Switch Theme:

Codex: Grey Knights & Codex: Space Marines... WTF?  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





IdentifyZero wrote:
omerakk wrote:
Dashofpepper wrote:I play Necrons. I regularly beat up on GK. Stop whining.


Have you beat them with SM?


SM can beat GK, that was never the discussion of this topic, except for people who came in and posted off-topic.

It has never been about WHO CAN BEAT WHO! It was just the points cost/wargear difference.....

@Omerakk: I do appreciate you asking the guy telling people to stop whining mind you, just, nobody is whining about GK vs SM in a fight. xD


So in other words, this is a pointless discussion. In a theoretical world where only Tac squads and GKSS squads existed, then yes, it would be a problem. No one, as far as I know, is disagreeing with that very limited premise. However, what I think most people are saying is that the amount of complaining about Tac squads that is going on misses the basic point that Tac marines aren't where the C:SM makes their money.

I think that what Kanluwen and others have said is not deflecting the subject, but instead saying, "Yeah, GKSS are undercosted compared to Tac Marines, BUT that doesn't matter." It's kind of like saying that Vespid suck in comparison to Grey Hunters. It's true, but it doesn't really mean anything.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/04/26 00:26:59


 
   
Made in us
Imperial Guard Landspeeder Pilot




On moon miranda.

Kanluwen wrote:

But when you actually sit back and look: Grey Hunters get no heavy weapon, and at best can take a power weapon/power fist. There's no Sergeant either.
This comes up like every time GH's are discussed. Nobody would take Heavy Weapons even if GH's could. How often do you see Chaos Marines with heavy weapons? Almost never. They can still get a sergeant, who is in fact significantly cheaper with significantly cheaper options than other sergeant equivalents and all it means is that they can't take triple special weapons and they have to use an Elites slot. Given that they can still get a Special weapon and a Combi, and still be noticeably cheaper after everything is said and done while being just as good at short range shooting and better at CC, coupled with the fact that very few SW lists use all 3 Elites slots on something other than Wolf Guard, where's the downside? I don't see it. I've yet to see a SW list that really felt the pinch of that Elite slot, and was much happier with the overequipped Counterattack troops that cost fewer points.

They can only nullify Shaken/Stunned results from a successful Psychic test taken during the Movement phase.
Which for the most part 99% of the time is functionally the same thing. They have an 11 out of 12 chance to ignore any stunned/shaken results an enemy inflicted on them in the previous turn. So, for Extra Armor which simply downgrades Stunned to Shaken, armies pay 15pts. GK's pay 5pts to flat out ignore both results 11 of 12 times.

IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights!
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Tilter at Windmills






Manchester, NH

Sgt_Scruffy wrote:
IdentifyZero wrote:SM can beat GK, that was never the discussion of this topic, except for people who came in and posted off-topic.

It has never been about WHO CAN BEAT WHO! It was just the points cost/wargear difference.....

@Omerakk: I do appreciate you asking the guy telling people to stop whining mind you, just, nobody is whining about GK vs SM in a fight. xD
So in other words, this is a pointless discussion. In a theoretical world where only Tac squads and GKSS squads existed, then yes, it would be a problem. No one, as far as I know, is disagreeing with that very limited premise. However, what I think most people are saying is that the amount of complaining about Tac squads that is going on misses the basic point that Tac marines aren't where the C:SM makes their money.

I think that what Kanluwen and others have said is not deflecting the subject, but instead saying, "Yeah, GKSS are undercosted compared to Tac Marines, BUT that doesn't matter." It's kind of like saying that Vespid suck in comparison to Grey Hunters. It's true, but it doesn't really mean anything.


This.

Adepticon 2015: Team Tourney Best Imperial Team- Team Ironguts, Adepticon 2014: Team Tourney 6th/120, Best Imperial Team- Cold Steel Mercs 2, 40k Championship Qualifier ~25/226
More 2010-2014 GT/Major RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 78-20-9 // SW: 8-1-2 (Golden Ticket with SW), BA: 29-9-4 6th Ed GT & RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 36-12-2 // BA: 11-4-1 // SW: 1-1-1
DT:70S++++G(FAQ)M++B++I+Pw40k99#+D+++A+++/sWD105R+++T(T)DM+++++
A better way to score Sportsmanship in tournaments
The 40K Rulebook & Codex FAQs. You should have these bookmarked if you play this game.
The Dakka Dakka Forum Rules You agreed to abide by these when you signed up.

Maelstrom's Edge! 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Sgt_Scruffy wrote:
So in other words, this is a pointless discussion. In a theoretical world where only Tac squads and GKSS squads existed, then yes, it would be a problem. No one, as far as I know, is disagreeing with that very limited premise. However, what I think most people are saying is that the amount of complaining about Tac squads that is going on misses the basic point that Tac marines aren't where the C:SM makes their money.

I think that what Kanluwen and others have said is not deflecting the subject, but instead saying, "Yeah, GKSS are undercosted compared to Tac Marines, BUT that doesn't matter." It's kind of like saying that Vespid suck in comparison to Grey Hunters. It's true, but it doesn't really mean anything.

Regardless of where Space Marines "make their money" (Vulkan, Vanguard, TH/SS terminators, LSS), it's pretty damn sad that the basic troop choice is so horrendous. It's not creep in the sense that the newer books are more powerful overall, but the individual units do show that they are learning from their mistakes.

On a completely unrelated note, I do hope the new Chaos Space Marines will be as badass as they deserve to be.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/04/26 02:55:05


 
   
Made in ca
Honored Helliarch on Hypex





Canada

withershadow wrote:
Sgt_Scruffy wrote:
So in other words, this is a pointless discussion. In a theoretical world where only Tac squads and GKSS squads existed, then yes, it would be a problem. No one, as far as I know, is disagreeing with that very limited premise. However, what I think most people are saying is that the amount of complaining about Tac squads that is going on misses the basic point that Tac marines aren't where the C:SM makes their money.

I think that what Kanluwen and others have said is not deflecting the subject, but instead saying, "Yeah, GKSS are undercosted compared to Tac Marines, BUT that doesn't matter." It's kind of like saying that Vespid suck in comparison to Grey Hunters. It's true, but it doesn't really mean anything.

Regardless of where Space Marines "make their money" (Vulkan, Vanguard, TH/SS terminators, LSS), it's pretty damn sad that the basic troop choice is so horrendous. It's not creep in the sense that the newer books are more powerful overall, but the individual units do show that they are learning from their mistakes.

On a completely unrelated note, I do hope the new Chaos Space Marines will be as badass as they deserve to be.


I am sure it will be. Chaos Space Marines book will probably be amazing.
   
Made in ca
Bloodthirsty Chaos Knight




IdentifyZero wrote:
withershadow wrote:
Sgt_Scruffy wrote:
So in other words, this is a pointless discussion. In a theoretical world where only Tac squads and GKSS squads existed, then yes, it would be a problem. No one, as far as I know, is disagreeing with that very limited premise. However, what I think most people are saying is that the amount of complaining about Tac squads that is going on misses the basic point that Tac marines aren't where the C:SM makes their money.

I think that what Kanluwen and others have said is not deflecting the subject, but instead saying, "Yeah, GKSS are undercosted compared to Tac Marines, BUT that doesn't matter." It's kind of like saying that Vespid suck in comparison to Grey Hunters. It's true, but it doesn't really mean anything.

Regardless of where Space Marines "make their money" (Vulkan, Vanguard, TH/SS terminators, LSS), it's pretty damn sad that the basic troop choice is so horrendous. It's not creep in the sense that the newer books are more powerful overall, but the individual units do show that they are learning from their mistakes.

On a completely unrelated note, I do hope the new Chaos Space Marines will be as badass as they deserve to be.


I am sure it will be. Chaos Space Marines book will probably be amazing.


Im waiting for it to happen, so I can start Iron Warriors. Not doin it with their current dex.

I also wish they would give Tacticals a close combat weapon in their profile. They carry combat blades, I don't understand how Guardsmen get a CCW in their profile for having a bayonet, but a Space Marine with a combat blade does not?

Grey Hunter= CCW, Chaos Space Marine= CCW Tactical marine= No CCW

WTF?!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/04/26 06:04:27







 
   
Made in us
Imperial Guard Landspeeder Pilot




On moon miranda.

it's about role. Chaos Marines got the BP/CCW combo to represent their greater focus on CC and veteran status in an easy and simple way over basic CSM's. Then SW's came along and became "SM+CSM+1 at the same cost" and through the whole thing out of whack.

IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights!
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
Made in us
Chosen Baal Sec Youngblood






This may be off topic from your standard troop versus standard troop thing. In my case i tend to have the edge against GKs as blood angels, i use the Lucifer engines well to my advantage on my pred and baal preds. Run, shoot, run shoot, run shoot.
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Tilter at Windmills






Manchester, NH

withershadow wrote:Regardless of where Space Marines "make their money" (Vulkan, Vanguard, TH/SS terminators, LSS), it's pretty damn sad that the basic troop choice is so horrendous. It's not creep in the sense that the newer books are more powerful overall, but the individual units do show that they are learning from their mistakes.


They're not actually horrendous; that's hyperbole. They're not as efficient as other units in particular roles, so use them at what they do well. Combat Squads works very well to give you a heavy weapon which can camp an objective in the backfield while still contributing fire support, while still leaving you another scoring unit to move more aggressively. Combi-weapons give the squad a turn of having two special weapons, which (as SW players with Wolf Guard know) is often all you need. Larger squads are good at moving up to midfield to abuse light enemy units with bolterfire & special weapons, then Combat Tactics-running away from disadvantageous fights. Alternately, instead of big units, you can take squads of 5 with Razorbacks. Again, the sgt can have a combi-weapon. A friend of mine has great results using las/plas razors with combi-flamers on the sgts. The flamer boosts their hitting power to clear a light (scouts, grots, pathfinders) or damaged enemy unit off an objective with an end-of-game assault.

Sure, when you compare with GH they're inferior at HtH, but HtH's not their role. If you want/need to kill GH in combat, use Hammernators, Ironclads, or characters (Vulkan's a beast) for that.


IdentifyZero wrote:Chaos Space Marines book will probably be amazing. [/quote
scubasteve04 wrote: Im waiting for it to happen, so I can start Iron Warriors. Not doin it with their current dex.


I'd say go for it. The current kits (aside from the Dread) are fine or great. The current codex is perfectly viable. I beat SW and IG with it more than I lose to them. It's got some flavor issues and isn't overall as good as a couple of the newer books, but can certainly be used to make thematic and competitive armies. If you have a fully-painted IW army before the next book comes out, you also avoid looking like a bandwagon-jumper.

Adepticon 2015: Team Tourney Best Imperial Team- Team Ironguts, Adepticon 2014: Team Tourney 6th/120, Best Imperial Team- Cold Steel Mercs 2, 40k Championship Qualifier ~25/226
More 2010-2014 GT/Major RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 78-20-9 // SW: 8-1-2 (Golden Ticket with SW), BA: 29-9-4 6th Ed GT & RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 36-12-2 // BA: 11-4-1 // SW: 1-1-1
DT:70S++++G(FAQ)M++B++I+Pw40k99#+D+++A+++/sWD105R+++T(T)DM+++++
A better way to score Sportsmanship in tournaments
The 40K Rulebook & Codex FAQs. You should have these bookmarked if you play this game.
The Dakka Dakka Forum Rules You agreed to abide by these when you signed up.

Maelstrom's Edge! 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Can anyone try to provide some logical justification? This looks like to me, about 50-100 points extra of wargear for 10 points. Does any army have a basic troop choice that good??? The average Grey Knight costs 4pts more then a Tactical marine and is given a force weapon to along with everything else.
your forgetting that sergeants are an extra ten points. so fully kitted out they really are closer to

Grey knights:225 points that's 10 guys and a psycannon. Remember these only get ONE attack as opposed to the sergeants 2 for his power weapons.

Space Marines: 170 that's ten guys a flamer and a missile launcher or multi melta.

a 55 point difference which equates about 5.5 points for shorter ranged anti-tank, and force weapons for everyone. tacticals never were supposed to be the CC monsters GK are supposed to be, they'e supposed to be jack of all trades. which they are with their much better ranged combat.

011000100111010101110100001000000110100 100100000011101000110010101101100011011 000010000001111001011011110111010100100 000011101110110010100100000011101110110 010101110010011001010010000001100111011 011110110010001110011001000000110111101 101110011000110110010100100000011000010 110111001100100001000000111011101100101 001000000111001101101000011000010110110 001101100001000000110001001100101001000 000110011101101111011001000111001100100 000011000010110011101100001011010010110 1110  
   
Made in gb
Nurgle Chosen Marine on a Palanquin




Dumbarton, Scotland

To use the famous phrase: This thread is going to be so locked, every thread within d6" will be locked too.

Karyorhexxus' Sons of the Locust: 1000pts 
   
Made in us
Land Raider Pilot on Cruise Control





Why would they lock this, there hasn't been any personal attacks or flaming/trolling.

Anyways, I understand the argument that you can't compare a codexes units in a vacuum. That being said, Tactical Squads are still bad. There so many things that can just crush them in CC that shouldn't be able to. Only having one base attack is just pathetic for these great warriors they are supposed to be. And who is afraid of bolter fire?

Heavy Weapons are worthless, I'll gladly let you pay 200+ points for a squad that stands in one space and shoots one heavy weapon all game
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Mannahnin wrote: Alternately, instead of big units, you can take squads of 5 with Razorbacks. Again, the sgt can have a combi-weapon. A friend of mine has great results using las/plas razors with combi-flamers on the sgts. The flamer boosts their hitting power to clear a light (scouts, grots, pathfinders) or damaged enemy unit off an objective with an end-of-game assault.

Codex Space Marines do razorspam the absolute worst out of any of the current power armor armies.

BA Razorbacks are cheaper and have Fast. GK Razorbacks have Fortitude and can take Psy-bolts. Then you have to consider the quality of the troops within. Except for that one-time special weapon shot and scoring, that unit does absolutely nothing. I've taken down 5 vanilla marines in close combat with just basic veteran guardsmen. Even Tau warriors can easily fight them to a standstill.

BA can take a regular special weapon, the sarge can take a special weapon pistol, and they have bolt pistols so they at least have 10 attacks in close combat (or 15 + bolt pistols on the charge) to take out small units. Add the ubiquitious FNP and furious charge, and they are probably doing this better than anyone.

Space Wolves can take a regular special weapon, have bolt pistols and other goodies to make them more dangerous in combat, and can attach a Wolf Guard with a combi-weapon.

Grey Knight Strike squads also just have one attack each, but the power weapons and hammerhand at least gives them a bit of an edge against power armor. Their real utility lies in their shooting, being able to take a psycannon and upgrade all the stormbolters to S5.

So if calling vanilla Marine troops "horrendous" is hyperbole, it's only slightly so. A successful CSM list is one that can compensate the most for the inherent crappiness of their troops.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/04/26 14:45:51


 
   
Made in ca
Honored Helliarch on Hypex





Canada

The Combat Blade counting as a CCW would actually be a single improvement to Tactical Space marines that would actually make them a lot better.

These guys aren't actually supposed to be 'inexperienced' or 'basic' marines. These Battle-Brothers have completed their tours in the Assault & Devastator Squads before being moved into the Tactical Squads.

Let's be fair, Tactical Squads do not /suck/ but in comparison to other troop choices, they may not be as good. They're still a jack of all trades in a way though, mind you, having a 2nd attack base would really make it so.
   
Made in us
Imperial Guard Landspeeder Pilot




On moon miranda.

withershadow wrote:
BA Razorbacks are cheaper and have Fast. GK Razorbacks have Fortitude and can take Psy-bolts. Then you have to consider the quality of the troops within. Except for that one-time special weapon shot and scoring, that unit does absolutely nothing. I've taken down 5 vanilla marines in close combat with just basic veteran guardsmen. Even Tau warriors can easily fight them to a standstill.
Ok, as much as I like pointing out the ridiculous SM inflation of 5E, guardsmen and fire warriors aren't any better next to normal Space Marines than they were in 4E or 3E. It'll still take an average of 20 fire warriors, and 26-27 guardsmen, or to tie combat with 5 Space Marines (assuming neither side charged).

IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights!
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
Made in ca
Infiltrating Broodlord





Oshawa Ontario

IdentifyZero wrote:The Combat Blade counting as a CCW would actually be a single improvement to Tactical Space marines that would actually make them a lot better.

These guys aren't actually supposed to be 'inexperienced' or 'basic' marines. These Battle-Brothers have completed their tours in the Assault & Devastator Squads before being moved into the Tactical Squads.

Let's be fair, Tactical Squads do not /suck/ but in comparison to other troop choices, they may not be as good. They're still a jack of all trades in a way though, mind you, having a 2nd attack base would really make it so.


Giving tacticals a CCW would go a long way to making them better overall, I agree, but I don't think this is really the best solution. If they had a BP and CCW it would basically make assault squad obsolete for example (not that that is a bad thing, assault squads are unimpressive). I think that "Vanilla" marines should lean more heavily towards shooting and away from combat, leave that for BA/SW/BT/Every single other marine codex. Something like "bolter drill; a space marine squad with a sergeant can re-roll missed "to-hit" rolls in the shooting phase with bolt weapons" would probably be enough to make me happy.

Something, ANYTHING to make them even slightly better then the other marine codexes in any way would be awesome because being inferior in every way means there's no reason to play them.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/04/26 15:00:27


Looking for Durham Region gamers in Ontario Canada, send me a PM!

See my gallery for Chapterhouse's Tervigon, fully painted.
 
   
Made in ca
Honored Helliarch on Hypex





Canada

Bringing back Overwatch comes to mind as one way Tactical Marines could get their OOMPH back.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





withershadow wrote:
Mannahnin wrote: Alternately, instead of big units, you can take squads of 5 with Razorbacks. Again, the sgt can have a combi-weapon. A friend of mine has great results using las/plas razors with combi-flamers on the sgts. The flamer boosts their hitting power to clear a light (scouts, grots, pathfinders) or damaged enemy unit off an objective with an end-of-game assault.

Codex Space Marines do razorspam the absolute worst out of any of the current power armor armies.

BA Razorbacks are cheaper and have Fast. GK Razorbacks have Fortitude and can take Psy-bolts. Then you have to consider the quality of the troops within. Except for that one-time special weapon shot and scoring, that unit does absolutely nothing. I've taken down 5 vanilla marines in close combat with just basic veteran guardsmen. Even Tau warriors can easily fight them to a standstill.

BA can take a regular special weapon, the sarge can take a special weapon pistol, and they have bolt pistols so they at least have 10 attacks in close combat (or 15 + bolt pistols on the charge) to take out small units. Add the ubiquitious FNP and furious charge, and they are probably doing this better than anyone.

Space Wolves can take a regular special weapon, have bolt pistols and other goodies to make them more dangerous in combat, and can attach a Wolf Guard with a combi-weapon.

Grey Knight Strike squads also just have one attack each, but the power weapons and hammerhand at least gives them a bit of an edge against power armor. Their real utility lies in their shooting, being able to take a psycannon and upgrade all the stormbolters to S5.

So if calling vanilla Marine troops "horrendous" is hyperbole, it's only slightly so. A successful CSM list is one that can compensate the most for the inherent crappiness of their troops.


and codex space marines can take bike troops, have a myriad of cool special characters and generally don't fall back.

011000100111010101110100001000000110100 100100000011101000110010101101100011011 000010000001111001011011110111010100100 000011101110110010100100000011101110110 010101110010011001010010000001100111011 011110110010001110011001000000110111101 101110011000110110010100100000011000010 110111001100100001000000111011101100101 001000000111001101101000011000010110110 001101100001000000110001001100101001000 000110011101101111011001000111001100100 000011000010110011101100001011010010110 1110  
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





You guys who are saying that Vanilla Tac Marines are the worst troops in this edition really need to play an army that is not T4/3+ sometime. Are vanilla Tacs on the level with Grey hunters? Of course not, as Grey Hunters are the most cost efficient troop choice in the entire game in a book that is a clinical study of codex creep. Are they on the level with GK Strike Squads? I would say they are comparably worse, but have the advantages of access to drop pods and access to a heavy weapon that has range in excess of 24".

Compare them to anything outside the MEQ universe, and its a whole other story. In a game where you need survivable troops to hold objectives, they completely curbstomp anything in the Eldar, Dark Eldar, and Tau troop selections, both in their battlefield performance and survivability. Outside of Genestealers, they are more than a match for anything in the Tyranid troop section. They also compare very favorably to Necron Warriors. I play all of those armies and I would KILL to have tactical marines in my troops section.

The argument might be made that blobbed guard infantry is superior, but once you put in special characters you change the game. Basic guard blobs still die horribly to equal points of Tac marines. Mech Vets are better than vanilla marines in their role, but pretty much die like flies when their Chimera pops, wheras the tacs can hang in there a good long time. I would put Sisters and Orks on equal footing with Tac Marines, in terms of points efficiency.

So out of the 8 non SM armies, Tac Marines are better than most and equal to the remainder. Not too bad for an older book. But don't worry. If past history has proven anything it is that GW is sensitive to the whining of the unwashed masses of marine players (who regularly get two updates per edition) and they will likely redo the book in a way that renders all non-SM armies completely obsolete.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




gendoikari87 wrote:and codex space marines can take bike troops, have a myriad of cool special characters and generally don't fall back.

That's a way of compensating for the crappiness of Tac marines, so you are only further reinforcing my point. Scoring Sternguard, Bike troops, really aggressive Vulkan/Terminator/Speeder list that tries to wipe you out instead of camping objectives, all of these are an attempt to use the tac marines as little as possible.

Phazael wrote:You guys who are saying that Vanilla Tac Marines are the worst troops in this edition really need to play an army that is not T4/3+ sometime. Are vanilla Tacs on the level with Grey hunters? Of course not, as Grey Hunters are the most cost efficient troop choice in the entire game in a book that is a clinical study of codex creep. Are they on the level with GK Strike Squads? I would say they are comparably worse, but have the advantages of access to drop pods and access to a heavy weapon that has range in excess of 24".

I play Guard, and I consider them way better troops than Tactical Marines. They hold objectives way better than Marines. They can kill stuff way better than Marines. And they will rape marines in close combat. Those are blob squads. Veteran squads are better because they are cheaper and far more lethal. They can't stick around on an objective as long as a full squad of Space Marines, but I prefer to spend points on things that kill stuff and/or help me win the game, not just sit around doing nothing and hoping not to get tank shocked off the objective.

And again, as pointed out multiple times in the thread, the heavy weapon is not really an advantage.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2011/04/26 15:35:50


 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Terminator with Assault Cannon






It's nothing new... IMO Codex Space Marines has been invalidated for some time now. It's only a matter of time before it's completely unusable. :(
   
Made in ca
Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant




Ontario

The thing is, I don't really want CC focused vanilla Space Marines. My real love would be for a focus on close to mid range shooting for the tactical squads. Something like Bolter drill would be really nice, a chance to re-roll missed hits, or possibly something akin to stand and shoot from Warhammer Fantasy. I would absolutely love it if to charge my tac squads, you had to wade through the storm of Boltfire that they are supposedly so adept at.

If you want to make Tac Squads better, make them worth shooting, leave all the CC focus to the crazy blood-lusting wierdoes from the other chapters.

DCDA:90-S++G+++MB++I+Pw40k98-D+++A+++/areWD007R++T(S)DM+ 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Ohio

Dashofpepper wrote:I play Necrons. I regularly beat up on GK. Stop whining.


I'm kinda not surprised by this. GKs lack any good counter to monoliths. I've been wondering if the new and improved 'crons will prove to be the rock to the GKs scissors.
   
Made in ca
Honored Helliarch on Hypex





Canada

Phazael wrote:So out of the 8 non SM armies, Tac Marines are better than most and equal to the remainder. Not too bad for an older book. But don't worry. If past history has proven anything it is that GW is sensitive to the whining of the unwashed masses of marine players (who regularly get two updates per edition) and they will likely redo the book in a way that renders all non-SM armies completely obsolete.



Please try to make your point without jumping to insults and stereotypes. It is a sign of poor character.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




S10 TH hitting on 4s are a damn good counter. OR enough S8 rifleman shots to immobilise them so they are less useful at force projection.
   
Made in ca
Honored Helliarch on Hypex





Canada

nosferatu1001 wrote:S10 TH hitting on 4s are a damn good counter. OR enough S8 rifleman shots to immobilise them so they are less useful at force projection.


Hey Mate, we weren't actually worrying about how to kill GKs. xD Just discussing the costs in comparison.

Thanks for your input!
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





IdentifyZero wrote:
Phazael wrote:So out of the 8 non SM armies, Tac Marines are better than most and equal to the remainder. Not too bad for an older book. But don't worry. If past history has proven anything it is that GW is sensitive to the whining of the unwashed masses of marine players (who regularly get two updates per edition) and they will likely redo the book in a way that renders all non-SM armies completely obsolete.



Please try to make your point without jumping to insults and stereotypes. It is a sign of poor character.


How is it a stereotype when everything that the general SM population has ever complained about GW has turned around and caved in on? How is it insulting when 90% of the playerbase are battleforce kiddies running unpainted counts as <insert newest broken SM codex here> whenever you go to a FLGS? Its not a stereotype or insulting if its true.

List of things GW has caved on that SM playerbase whined about in Xenos armies in rescent history:
Star Cannon Nerf (meanwhile Plasma Cannons get indirect buff through template rules and a cost reduction), Wraith Lord Nerf (Hello Dreadknight), Witches Nerfed, Sustained Assault removed (and given to SW in improved form), Aspect Warriors as troops option removed (while MEQ armies can have bikes, terms, and even dreadnaughts as troop options), Shadows of the Warp faqed to be neutralized by the magical Rhino (while SM Libbies can safely hood things from the confines of said same vehicle), Tyranid army loses all access to Eternal Warrior (BA and GK have flying/dreadnaught/MC force weapon rape machines), Removal of Outnumber rules makes fearless a huge liability for Orcs and Nids (ATSKNF and Combat Tactics?), Nid book stripped of all assault grenades (all MEQs now come stock with them), and so on...

So, if I come off a little bitter over Vanilla marine players complaining how "bad" SM Tac squads are, its because as a Xenos player its bittersweet irony to see MEQ players complain about anything.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




IdentityZero - that was in response to "GK dont have any counter to monoliths"

They have more than enough. DK, psyriflemen and S10 TH do that.
   
Made in ca
Honored Helliarch on Hypex





Canada

nosferatu1001 wrote:IdentityZero - that was in response to "GK dont have any counter to monoliths"

They have more than enough. DK, psyriflemen and S10 TH do that.


Yeah, the individual who posted that should have been in another topic. xD This has nothing to do with Necrons and oh man, how bad can someone be to claim GK have no counter to Monolith... look... at...the...codex...
   
Made in us
Krazed Killa Kan






South NJ/Philly

Looking at it now, there is no reason to play Codex SM. BA, SW, and GK's do everything better for nearly the same cost.

I've been thinking of making that Custom Chapter army that can proxy as anything Marine like, should be nice at least 2 Codex's a year to play with.
   
 
Forum Index » 40K General Discussion
Go to: