Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I am trying to pursuade my play group to allow me to play Eldar under these rules. We are competitive, but don't play tourneys. We only play each other. There are about 10 guys, but only 6 regulars. All the other guys play newer codex armys except me. Orks, IG, BA, SW, DE. I think Eldar needs an update, and I want to use these rules. I think these rules are balanced. I would like some feedback before I present this idea to my group.

Do you think this group of rules breaks Eldar, or are they pretty balanced?

EDIT - I AM UPDATING THESE RULES AS THE THREAD RUNS.

GENERAL
Star Cannons - strength 7
Shuriken Catapults – Range 18”

HQ
Phoenix Lords gain a 5+ invulnerable save and may designate one squad of their Aspect as a troop unit.
Eldritch Storm – cost reduced to 10 points.
Runes of Warding - 25 points (increase of 15)
Eldrad - 230 points (increase of 15)
Warlocks - Conceal – This Warlock's entire unit gains a 5+ cover save. Cover saves from units and terrain are improved by +1.

ELITE
Banshees - War Shout - Enemy must take an initiative test prior to the 1st round of combat. If it fails, the unit fights at WS 1 during that round.
Fire Dragons - lose fleet, gain 3+ armor save and increase in cost +2.
Wraithguard - 2nd firing mode - range 18" heavy 1.

TROOPS
Blade storm - Avenger Shuriken Catapults may act as assault 3 weapons or may gain the rending USR during this shooting phase. This unit may not make range attacks next turn.
Rangers - 3 pt cost reduction, (pathfinders follow suit)
Ranger Long rifle - changes to straight sniper rules, pathfinders rend on 5+
Support Weapon Platform Battery – Troop choice, 2 wounds, 3+ save, infantry unit.
Shadow Weaver gains the monofilament rule, +5 points.
Vibro Cannon - no cover saves.
Wasps are legal.

FAST
Warp Spiders – Surprise Assault – This unit rolls 1d6 to determine deep strike scatter.
Shining Spear’s – 5 point cost reduction, Hit and Run = 15 points
Vypers – 35 points Vyper vehicle upgrades: Holofields - 15 points, Star Engines - 10 points
Swooping Hawks – 2 point cost reduction Hawk Wings – (add) Hawks may roll to arrive from reserve on the 1st turn. They succeed on a 4+. Roll normally after that. Hawks roll 1d6 for scatter when they deploy via deep strike, Intercept - (add) This unit may assault the turn it deep strikes.
Hornets are legal.

HEAVY
Wraith Lords – 2nd weapon of the same type is no longer twin linked. Increase Attack stat to 3.
Dark Reapers - Fire Control - Exarch may target a seperate unit. Change Crack Shot to a unit ability that requires rerolls of cover saves (15 points)
Warp Hunter and Shadow Specters are legal.

I must say mate that you've definitely done some good balancing here! They all Look fine to me, my best mate plays Eldar and I Know he would love these changes!
Just a few things, first, I don't really like the fleet thing or the haywire nades penning on a 5+, thats put you different to the DE codex and seeing a, well they are technically the same, I think your DE friend might get a tad irratted and want the same thing I say keep those two out Also I think you should just add in a general -5 points to BL's arcoss the whole bored, as a DE player, we can spam DL and Blasters, but as you really have no way of doing that, I think everyone would appreciate the small amount taken off! I even think the price we pay is annoying! 20 is a lots more efficient Other then that everything looks pretty good and good luck with convincing your mates!

=I= White-Wolf wrote:I must say mate that you've definitely done some good balancing here! They all Look fine to me, my best mate plays Eldar and I Know he would love these changes!
Just a few things, first, I don't really like the fleet thing or the haywire nades penning on a 5+, thats put you different to the DE codex and seeing a, well they are technically the same, I think your DE friend might get a tad irratted and want the same thing.

Eldar and Dark Eldar don't live the same lifestyle. The DE drink more adult beverages, so the Eldar are in better shape, thus the run thing. Gamewise, Eldar need a higher probability of getting into melee when they decide to do it. DE don't have difficulty initiating assaults.

The across the board fleet upgrade is...overpowered. Specific units only, such as Banshees, should get it. Follow the "fleet for lighter armoured troops" idea from the whole dex

Mind war has a chance of one shotting HQs on a dice off? Hell no. Double wound at most, not D3

Starcannons should remain S6 - you're gaining a no-gets hot plasma weapon, which generally have -1S as a compensate.

Guide - by making that essentially doom but to-hit instead, you have just removed the primary balancing factor for eldar powers - to get both you have to keep your seer near the troops you want to buff. And, you've made guide more broken thna you can believe - so 3 lots of war walkers can all unless 24 rerolling hits and wounds each against one squad? No way in HELL is that balanced.

Avatar should remain Fearless. Eldar dont run away when the avatar is there. You're blatantly attempting to gain the benefits of fearless (90+% of the time) with none of the drawbacks.

Conceal - just call it Stealth OR a 5+ cover in the open, see GK book. Makes it easier by keeping the USR wording in there.

Warpspiders - their jump back isnt meant to be that certain. Keep it as it is.

Rangers - so, one of the best and most versatile (in terms of placement and usage in the game) troops choices out there gets cheaper? Um, no. And, I'd keept the current rules. Shows hthey are MUCH better snipers than the norm.

Shining spears - instead of calling them 2H weapons just use the Storm Shield wording - cannot gain bonus attacks from 2CCW. Mainly because lances arent 2H weapons, that would look odd!

In general not bad, but there are some horrid combos in there. I like you've mostly focussed on the under used entries though Id add something in for harlies.

Here are my impressions/suggestions

GENERAL
Fleet - Remove, very unnecessary. Modify War Shout if you want more fleet distance on Banshees
Star Cannons - Good (Note to others: Gets Hot! is mostly irrelevant, as the only non-vehicle units that can take Star Cannons are Weapon Platforms)
Shuriken Catapults - Good
Haywire - Unnecessary

HQ
Phoenix Lords - Good
Mind War - Unnecessary
Eldritch Storm - Good
Guide - Unnecessary
Runes of Warding - Good/keep in mind that Farseers cost a lot as it is, however
Eldrad - Unnecessary/decrease Farseer cost by 20 instead
Avatar - Good
Warlocks - Stealth USR with 5+ in the open (total)/reword to mention Stealth USR
Seer Council - Unnecessary

ELITE
Banshee War Shout - Still weak even if the enemy fails. Change to something useful
Fire Dragons - Unnecessary
Wraithguard - Good, but I can't see myself using that option ever

TROOPS
Dire Avengers Blade Storm - Unnecessary
Rangers - Good
Support Weapon - Bad/artillery units should never be Troops. Adding stats to platform is fine (give 2+ save, though), unit size change unnecessary
Shadow Weaver - make identical to Nightspinner instead
Vibro Cannon - Good
Wasps - Should be Fast Attack, not Troops (if you want vehicle troops, move War Walkers here instead)

FAST ATTACK
Warp Spiders - Deep Strike - Good. Warp Jump - Better to use current rules (2d6) and remove chance of losing models to the warp
Shining Spears - Cost changes - Good. Changes to laser lance - Bad/poorly conceived. The unit is already good at its job (kill and run away); it is just too expensive.
Vypers - Spirit Stones - Good. Other upgrades - Bad. Vypers don't need a mini-CTM or Stealth USR. Other vehicle upgrades should be available and cheaper (Star Engines, etc.)
Stooping Hawks - Hawk Wings/Intercept - Good/remove "if it did not shoot" (they have Assault weapons). Skyleap - Bad/current rules are better. Add first-turn reserve to Hawk Wings
Hornets - Good

HEAVY SUPPORT
Wraithlords - TL caveat removal - Good. 2nd Wraithsword - dislike the idea of a dual-wielding Wraithlord/good from rules standpoint
Dark Reapers - Good/rename Crack Shot (overlap with Fire Dragons)
Suggestion - Other Forgeworld stuff legal (Warp Hunter, Shadow Spectres)

I would like to see the Phoenix Lords unlock their aspects as troops, a la Beilal and Sammael for Deathwing and Ravenwing respectively. Hit and Run should also be something innate to the Shining Spears, rather than an upgrade (which would help leviate, or at least justify, the cost). As for Farseer powers, they should start with two chosen from the list and add on additional ones as upgrades (a la Rune Priests).

If normal Shuriken Catapults are 18" are Avenger Shuriken Catapults now 24"?

Other than that all these changes seem good to me.

Everyone does not get fleet. Eldar units that HAVE fleet get to roll 2d6 and pick. If they don't have fleet now, they don't get it.

Mind war can do 5+ wounds now. You get cover and invulnerable saves. I would be happy with d2 wounds and no cover saves.

I am trying to differentiate Starcannons. At S6 and with cover saves everywhere, they compare poorly to scatter lasers and shuriken cannons. A cost decrease is an idea, or AP1, but S7 gives the army something different.

My idea for guide is strong yes. I would be happy to extend the range and leave it as is. The Farseer powers fall into 2 catagories - Eldrad and Farseer. Farseers have to choose what to buy and what to use, thus Doom and Fortune win out. Eldrad on the other hand can abuse certain powers. I'd like to make Mind War, Guide, and Eldritch Storm better for standard Farseers, yet not be OP on Eldrad. Perhaps a further cost increase on Eldrad? Besides, I don't play Eldrad. Maybe that is an issue.

Warpspiders - their jump ought to be more certain than it is. How about roll 3d6 and choose 2, and eliminate being lost in the warp.

Rangers - are so fragile. Compare their cost to space marine scouts. The current rules for their rifles are clunky. They will be changed in any update. I am making them less lethal, and reducing their points.

The reason for the weird wording on conceal is I don't want jetbikes getting 2+ cover saves when they turboboost.

Why should their jump be more reliable? They're popping through the warp, which is a bad idea for them. And they get to do this IN ADDITION to shooting. They are not an underpowered unit, so dont really need making better...

They're fragile, apart from the 2+ cover save, infiltrate and scout to make sure they get to where they need to. Oh, and they ignore terrain for when they do want to move around. The rules arent that clunky.

ZeroSamurai wrote:If normal Shuriken Catapults are 18" are Avenger Shuriken Catapults now 24"?

Other than that all these changes seem good to me.

The change to Bladestorm is compensation for the 18" range on the Shuriken Catapult.

Fluff - DA's can increase the power of the ASC to create rending shots, or they can increase the rate of fire. In either case, it takes time for the weapon to reset.

24" is OP for the ASC.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Banshees - Perhaps WS1 if they fail the initiative test.

Fire Dragons - They have fleet, but when will they ever use it? They die because of their own weapons. So eliminate fleet, give them 3+, and up their cost. I know they are effective now, but they are suicide squads. Not very Eldarish. Perhaps increase the range of their weapons to 14".

Wasps are troops now.

Wraithlords have essentially 2 close combat weapons as it is, perhaps they should get +1 attack instead.

Wraithguard are slow. My effort is to get them into the fight. Perhaps a deep strike rule?

Support Weapons - I want them out of the crowded Heavy slot. Artillery rules make them too fragile. IG has heavy weapon teams as troops, why not us?

I think Wraithguard need something. They are not worth their points compared to what is out there.

Maybe their save could become invulnerable. They are Eldar's terminators after all.

I find the Wraithseer from FW to be quite intriguing.
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/New_Stuff/ELDAR-WRAITHSEER.html

Zakiriel wrote:I find the Wraithseer from FW to be quite intriguing.
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/New_Stuff/ELDAR-WRAITHSEER.html

Oh my Jeebus... sexy..

I'm confused.

Why do you think Eldar are unbalanced and need balancing? You're opening the door and firmly stepping through into the realm of "No longer playing 40k."

I don't mean to sound harsh, and I'm thankful that at least your list doesn't (now after 4 edits) have any ridiculously overpowered things at first glance....but the answer to not being able to play your codex competitively isn't to abandon it or change all the rules in your army, but to read, learn, solicit advice, and learn to create a more competitive Eldar army, or to use the units you have better.

I know several Eldar players who are virtually peerless on the battlefield. Having an old codex doesn't make it uncompetitive. My Necrons and the Dark Eldar I took around the country to participate in events before the new codex would beg to differ.

Dashofpepper wrote:I'm confused.

Why do you think Eldar are unbalanced and need balancing? You're opening the door and firmly stepping through into the realm of "No longer playing 40k."

I don't mean to sound harsh, and I'm thankful that at least your list doesn't (now after 4 edits) have any ridiculously overpowered things at first glance....but the answer to not being able to play your codex competitively isn't to abandon it or change all the rules in your army, but to read, learn, solicit advice, and learn to create a more competitive Eldar army, or to use the units you have better.

I know several Eldar players who are virtually peerless on the battlefield. Having an old codex doesn't make it uncompetitive. My Necrons and the Dark Eldar I took around the country to participate in events before the new codex would beg to differ.

As I have worked on this I have often felt that I should be spending my time getting better with the current codex rather than trying to rework it.

I got into playing Eldar because I wanted a 2nd army to my space marines. Then I started painting and really like the look of my army. Yet, I am primarilly a player, and want to be competitive. I am constantly irritated at the fragility of my army and difficulty in playing them vs. the blunt instruments of BA, Orks, SW, etc.

My frustration, supported by many players online, has led me to thinking of simple ways to try to make Eldar more versatile.

If you could be so courteous, please direct me to a list at the 2000 point level that these master Eldar players use. I need to learn how to play better. I have read tons of info online, but I still struggle.

Having played WARMACHINE for the past 5 years before switching to 40k 2 summers ago, I REALLY miss getting periodic updates to my army. There is Forgeworld I guess.

Seriously though, I would like to find some successful tournament players and see their Eldar lists.

As the list looks like at present, considering I haven't seen previous versions, it really looks worth playtesting.

There are a few changes I'd prefer, and the occasional one I don't agree with, but that's more something we can spend a few pages on in the Big Thread Mark 2™ discussing.

Storm Guardians are still red-headed. So to speak.

@ Dash: Eldar army is showing it's age, it's competitive and you can use it, but there are few options. While newer armies don't need to be streamlined to be competitive (it's just that some setups work better), the Eldar army does (most setups don't work at all, and there are entire units that have no application).

OP:

Mechdar is doing just fine. Seer Councils are regaining momentum as the meta shifts away from people using Nob bikers and appropriate counters. War-walker scatter laser spam is expecially suited to countering the light AV popular spam lists. There are even some killer footdar lists floating around.

Note the following; the *list* is a *part* of winning. My Necrons are not undefeated because I've mystically discovered something new about them that no one else has figured out.

1. Send a PM to Blackmoor. He is vicious with DE.

2. Send a PM to Mahu and ask him for the contact information of the two Eldar guys in his circle

That's a good start, and they can direct you to more folks in their circle.

Personally, I refuse to associate with Eldar, who are like the distasteful fairydust powerdering on a moldering cake that no one wanted. The entire universe would bow and worship the supreme mastery of Dark Eldar without question if not for their experiences with the simpering weaklings we're forced to call distant cousins. I mean, you lost an entire craftworld to a single tyranid. How can any intelligent race fear us when we're forced to share half a name with YOU?