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Wanted to try a little Coven list out. I will be using some controversial units. Let me know what you guys think.

HQ

Haemon w/ WWP, VB- 90
Haemon w/ WWP, VB- 90

EL

x7 Mandrakes- 105
x7 Mandrakes- 105

TR

x4 Wracks, Venom w/ x2 SC- 115
x4 Wracks, Venom w/ x2 SC- 115
x5 Wracks w/ LG- 60

FST

x5 Scourge w/ x2 HWB- 130
x5 Scourge w/ x2 HWB- 130

HVY

Cronos w/ Spirit Vortex- 100
Cronos w/ Spirit Vortex- 100
Talos w/ HL- 110

Total 1250

Now before anyone says OMFG!!!!! Mandrakes!!!! What a F***in idiot!!! Just be calm. I have actually done extensive play testing on them. They work great in small games. If i had more points I would have included the Nightfiend. He is almost essential with the LD boost and +1A. They are unexpected in low games and alot of people dont know how to handle them. People cannot usually bring as many units as DE can in such low points. If they try, they are usually small units. These would be units that Mandrakes can kill. Mandrakes work, but only at 1500 points and under. They cannot bring enough firepower to make a dent in high point games. They excell in these low point games for the reasons already stated. They work, do not dismiss them without even trying them. I wont even say to use them because " wow the models are so sweet, i just want to see them on the table." NO! Not an argument you will ever see me use.

Now to the list as a whole. The Mandrakes Scout or Outflank and harass those Long Fangs, Blob squads, Scouts, etc. and cause havoc. They have enough stay in them to do so which will help the WWP wielding Haemons in their Venoms to move up faster and avoid the fire. The Cronos are there to help with Pain token distribution. They can come out of the portal firing the Vortex and racking up the PT's. They are strong enough to kill tanks as well in CC. The Talos has a HL to help with AT duty and can of course wreck face in CC. The Scourge can either jump through the WWP or fly around and immobilize tanks from relative distance. They would help lead the Venoms up as well. More than likely they will come through the WWP as well. 5 man Wrack squad can stay at the home obj or come through the WWP and claim one, depending on game.

I believe i have plenty of AI with the SC's and the Scourge. I have CC with the Cronos and Talos. The Mandrakes can even hit rear armor being Str 4 and 3A on the charge. Let me know what you think. I havent played Mandrakes in this type of list yet because i hadnt finished my Venoms or Cronos.

This list is meant to play with my opponents mind and make decisions and playing off of what i decide. My main question is whether I should use two WWP Haemon. One seems to be enough, but can be focused on. I feel with two, my opponent would have to split fire and worry about where everyone is coming in. But, with two, thats a lot of points. I have a good amount of units coming through which is not a big deal, but 90 points is a large % in such a low point game. I will try it with two.

How would you like to fight this? Worried at all? I want criticism, but not the "Mandrakes suck so you should take them and replace them with TB with 4 Blasters." Obviously fully Mech lists would give trouble, but I dont think that people could bring a very good list with enough Mech that I couldnt handle.


-DElder

This looks like a fun list to play and play against. Love the fluff aspect, its almost all haemonculi stuff.

I don't think you have enough tank killing. Haywire blasters are very good at disabling tanks, but not good at all at killing tanks. 2/3 chance to hit, 1/6 to pen, 1/3 to kill... I'm not too good at statistics, but thats probably like a 5% chance of killing the tank.

If this was my list, I would give the scourges heat lances instead of haywire blasters. I would give the talos a haywire blaster instead of a heat lance, and I would replace one of the cronos with another talos with a haywire blaster. Heat lances are not that great on the talos because its really only good at 9 inches and the talos is slow. Scourges are quick and can even deep strike to get within the 9in. Also, having 2 cronos in such a small game is probably superfluous.

Not sold on the 5 wracks as a objective claimer. Maybe drop 1 squad of mandrakes and get a warrior squad with a dark lance to sit on your objective.

Also, might want to hold off on building your own venoms and chronos, because we will almost certainly be getting models for them in June. GW models are getting better and better and I know these will be stunning kits, and something in my gut tells me they will be up for advanced order very soon

See I like the HWB on the Scourge for the opposite reasons above. If I do start with them on the table, they can disable them in time for the squads coming through the WWP. The Talos coming through the WWP will most likely be within 9'' to utilize the HL. Also with the Scourge disabling the tanks the Talos and Cronos will be able to hit more effectively on armor.

I know you said that two Cronos might be too much. But being able to spread the PTs around to the Mandrakes or the Talos or themselves would be awesome. FnP MCs running around? That'd be great!

Im currently just proxying Vypers and old Talos models as the Cronos and Venoms. I didnt want to build them because I knew they were coming out.

-DElder

I'm going to agree with Michelj on the heat lance's on the Scourge I like that better myself, though I get the feeling you want haywires to make sure you get some kind of hit on a Vehicle but in my mind if you are going to attack something with DE might as well hit it hard and go for the kill and Heat Lance is more that style. I think you might want to think about taking off your Heat Lance on the Talos and maybe go with Chain Flails, I say that only cause Heat Lance is 18" and if you really need to you could get into assault with a vehicle and still have more attacks perhaps with the extra D6 for high value. If there was a problem with range I think Scourge could handle that and leave closer things too the Talos maybe but I do like Heat Lance on the tail myself.

I like this list quite a bit, I guess the only thing I feel off about is the size number in squads but... with no experience in this lay out and parasite engine's as I'm sure your plan is with them mostly to support tokens then this could help in survivability but what about target saturation? I think that might be an issue. I'd love to see Grotesque in this list too but that's up to you and I can see with how you've made your list you've squeezed everything down pretty well and Grotesque would be too much of a point sink so cheers to your building.

I'm also interested in your data on mandrakes if you have any statistic's or thoughts you've come over I would love to see your results if you are willing to share always open to new idea's working on Hellion Stun Claw up's and down's myself at the moment. If you lean towards mandrakes have you considered fielding Kheradruakh? the special character mandrake might be interesting if you have annoying independent problems.

Question 1 : Do you plan to field Mandrakes odd like at times within 12" of parasite engine's for easier token gain for there blast ability?
Question 2 : Why two Webway Portals? Even with Objective's I'd just go for the throat.
Question 3 : Thought about dropping squad of 5 Wrecks going raider's on the other two and filling out 2 squads of 9 with a Haemonculi each?

I think the list is pretty solid it will be very dependent on your parasite engine placement not as much as your Webway Portal placement since you have two, I think two is a bit much. Other then that I think its just squad size that will give you issues you seem really light but the good thing is your attacking fairly fast with Webway Portal and the heavy support section if placed right can really hinder a lot of units. If I was playing this myself all the time I would worry bout Horde armies more then anything but I would relay on Scourge to handle 30 man mobs assault 3 carbine's are nice for this. I think if it was me I would drop one Webway Portal and push up the foot Wrack's squad up to 10 man with 2x LG's... That way you have some kinda high wound pool squad. But nice list...

-Sincerely Viri

I would love to put Chain Flails on the Talos. Unfortunately, I could not find the points. I tried to get the most out of everything that i could.

I use the Scourge to disable the tanks. If I can stop them from shooting and moving, I would consider that a win for the turn. The following turn, the Talos and Cronos should pop up and hopefully kill them for me. I do not have the HWB to destroy tanks. If they do, thatd be awesome. But that is not the goal.

I know the number of men in the squad is low. I am hoping that 3 MC's would help with that. Plus all the troops have FnP. I would have to rely on the FnP and the ability to Stun or Immobilize the tanks.

The Cronos will be comign through the WWP. The Mandrakes will be Outflanking or Scouting. I wont deploy them next to ach other unless that is the most advantageous set up. But, coming through the WWP and blasting things with the Vortex or killing smaller squads in CC will be able to spread the PTs to Mandrakes or themselves.

With Mandrakes, I have found that 7 strong with a Nightfiend are the most effective. They still bring 22 attacks on the charge and the cost doesnt break the bank. 115 points for 22 attacks at strength 4. They have a 5+ invuln which helps in CC. No grenades sucks, and I think GW really dropped the ball with that. But, They will live and can still make a dent. If anything they will tie up the unit they are with for 2+ rounds. Imagine a SW player with no LFs or a IG player with no Heavy Weapon teams. I have had them kill a 6 man LF squad multiple times, and fight through blob squads and Scouts. The Nightfiend is there for he LD boost. You may not win combat all the time, but you wont flee. This is great for keeping the unit they are attacking in CC. Even if the Mandrakes do not kill the unit they are in CC with but tie them up for the 2 or 3 rounds, they make their points back by allowing the rest of my army to move up the field. They are a good unit and have their place in the codex. People are so quick to write them off because they have no PWs or no Grenades to assault with. Roll with it. Adapt. They work. Also, I find you almost need to run them in pairs. Two messes with peoples heads a lot more than just the one. I commonly attack the same unit with both squads to ensure one of them get the PT and Baleblast. If they get it, look out. They instantly become GREAT units. But, like I said above, they work only in 1500 points and below. With higher games you need more Raiders or Venoms. You need units to kill, not to stall. In these smaller point games they can effectively knock units out of the whole game. They are great in games like this.

That was a long explanation, PM if you have any other questions.

With the Head Hunter, I have not play tested him yet. I need to think about him some more and how I could use him. Right now, he is a big toss up. I dont want to write him off like others do. I will let you know though.

I think 2 WWPs could be overkill, but with 2, my opponents wont know where my army is coming from. It gives me options and keeps my opponents on their toes. If I do find 2 is too much I will cut one out and fill in the army accordingly.

With hordes I am really not worried that much. With the Scourge and the Venoms I think I can be fine. I can use the Talos and Cronos to soak up wounds. Plus I do have a couple templates in there to do some work on them.

I am really excited to run this list. I really think it has potential. Keep the criticisms coming tho! I really enjoy them!

-DElder

The heat lance is really only effective within 9in, but if your talos is within 6in it can charge, so the heat lance on it really only adds 3in to its tank killing... I see the appeal because a twin linked HL is a lot of fun, but for the same price you could get a twin linked HB and a twin linked liquifier, or chain flails I see you're point about stalling vehicles in small games, but I really think some scourge heat lances would give your army a nice punch. Maybe you could give your scourge squads 1 HB and 1 HL?

Would you guys mind looking at a DE list I made? Posted it twice today and no one has commented :( http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/363944.page

OMFG!!!!! Mandrakes!!!! What a F***in idiot!!!

They are unexpected in low games and alot of people dont know how to handle them.

With all due respect I think this speaks more for the people you're playing than it does for how good the Mandrakes are(n't)

My main question is whether I should use two WWP Haemon. One seems to be enough, but can be focused on. I feel with two, my opponent would have to split fire and worry about where everyone is coming in. But, with two, thats a lot of points. I have a good amount of units coming through which is not a big deal, but 90 points is a large % in such a low point game. I will try it with two.

Personally I see WWP as not optimal (I'm working on it but haven't had a great breakthrough yet). I do see it as an immense risk to only field one, because even at 1250 a decent list should be capable of killing at least one Venom and having a fair go at killing the Haemon's squad as well. Even if they don't kill the squad, what happens if you whiff a morale check after a few casualties? Or just end up pinned after your vehicle goes boom? There's so much that can go wrong if the enemy gets the first round of fire - and that's what that second WWP carrier is all about - covering your arse. If you get first turn than the 2nd portal becomes one you can drop on Turn 2 to allow your units even more control of where they come out. Either way 2 portals is a smarter bet - and this comes from when portals were 50 points each, not the bargain basement portals we have now.

How would you like to fight this? Worried at all? I want criticism, but not the "Mandrakes suck so you should take them and replace them with TB with 4 Blasters." Obviously fully Mech lists would give trouble, but I dont think that people could bring a very good list with enough Mech that I couldnt handle.

My all mech DE list at 1250 I think would shred you quite handily. I think mech or footsloggin Orks would be a maor problem too. You could probably do okay vs. most Marine builds, but you're fooling yourself if you think mech doesn't happen at 1250 - anything under 1000...maybe, anything 1000+ there's plenty of points for mech. Hell, I go all mech with DE at 500. By the sheer fact you're admitting mech is an issue means you're accepting this list isn't for competitive tourney play. I'm not sure what you're hoping to do if you're accepting that, I offered advice to the list below with the mind of trying to aim for at least semi-competitive tourney play.

DE Elder wrote:Haemon w/ WWP, VB- 90
Haemon w/ WWP, VB- 90

Fine.

x7 Mandrakes- 105
x7 Mandrakes- 105

You seem very set on these. I personally think there are better ways to spend points, but as long as you aim them at Long Fangs or other tiny shooting squads you'll do okay. I will point out in your Long Fang example you're functionally sending 7 Space Wolves with no grenades and worse armor to go fight 5 Space Wolves who'll likely swing first and gain bonus attacks from the charge. I accept they can potentially win...I don't see that I'm overlooking a brilliant tactical option in not believing they're viable for that trick alone.

x4 Wracks, Venom w/ x2 SC- 115
x4 Wracks, Venom w/ x2 SC- 115
x5 Wracks w/ LG- 60

These are pretty decent, the catch is that they are dedicated anti-infantry...so are your Heavy slots really, and the HQs, and the Elite slots. Your anti armor is basically just a single heat lance, a pair of haywire blasters, and any enemy dumb enough to let his armor be in assault range (which, lets face it - if it's in assault range and is a transport he's either an idiot or has already dropped off his payload, and if it's in assault range and is a shooting vehicle he's probably either an idiot or has intentionally moved the thing there and you're needing 6+ to hit it, meh.)
The third unit of Wracks feels a little bit tacked on

x5 Scourge w/ x2 HWB- 130
x5 Scourge w/ x2 HWB- 130

I look at these and what I see are slots and points that could probably be better spent on Troops/Elites in Raiders with Blasters. They do have a very nice use to them, but the risk of timing is going to be dangerous because they need to try and coordinate stunning up vehicles for your MCs to rip up.

Cronos w/ Spirit Vortex- 100
Cronos w/ Spirit Vortex- 100

Scourges will not really benefit from pain tokens.
2 of your Wrack squads are already starting with 2, and generally speaking that 3rd token is kinda meh in my mind.
By the time the Cronos shows up and gets to something your Mandrakes should either already have FNP or are probably dead.
So basically the Cronos is there to help give pain tokens to itself and the Talos? (and who isn't going to be killing a Talos/Cronos with a powerfist or anti-tank weaponry that will ignore FNP anyway...)

I really don't like these in the list because they do not help your gameplan. What is the precious thing that will really need pain tokens? I don't see it, and it's not even like you have that many units in this army, and for some reason you need two of these?
I personally think you'd do better scrapping both, buying up a 2nd Talos, and using the other points somewhere else (you could beef up that random Wrack squad so at least you're dumping out a big mob of Wracks. Frankly I might even use the points to upgrade one of the Venom Wrack squads to a Raider with Grots in it - this will increase your anti-tank via the dark lance, increase your Str 5 charge vs. tanks (though they don't get MC bonuses, I know - but they'll generate an impressive amount of attacks that will at least lock down vehicles and grind them to death), and give you a solid beatstick unit to lock down things. Other than that I might use the points to switch some Venoms to Raiders.

Talos w/ HL- 110

Fine with this, neutral on the heat lance but considering the rest of your list it's a decent investment.

There is no doubt a better use for the points on Mandrakes. I could definately use the 210 points on something much more cost effective. However, once I do that, I will change other things and it will end up looking like all the other typical lists. This list isnt meant to be UBER COMPETITIVE!!! RAWRRRRRR!!!! Could this be competitive? Yes I think so, no codex on hand, but some changes could be made to help it.

The Cronos are there for the Pain Tokens. Yes, most people will be pointing Lascannons and MM's at them. But, in assault the odd wound from a Tac squad that isnt a PF will almost be negated. Small arms fire will also be close to zero wounds. Also, FnP on the Scourge will help immensly. They already will get a save against the average gun (Str 4 AP 5) because of the 4+ AS. Will FnP it will almost double their survivability. Two may be a bit much, but I think running two of them is worth it.

I do need more troops. And you are right, I did throw in the last 5 Wracks. I know more troops would be better than Mandrakes and 2 Cronos and etc. But 2 are mounted, and one can arrive via WWP or sit on a home objective. They are small squads but they are the most resilient that we can field.

The Scourge are doing precisely what you said. They are timing their attacks by stunning or shaking vehicles so the Talos and Cronos can come through and eat them in CC. If a vehicle didnt move the previous turn, I wont be hitting on 6's.

With people being dumb in their placement, I would answer that it would be tougher for them to avoid the portals all together. With one, you can avoid it. With two I can force you to go to the middle of the field to avoid it. If you want to send everything at one portal, then I will send everything through that one or the other to flank you.

Yes it lacks mech punching power. DE is really the only army that can shove 6 or 7 tanks in to make it difficult to destroy. With IG, they may shove some in, but they are slow and wont pose as big of a problem. Do I think a fully mech DE list would kill this? I would hope so. If not, I either rolled ungodly or I was play an incompetent player.

With hordes I really dont see this being a problem. Against Nids I have a good amount of Poison weaponry and can range them. Use the MC's to tackle theirs and counter assault. With Orks, they would have to make a conscios effort to shove as many boyz in as possible to make it difficult I think. I have the 3 templates I can drop and the poison weaponry will dwindle them down before they hit. Target priority is all it is.

Do I think this could go to a tourny and kill everyone? No
Could I compete in most games? Yes
Do I think it will do a lot better than you think? Yes

I respect the criticism and who it is coming from. But I really think a lot of people under estimate how well this will do with all the parts together. I think most people will agree that your lists need synergy. You cant just throw in all the best units, throw some dice down, and win. Against a competent person, that just will not work. I am using specific units to fill a specific roll in this army.

Granted, I could be over confident in this army and everything could go to gak. It has happened before. I have not play tested Cronos yet so I may change my mind on them. Thor I really appreciate you even taking the time to write on the army.

-DElder

DE Elder wrote:The Cronos are there for the Pain Tokens. Yes, most people will be pointing Lascannons and MM's at them. But, in assault the odd wound from a Tac squad that isnt a PF will almost be negated. Small arms fire will also be close to zero wounds. Also, FnP on the Scourge will help immensly. They already will get a save against the average gun (Str 4 AP 5) because of the 4+ AS. Will FnP it will almost double their survivability. Two may be a bit much, but I think running two of them is worth it.

Space Marines will hit you on a 4+, and wound you on a 6+ - you'll then have a 3+ armor save. Yeah...FNP will reduce the number of wounds you take by half. But you really won't be taking many at all over the course of a game. Is the amount of those wounds incoming worth fielding 2 Cronos for? And the gain to the Scourges...eh, yeah, sure? They'll be a touch tougher to kill - I don't see that as helping to justify the Cronos expense.

Yes it lacks mech punching power. DE is really the only army that can shove 6 or 7 tanks in to make it difficult to destroy.

I don't think they need 6-7 to make it difficult for your army. 4-5 would be terrible as well. At 1250 landraiders show up. At 1250 with my Orks I run a multiple battlewagon list.

The rest I'll spare you my response to. Good luck with the list, I hope you avoid any mech lists when playing competitively. I think it's wise to playtest a unit a bit before you start to believe it will serve as a force multiplier. I'm happy you're really stoked by how this list will work.

If I switch both Cronos out for another Talos with a HL I'll have 90 points to play with. I could then up the Wracks to 10 men with 2 liquifyers. This would leave me with 40 points. Throw Chain Flails on both Talos leaves me 30 points.
Or I could give the small Wrack squad a Raider to help with AT duties and use the rest of the points to fill the rest of the squad

As far as Landraiders and Battlewagons go, I would rather have people bring those. They are slow vehicles and will get munched by the Talos. They take up lots of points which means the army will be smaller. So on that point Thor, bring on the Landraiders and the Battlewagons. It will hurt them more than me.

Maybe I am a little over confident about the Cronos. I think I will try the list out above, and if it proves to not work as well, I will switch them out for one Talos and other upgrades.

Would switch up the list to look something like this:

Haemon w/ WWP, VB- 90
Haemon w/ WWP, VB- 90

x7 Mandrakes- 105
x7 Mandrakes- 105

x4 Wracks, Venom w/ x2 SC- 115
x4 Wracks, Venom w/ x2 SC- 115
x6 Wracks w/ LG- 70
x6 Wracks w/ LG- 70

x5 Scourge w/ x2 HWB- 130
x5 Scourge w/ x2 HWB- 130

Talos w/ HL, CF- 115
Talos w/ HL, CF- 115

That is more bodies on the ground. I went against using a Raider. Went against the WWP theme I wanted to go with. So now I have two smallish Wracks with LG's. Better than the above list?

-DElder