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Reclusiarch w/ Hand Flamer= 140


Sanguinary Priest w/ Power Weapon on Bike= 100
Sanguinary Priest w/ Power Weapon on Bike= 100
Sanguinary Priest w/ Power Weapon on Bike= 100


10 Man Assault Squad w/ Power Weapon+ 2x Meltas in Rhino w/ Extra Armour= 255
10 Man Assault Squad w/ Power Weapon+ 2x Meltas in Rhino w/ Extra Armour= 255
10 Man Death Company w/ 2x Hand Flamer and 5x Power Weapons in Redeemer w/ Extra Armour= 550


Attack Bike x3 w/ Multi Melta= 150
Attack Bike x3 w/ Multi Melta= 150
Attack Bike x3 w/ Multi Melta= 150


Vindicator w/ Siege Shield+ Storm Bolter+ Extra Armour= 180
Vindicator w/ Siege Shield+ Storm Bolter+ Extra Armour= 180
Vindicator w/ Siege Shield+ Storm Bolter+ Extra Armour= 180

Total= 2490


The list is based around the Bikes and Vindicators, the rest is an afterthought. Most of the people in the local store beleive this is a well rounded list based around fast movement, but I'm not sure and would like more opinions.

Please don't comment on what the people in the store has said, it is their opinion.

Whilst not a BA player, here are my suggestions:

- I'd recommend dropping 2 of the Death Company's Power Weapons and replacing them with Power Fists; this means your 450+pts unit won't get stuck on a Dreadnought, the hand flamers don't really add much either IMHO.

- I don't believe the stormbolters (possibly not the EA either) are need on the vindi's; they'll add little and if the demolisher cannon is destroyed then you'd be ramming/tank shocking instead.

- I'd also recommend dropping the EA on the rhino's; they significantly increase the cost of an otherwise pretty cheap vehicle and don't add that much IMHO.

- I'd recommend dropping the attack bikes to 2 man squads; I believe 3 multimeltas to be a bit of a waste on a single target each. Furthermore, I'd be really unsure about the Priests on bikes; there's few wounds for them to be able to take before they're splatted; making your priests fairly easy (and expensive) targets. I can see why you're using them like that, but I also don't think it'd work. Hell, in such a list, you may even consider few-to-no priests, maybe just the one in the Death Company??!!

- Finally, you're very light on scoring units; I'd recommend any points you can save goes towards at least one more assault squad; this would provide you with more bodies, more tanks, more melta and more importantly, more scoring units.


I think at the heart, it's a good list and idea, however I do also think there are a few areas it could be improved. Good luck.

Thank you for the comment:

I shall explain to you that the Priest gives all friendly units within 6" Furious Charge and FNP, Death Company get these standard. I may lose the Power Weapon on the Priests to make them cheaper, but I like to charge with my Bikes. 2 Death Company gain Power Fists and swap the Bolt Pistol for a Bolter (Relentless), making me 10pts over. I will lose all Hand Flamers putting me to 2480pts.

I'm unsure about what to do about the EA. I like moving when I can't shoot, even just to move out of the way. Also if they are Stunned on the first turn they still get to move which can mean a lot at 18". For both the Vindi's and the Rhino's. The Storm Bolter is a Defensive Weapon and if they try to wreck it by Immobilising and Destroying Weapons it is harder. I'll think on these.

What about the Redeemer?

Oh yeah, I'm aware how Priests work, my thinking was that even with FNP, your priests/bikes are easy targets as they'll have few wounds and very vulnerable to missiles etc. Whilst he wouldn't provide an immediate bonus to the DC themselves, a priest in the LR would be safer than a biker and could still benefit those within 6".

I can understand your reluctance on the rhinos; from my usual perspective they're 35pts, so you know. I still stand by that idea though as I rarely see even BA rhinos with EA.

I'm fine with the LRR; I'm a big fan of the tank and it could work well alongside the Vindicators. It could do with a MM actually, but otherwise it's good.

However, I still stand by my point of reducing the biker squads and - in particular - getting another troop choice.

Nonetheless, you seem to know your army and ultimately playtesting is the best way to decide things, a weak army list that is known inside out is better than a strong one which the general has little experience with is the extreme of this point of view. Furthermore my BA knowledge is strictly from observation so there's not really any further input I can provide. Good luck man.

I think the Bikes still get FNP from S8 AP3 Missiles but shall look it up now. Bikes go down to 2 squads of 3 each (allows me to lose a Priest), LRR gains Multi Melta and an extra identical Assault Squad:

Reclusiarch= 130


Sanguinary Priest w/ Power Weapon on Bike= 100
Sanguinary Priest w/ Power Weapon on Bike= 100


10 Man Assault Squad w/ Power Weapon+ 2x Meltas in Rhino w/ Extra Armour= 255
10 Man Assault Squad w/ Power Weapon+ 2x Meltas in Rhino w/ Extra Armour= 255
10 Man Assault Squad w/ Power Weapon+ 2x Meltas in Rhino w/ Extra Armour= 255
10 Man Death Company w/ 3x Power Weapons and 2x Power Fist in Redeemer w/ Extra Armour+ Multi Melta= 560


Attack Bike x3 w/ Multi Melta= 150
Attack Bike x3 w/ Multi Melta= 150


Vindicator w/ Siege Shield+ Storm Bolter+ Extra Armour= 180
Vindicator w/ Siege Shield+ Storm Bolter+ Extra Armour= 180
Vindicator w/ Siege Shield+ Storm Bolter+ Extra Armour= 180

Total= 2495

I don't like this list very much. As I see it, you don't have enough models on the table for such a high point value. I'd be really worried about the Death Company ending up stranded on your side of the board. Putting Assault Squads in Rhinos is also a poor choice, in my opinion. Rhinos are not assault vehicles!

Really, I think Razorspam is the way to go. Consider how your army would do against the following:

HQ: Mephiston 250
HQ: Librarian with Shield and Blood Lance or Unleash Rage 100
EL: Furioso Librarian with Wings and Might of Heroes 175
EL: Furioso Librarian with Wings and Might of Heroes 175
TR: 5 Assault Marines with Meltagun, Power Fist, Las/Plas Razorback 190
TR: 5 Assault Marines with Meltagun, Power Fist, Las/Plas Razorback 190
TR: 5 Assault Marines with Meltagun, Power Fist, Las/Plas Razorback 190
TR: 5 Assault Marines with Flamer, Las/Plas Razorback 160
TR: 5 Assault Marines with Flamer, Las/Plas Razorback 160
TR: 5 Assault Marines with Flamer, Las/Plas Razorback 160
FA: Baal Predator with TL-AC 115
FA: Baal Predator with TL-AC 115
FA: Baal Predator with TL-AC 115
HS: Predator with Lascannon Sponsons 135
HS: Predator with Lascannon Sponsons 135
HS: Predator with Lascannon Sponsons 135
Total: 2500

You will lose about half the bikes on the first turn, even if you get to turboboost. The rest of your army isn't very long-ranged, and will be just ruined as it tries to close. You might have a chance if you go first and manage to keep the bikes around for more than 2 turns, but going second is pretty much GG.

MrE maybe a vindicator or 2 those are always a blast

MrEconomics wrote:I don't like this list very much. As I see it, you don't have enough models on the table for such a high point value. I'd be really worried about the Death Company ending up stranded on your side of the board. Putting Assault Squads in Rhinos is also a poor choice, in my opinion. Rhinos are not assault vehicles!

I agree with some of this (namely the few models part), although it's worth mentioning that if he's a skilled player then assault squads in rhinos can work well, as was proven by others during adepticon.

However, no offence Mr E, but you've just suggested that he ditches his entire list for arguably the most cookie-cutter and unfriendly list there is. Personally, I try to work around peoples lists and edit them, rather than just suggest that they use an entirely different list that uses none of the same units they originally intended and despite its competitiveness, is likely to be little fun to play with or against.

At MrEconomics: Keeping the Vindi's and Attack Bikes, what would you suggest?

Attack bikes are too weak and they can get beat down in combat speeders are much better more weapons and more mobility.

Vindis are awesome

phantommaster wrote:At MrEconomics: Keeping the Vindi's and Attack Bikes, what would you suggest?

OK, how about the following:

HQ: Mephiston 250
HQ: Librarian with Shield, Unleash Rage 100
EL: 1 Sanguinary Priest on Bike, 1 Sanguinary Priest 135
TR: 5x 5-man Assault Squads with Plasmagun, Meltabombs 875
TR: 5-man Assault Squad with Plasmagun 170
FA: 3x 3 Assault Bikes with Multi-meltas 450
HS: 3 Vindicators with Extra Armor, Dozer Blade, Storm Bolter 525

Total: 2500

If you're going to field Attack Bikes, I'd take 3 squads to make sure some of them are alive to kill vehicles. I went with Plasmaguns in the Assault Squads for flexibility, since you have a lot of anti-vehicle anyway. I really think you need the Razorbacks to compliment the Vindicators. My opinion is that the number of vehicles in an army should be either 0 or "lots". I looked into taking 6 Rhino squads instead but it doesn't leave much room for anything else. It would be tough to even have Power Fists in the Rhino squads, which you would want.

If you want to get the second Priest on a Bike, I'd drop the Storm Bolters and 1 Meltabomb. The Storm Bolters are pretty questionable, so drop them if you can think of something better to do.

cowpow16 wrote:Attack bikes are too weak and they can get beat down in combat speeders are much better more weapons and more mobility.

Vindis are awesome

Speeders are too weak, an FNP bike is better IMO, plus Speeders are more expensive with Multi Melta's.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MrEconomics wrote:

phantommaster wrote:At MrEconomics: Keeping the Vindi's and Attack Bikes, what would you suggest?

OK, how about the following:

HQ: Mephiston 250
HQ: Librarian with Shield, Unleash Rage 100
EL: 1 Sanguinary Priest on Bike, 1 Sanguinary Priest 135
TR: 5x 5-man Assault Squads with Plasmagun, Meltabombs 875
TR: 5-man Assault Squad with Plasmagun 170
FA: 3x 3 Assault Bikes with Multi-meltas 450
HS: 3 Vindicators with Extra Armor, Dozer Blade, Storm Bolter 525

Total: 2500

Why Meph and the Librarian, I much prefer Reclusiarchs or Dante?

If you're going to field Attack Bikes, I'd take 3 squads to make sure some of them are alive to kill vehicles. I went with Plasmaguns in the Assault Squads for flexibility, since you have a lot of anti-vehicle anyway. I really think you need the Razorbacks to compliment the Vindicators. My opinion is that the number of vehicles in an army should be either 0 or "lots". I looked into taking 6 Rhino squads instead but it doesn't leave much room for anything else. It would be tough to even have Power Fists in the Rhino squads, which you would want.

If you want to get the second Priest on a Bike, I'd drop the Storm Bolters and 1 Meltabomb. The Storm Bolters are pretty questionable, so drop them if you can think of something better to do.

Here's the thing: Reclusiarchs suck. They really do. The only place where they are a good idea is with a Death Company, since you can re-roll to hit and to wound. Remember, a Librarian can take Unleash Rage, which lets you re-roll to hit. It is a psychic power, which is a disadvantage, but you can use it during any round of combat, which is a plus. Otherwise, all the Reclusiarch brings is a somewhat better profile, Fearless, and a 4+ invul. A Librarian has a better weapon, is cheaper, provides Psyker defense, and has a wealth of useful powers available. Really, there isn't much difference in CC, except for the save, and is the save worth 30 points, plus a loss of all the other Librarian stuff. Fearless is a double-edged sword, after all.

You might feel that the Reclusiarch is more reliable, since you don't have to roll for his powers, or because there is a lot of psyker defense in your local meta. The thing is, the Librarian only fails 1 time out of 12 normally, and pretty much any relevant psyker defense these days comes from another psyker. Whatever you lose in having a Farseer mucking up your roles can be made up for in using that hood to shut down her powers. Trust me, an Eldar player needs Doom and Fortune more than you need Shield or Unleash Rage.

As for Dante, he has his place, I guess, but it's pretty clear it isn't in a meched-up list. Mephiston, on the other hand, is a great counter-assault unit who can hide behind the armor wall and keep up with it. At lower points I think he's very optional, as 250 points can be tough to fit in. At 2500, though, he's really great, especially in a Mech list that can hide him.

When it comes down to it, from a purely competitive standpoint, there are only a few HQ choices that can ever be optimal:

-Reclusiarch in a list with DC, and where there aren't enough points to take something else for HQ and Lemartes or a regular Chaplain instead
-Dante in a Jump Infantry list. He better go with an Honor Guard with Meltaguns to leverage his no-scatter rule.
-Mephiston in a list that isn't going to use DoA
-Librarian (Any time, any place)

Anything else can be regarded as "For Fluff or Fun only". Yes, some lists require Astorath, but I'd hardly call massed DC competitive.

If you prefer a Reclusiarch because you like the model, or you don't have the funds to get a Librarian model, that's totally cool. However, you said this is a tournament list, so I'm assuming you want to win within the bounds of running an army you like. I actually think that the army I've recommended is pretty good and isn't exactly a cookie-cutter, due to the bikes.

MrE summed it up.

Speeders have armor and no one bothers to shoot at them ever.
It can get a cover save and bolters need 6s to glance.

Las guns also dont break them.