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Howdy.

I am asking where, specifically in the rules or FAQ, the rule, or exception, is that allows infantry in an open top fast skimmer ( DE raider) to shoot their weapons, excluding heavy weapons, when the vehcile moves at cruising speed ( more than 6' up to 12".

I have dug through my rule books, but I can't locate any exception to the normal rules for vehicles and movement and infantry shooting from that said vehicle.

Thanks for helping. I'm starting to get frustrated in looking and not finding one way or the other.

ummm......

They Can't?

although...

Some people do get confused with the Splinter Rifles being "Mounted" onto Dark Eldar Raiders counting as Defensive Weapons...
So that may be who your playing. Someone confused with that Rule...

I believe they can move up to 12" but not past and fire 1 main weapon (and defensive ones) because they have the "Fast" rule.

I think he means the Guys on top of the Radier.

I.E. The Warriors?

I don't have my BRB with me at work but I think it would be in the open-topped section of the vehicle rules. I believe they are still able to shoot (or disembark and assualt) from an open-topped that's moved less then 'Flat Out' distances.

6" = radier can shoot and warriors can shoot
12" = Radier Can shoot and Warriors can get out, shoot and/or Assualt
18+" = Your Screwed

Biotox wrote:I don't have my BRB with me at work but I think it would be in the open-topped section of the vehicle rules. I believe they are still able to shoot (or disembark and assualt) from an open-topped that's moved less then 'Flat Out' distances.

Incorrect, there is nothing in the game that allows passengers to fire from any vehicle (fast, skimmer, open-topped, or any other kind) that has moved over 6". They may still disembark and fire if the vehicle has not moved flat-out, and assault if the vehicle is open-topped.

Yup, being Fast alters the distance the vehicle can move and still fire its weapons. It has no effect on the passengers' ability (or lack thereof) to fire theirs.

Bloodhorror wrote:6" = radier can shoot and warriors can shoot
12" = Radier Can shoot and Warriors can get out, shoot and/or Assualt
18+" = Your Screwed

This is correct. Except for the "your" part.

It's under the transport section, Pg66: "Models firing from a vehicle count as moving if the vehicle moves, and may not fire at all if the vehicle moved at Cruising speed that turn."

Except for the "your" part???


Confused...

Bloodhorror wrote:Except for the "your" part???

He was picking on your spelling.

Should have been "you're"*; "your" is not the correct word given the context.

*to whit: you are, or you're, screwed.

Doesn't the "fast" vehicle rules make the vehicle go at combat speed from 1"-12"? and only at cruising speed if higher?

If it is the case, wouldn't the DE get to shoot their blasters at 12"? (if not, then I got screwed by my some trueborns yesterday night...)

Not at all(not anywhere near).

Flat out is treated as regular vehicle Cruising speed, that is all.

Fast vehicle(themselves) always fire as if moving 1 step slower(Combat=stationary, Cruising=combat, Flat-out=Cruising), but again that is only the Fast vehicle itself not any of its transport contents.

gorium wrote:Doesn't the "fast" vehicle rules make the vehicle go at combat speed from 1"-12"? and only at cruising speed if higher?

If it is the case, wouldn't the DE get to shoot their blasters at 12"? (if not, then I got screwed by my some trueborns yesterday night...)

Nope.

Regular vehicles have two speeds: Combat or Cruising.
Fast vehicles have three: Combat, Cruising or Flat-Out.

The only reason our Raiders, Ravagers, etc. can shoot all their guns as if they've moved at cruising speed while going 12" is because they have the Aerial Assault rule.

So, yeah, Venoms with Trueborn can only go 6" if the Trueborn are to shoot.

In BRB on page 70 in 'FAST VEHICLES FIRING' 3rd paragraph is says:

fast vehicles that move at cruising speed may fire a single weapon (plus all defensive weapons, just like other types of vehicles moving at combat speed)

In BRB on page 66 in 'FIRE POINTS'

Models firing from a vehicle count as moving if the vehicle moves, and may not fire at all if the vehicle moved at Cruising speed that turn.

So, wouldn't a 'Fast' vehicle count Cruising speed as Combat speed when it comes to firing? Wouldn't that allow the units inside to shoot their weapons too? I figured that was the point of the vehicle being 'Fast.'

NO. The *Vehicle itself* gets to shoot one speed lower, however NOTHING states the passengers get to shoot as if the vehicle were moving one speed lower.

All page 66 tells you is that passengers count as moving if the vehicle moves.

Biotox wrote:So, wouldn't a 'Fast' vehicle count Cruising speed as Combat speed when it comes to firing?

For the purposes of the vehicle firing its weapons, yes, that is essentially the case.

Wouldn't that allow the units inside to shoot their weapons too?

No. The vehicle fires as if it was moving at Combat speed. The unit inside is a separate unit. No rule exists that allows anything other than the Fast vehicle itself to shoot as if it was moving at Combat speed.

Guys, this is a fairly common question. It's come up hundreds of times on this board, and I'm sure on every other 40k board.

Here is the breakdown:

Vehicle doesn't move: Passengers can shoot and count as not moving. Vehicle can shoot all non-ordinance weapons or one ordinance weapon. Passengers may disembark and may launch an assault.

Vehicle moved 0-6": Passengers can shoot but count as moving. Non-fast vehicles can shoot one non-ordinance weapon and defensive weapons or one ordinance weapon. Fast vehicles can shoot all non-ordinance weapons or one ordinance weapon. Passengers may disembark. Passengers may not launch an assault unless the vehicle is open-topped or has another rule allowing them to.

Vehicle moved 6-12": Passengers cannot shoot. Non-fast vehicles cannot shoot. Fast vehicles can shoot one non-ordinance weapon and defensive weapons or one ordinance weapon. Passengers may disembark. Passengers may not launch an assault unless the vehicle is open-topped or has another rule allowing them to. Note: Passengers can disembark, and once they do they can fire. But, they cannot fire if they stay on the transport.

Vehicle moved 13-24": Passengers cannot shoot. Non-fast vehicles cannot go this fast. Fast vehicles cannot shoot. Passengers cannot disembark.

it seems to me that the question was not about wether skimmers and such can fire at what speed, it concerns mainly the troops they may carry and wether they can shoot, not counting heavy weapons that troop may have.

So far the majority say No. As I see it would roughly translate to the same rules as if the troops were on foot. Move X distance and they can shoot normaly, not counting any heavy weapon. Move X+ and treat them as if they were running and they can not shoot.

Thats what I see this coming down to.

Now, the flip side as I personally see it and would believe:

Open topped vehicles, vehicales with fire points provide a stable platform for the troops inside while the vehicle is moving. Thus technially they could shoot since the troops themselves are not the ones moving, the vehicle is.

As I mentioned in another post, rules are subject to change and interpitation between the players involved in the game.

CinderBlack wrote:Now, the flip side as I personally see it and would believe:

Open topped vehicles, vehicales with fire points provide a stable platform for the troops inside while the vehicle is moving. Thus technially they could shoot since the troops themselves are not the ones moving, the vehicle is.

As I mentioned in another post, rules are subject to change and interpitation between the players involved in the game.

The bolded section is clearly wrong. The rules are 100% clear on this issue. There's no room for "interpretation".

If you want to make a house rule in this situation and your opponent agrees, that's fine. But, that's not the actual rule in 40k.

CinderBlack wrote:Open topped vehicles, vehicales with fire points provide a stable platform for the troops inside while the vehicle is moving. Thus technially they could shoot since the troops themselves are not the ones moving, the vehicle is.

There is no 'technically' about this interpretation, since the rules specifically state that the models also count as moving.

Mabye he got his rules mixed up, for example, until reading this thread I thought I could move 12 and still have the passengers shoot aka my burna boyz. But I am thinking of 3rd and 4th ed rules, and have thus made a boo boo.

As far as i heard only monoliths can shoot after moving their full speed

Defiler37 wrote:As far as i heard only monoliths can shoot after moving their full speed

Which, oddly enough is 6"

Defiler37 wrote:As far as i heard only monoliths can shoot after moving their full speed

And most (if not all) Tau vehicles, a ton of things in Apoc, Dreads, Soul Grinder, Defiler, War Walker, Sentinel, Deff Dread, Killa Kans, and I'm sure others.

Defiler - or DE Ravagers. Or ALL Walkers.

This isnt about the *vehicles* ability to fire, but passengers. And passengers, while embarked, CANNOT fire if the vehicle moves over 6".

The rules are perfectly clear.

Unlike in 3rd and 4th edition, in 5th edition if you want to shoot out you have to accept moving at a slower speed, which gives you a smaller threat range and makes it easier to assault the transport. You can drive up to 12", still get OUT and shoot, but doing so exposes your unit to danger. It's a tactical tradeoff; it's entirely intentional and entirely clear in the rues.

Mannahnin wrote:it's entirely intentional and entirely clear in the rues.

I'll agree with "entirely clear". But, I'm not so sure that it was "entirely intentional".

With each new codex that comes out, I'm getting more and more convinced GW uses the 1000 monkeys at 1000 typewriters approach to rule-writing.

GW certainly deserves some ribbing, though they've gotten progressively better and better over the years.

It is entirely intentional, for exactly the reasons I broke down. It was a deliberate change from 4th to 5th.