.

They can only nullify Shaken/Stunned results from a successful Psychic test taken during the Movement phase.

Oh no, I need to not roll an 11 or 12 as opposed to ... not being able to do anything at all.

And not being able to take a heavy weapon is hardly a disadvantage. If regular tacticals could take two special weapons instead of a special and heavy, no one would take the heavy. Grey Hunters get a second special weapon for free, can take a power fist, and MotW and banner, which also makes them quite deadly in melee. If you want to give up the second special weapon, you can attach a wolfguard for more melee beatdown and a combi-weapon.

Regular Space Marines suck compared to any other 5th edition troop choice.

Kanluwen wrote:

IdentifyZero wrote:
You need to chill out. I found your post to be filled with barely concealed passive-aggressive rage that was just ready to burst through.

We were having a calm discussion. Would you like to join it, or would you like to try and vent your real life issues via forum raging?

"Calm discussion"?

I love how people always play the "calm discussion" card when their post was a great big whine and someone calls them on it. Or the ever popular "you're raging".

You're not interested in people "logically justifying" the Grey Knights. That's already been done, you've brushed it off.

Maybe, just maybe, one day you'll come to realize that armies aren't meant to be built around a single unit that is effectively "spammed".
Maybe you'll realize that while to you, Grey Knights look overpowered--to many other armies they're one great big bullseye.

Never called them overpowered, jumping to conclusions is a great sign of intelligent life.

I compared the points cost of normal GK Troops to Normal SM Troops and noted, there was a large disparity. I don't think a single post in this topic has been about GKs stomping anyone or people complaining they are incredibly OP.

The points costs are skewed. Did you read the topic or just rage and jump into a whine-fest?

withershadow wrote:Oh no, I need to not roll an 11 or 12 as opposed to ... not being able to do anything at all.

And not being able to take a heavy weapon is hardly a disadvantage. If regular tacticals could take two special weapons instead of a special and heavy, no one would take the heavy. Grey Hunters get a second special weapon for free, can take a power fist, and MotW and banner, which also makes them quite deadly in melee. If you want to give up the second special weapon, you can attach a wolfguard for more melee beatdown and a combi-weapon.

Regular Space Marines suck compared to any other 5th edition troop choice.

And some 3rd and 4th edition choices as well.

Grey Hunters get a second special weapon if the unit numbers 10 models.

Mark of the Wulfen can only be taken by one model.

Let's also not forget the "Leaders of the Pack" special rule.

No two Space Wolves characters may take the same wargear combination, Sagas, or even Psychic Powers.

WarOne wrote:I am going to go into the disagree camp for C:SM versus Grey Knights on the Tactical Marines versus PAGKs.

The comparative of C:SM versus Grey Knights is unfair in some respects.

C:SM forces its marines to go for the full ten man squad because it then opens up the gate of upgrades to make the unit better.

At ten models, you get this:

a free flamer or 5pt melta gun,
a free HB, MM, or ML.

Considering the Troop option PAGKs have to pay for most of their useful weapons aside from the Psilencer (which is debatable as to usefulness), PAGKs tend to get far more expensive than your typical Tac squad of SMs.

In addition, PAGKs unlock their upgrades at 5 models, meaning the codex designers know that these armies will tend to have a lower model count and therefore give them access to their options at a lower count of models (this assumes a GK army will stick with PAGKs and no Inquisitors, or Purifier troopers, ect.).

One thing to keep in mind with GKs as well is that even with all their fancy new weapons, they are also psykers and subject to weaknesses and weapons that target or hose pyskers specifically. A hammerhand or Force Weapon activation could potentially backfire or fail, leaving them as regular SMs with power weapons.

None of the GK upgrades cost more then regular Tactical Marine upgrades. In fact, they get cheaper upgrades on the whole which tend to be better versions of what normal marines get. Take a look at both codex entries. I think if you ignore everything else in difference, just consider this: GKs get Nemesis Force Weapons for 2 points each.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Amaya wrote:

withershadow wrote:Oh no, I need to not roll an 11 or 12 as opposed to ... not being able to do anything at all.

And not being able to take a heavy weapon is hardly a disadvantage. If regular tacticals could take two special weapons instead of a special and heavy, no one would take the heavy. Grey Hunters get a second special weapon for free, can take a power fist, and MotW and banner, which also makes them quite deadly in melee. If you want to give up the second special weapon, you can attach a wolfguard for more melee beatdown and a combi-weapon.

Regular Space Marines suck compared to any other 5th edition troop choice.

And some 3rd and 4th edition choices as well.

Yep.... which is why it is funny Captain Rage jumped in the topic and got upset. xD