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So im trying to decide what Ctan i really want for my army. The night binger has better stats but i feel like the deceiver has better abilities overall. So what do you guys think?

Thank you very much in advance
-E

This comes down to play style. They are both amazing and have great abilities. The deciever's ability to not get stuck in combat is it's saving grace as opponents can't just tarpit him. However not being able to ID thunderwolves or warbosses is a serious downside to the deciever.
On the otherhand the Nightbringer can push weaker hordes away. This is huge against orks as they try to rush forward and phase you out and you just blow them away from your lines.

It all comes down to what you feel is more useful to what you plan to do with the rest of your army.

My vote would go to the nightbringer. The Deciever has some nice rules in general, but in my opinion they are not really suited for a character of his type. The leaving combat ability is amazing if you're a destroyer or a warrior, but where does a C'tan want to be if not in combat?

The grand illusion rule is nice, but YMMV which means that you can't really plan a strategy around it working. You can use it to set up fire lanes and go for different objectives than the ones your opponent has set up to counter, but you're only garunteed to do it once.

The Nightbringer, on the other hand, is fairly reliable. Good number of attacks, horrfic Str, and a nice toughness to boot. Lightning arc is kind of redundant because your shooting phases will probably be spent running, but etheric tempest is amazing, letting him hack through the things that would usually tarpit him for ages pretty easily. Stick him behind a Monolith, and unleash him when you;re in range.

One thing I will say on the Decievers behalf is that he has better initiative. Normally, being a T8 star god and all, this is ok, but with all the force-weapon toting GKs about, the extra initiative might be valuable.

Even so, the Nightbringer is the one I would choose.

Depends on your list.

I personally like the deciever, cheaper and can do 99% of the things that the nightbringer can do. However I will say that i dont have to worry about TWC. Deciever will never get stuck in battles he does not want to be in and being able to pin things can be helpful.

I admit grand illusion is a YMMV kinda thing, but I do find it helpful, especially when you purposefully mis-deploy one unit, forcing the enemy to deploy against it, and then move the unit. Of course against vets/people who play against the list often will know what your are doing. But some people will get greedy which is so much fun!

deciever.

I use the Deceiver in my Necron army; he is quite superior to the Nightbringer. Of all his powers, Deceive and Misdirect are the only two particularly useful ones. I rarely use Grand Illusion - occasionally I'll put out a bait unit of warriors opposite my deployment zone to try baiting something to deploy over there in reaction, but it doesn't work against good players.

Deceive is nice, but rarely works since most armies are LD10 or fearless; getting people to fail morale checks and fall back is a rarity.

Where he truly shines is with Misdirect. He's unfortunately slow, but is quite comfortable nestled up against BLOS terrain in midfield waiting for something to come within 12" - since many people don't understand his ability to phase through terrain. Once he gets into that first combat, he's literally the ultimate close combat powerhouse. he charges in with 5 attacks, bypasses all saves, and on the enemy assault phase, consolidates out of combat 2d6 to either charge back in the following movement phase, or to gain 12+2d6 movement towards something else he wants to assault.

I run the Deceiver as well. Grand Illusion I enjoy more of just a safety net so I'm never taken off guard.

In CC he is almost as good as the Night Bringer but Misdirect is where it is at. He really is a counter assault unit for a Necron army and that lets him do his job wonderfully.

Other abilities are just icing on the cake.

If you have to have a C'tan, the deceiver is probably best. Nightbringer is a beatstick, a good one at that, but slow and doesn't really do much else. The deceiver on the other hand has special effects that are worth having even if he never finds CC. Which is fine. It just means he either played junk yard dog, scaring the children away, or he took a heck of a lot of fire power to bring down (unless you are playing against DE, who down everything relatively equally, since all their weapons are either high S, low AP, or wounds on 4+ poison).

The reason why I think the Deceiver is more powerful is any argument that would be used to take down the Nightbringer does not apply to the Deceiver.

Beat him up in HTH: The Deceiver decides not to fight and leaves combat.
kill him with fearless wounds: see above

Shoot him, just fill him with holes: you can hide both behind terrain or monoliths, both can move through anything as it were open ground, but the deceiver can assault a unit on your turn then leave on your opponent's turn.

So, it's safe to say that The Deceiver is the better choice

Alright guys thanks for the tips, seems like the deceiver wins this round.

Yea Deciever, is much better.

How is the math-hammer between the two?

I take the D-man every time, i just can't justify the extra 60 points for something with less ability

I personally like the Deciver. It's a few points less and has much better special rules, and it's still a MC, and so will hit like a truck in combat still.

Deceiver is by far superior to the Nightbringer is almost every aspect, but the Nightbringer has the edge against hordes.

Like others have said, the Deciever is far faster once combat starts and harder to kill once there since he can just leave unfavorable fights.

The Nightbringer's only strengths are an actual gun, being able to move enemy units, and S10. All are pretty situational, while the Deceiver's ability to say 'I'd rather be killing that unit over there' is always pretty good.

Dashofpepper wrote:I use the Deceiver in my Necron army; he is quite superior to the Nightbringer. Of all his powers, Deceive and Misdirect are the only two particularly useful ones. I rarely use Grand Illusion - occasionally I'll put out a bait unit of warriors opposite my deployment zone to try baiting something to deploy over there in reaction, but it doesn't work against good players.

Deceive is nice, but rarely works since most armies are LD10 or fearless; getting people to fail morale checks and fall back is a rarity.

Where he truly shines is with Misdirect. He's unfortunately slow, but is quite comfortable nestled up against BLOS terrain in midfield waiting for something to come within 12" - since many people don't understand his ability to phase through terrain. Once he gets into that first combat, he's literally the ultimate close combat powerhouse. he charges in with 5 attacks, bypasses all saves, and on the enemy assault phase, consolidates out of combat 2d6 to either charge back in the following movement phase, or to gain 12+2d6 movement towards something else he wants to assault.

Wait, where are you getting 2d6 and 12+2d6 from?

As for the question at hand, I pick Nightbringer every time (Yes I've tried the deceiver). The deceivers ability to leave combat is nice, but the Nightbringers' gaze of death ability is far superior since it also ignores armor saves and auto-hits anything under the template and 4+ hit anything partially under it. Potentially getting far more hits and no armor/FNP. It's better to have a dead squad that isn't locking you in combat then it is a consolidated squad that is not tar-pitted by YOU and is getting closer to your weak bits.

The deceivers "make you take a pinning or moral test" ability, while kind of neat, is pretty useless against most armies that are fielded as everything is either in a vehicle, IS a vehicle, or has a really high leadership. Much more of a chance to fail and very situational, where as the Nightbringers' ranged ability is ALWAYS useful. It's a lascannon. When do you NOT want a lascannon?

Plus, people just fear the nightbringer more than the deceiver, I've found. Don't know why.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

The Grog wrote:Like others have said, the Deciever is far faster once combat starts and harder to kill once there since he can just leave unfavorable fights.

The Nightbringer's only strengths are an actual gun, being able to move enemy units, and S10. All are pretty situational, while the Deceiver's ability to say 'I'd rather be killing that unit over there' is always pretty good.

I find it hilarious that you and posted almost the same sentence for the opposite models. But I'm sorry, being able to shoot and having str10 are ALWAYS useful. The etheric tempest ability is useless 8/10 times. Gaze of Death is where it's at.

S10 only matters against AV 14 and T5 multiwound models without EW. Oh, and Wraithlords. Those aren't that common. Tempest only matters against units that aren't S4. His gun is a 24" lascannon, but lascannons aren't so hot in this edition and he can't leave combat so easily to use it.

But the Deciever's super H&R is always threatening.

Gaze has it's benefits, but since it only partials on a 4+ I can't help but think your normal attacks will be better fairly often. 6 models auto hit at S4. Everything else gets partialed, if I remember those NB vs. Genestealer fights from codex release.

Personal preference, I suppose. I find the Deceiver's incredible threat range and ability to dodge force weapons very strong.

Kevin949 wrote:
It's better to have a dead squad that isn't locking you in combat then it is a consolidated squad that is not tar-pitted by YOU and is getting closer to your weak bits.

I disagree. A model not in combat is a model getting shot at. Poisoned weapons, high strength weapons....and C'Tans only have a 4++ to rely on. Being locked in combat during the enemy phase and unable to be charged...priceless.

The Deceiver's range comes from misdirect. He has a 6" move that ignores terrain, a 6" assault that ignores terrain, and 2d6 consolidate out of combat. That's a 12+2d6 range. Potentially 24" assault range.

Once the Deceiver hits his first combat - he's pretty much set for the whole game. The Deceiver cannot.

The Grog wrote:S10 only matters against AV 14 and T5 multiwound models without EW. Oh, and Wraithlords. Those aren't that common. Tempest only matters against units that aren't S4. His gun is a 24" lascannon, but lascannons aren't so hot in this edition and he can't leave combat so easily to use it.

But the Deciever's super H&R is always threatening.

Gaze has it's benefits, but since it only partials on a 4+ I can't help but think your normal attacks will be better fairly often. 6 models auto hit at S4. Everything else gets partialed, if I remember those NB vs. Genestealer fights from codex release.

Personal preference, I suppose. I find the Deceiver's incredible threat range and ability to dodge force weapons very strong.

Well, tempest is really pointless IMHO but I play against marines pretty much "all" the time. And since my main opponent loves to field a lot of armor, S10 is nice. And ya, 24" lascannon, forgot about the range difference. Maybe not so hot but it's an assault ranged weapon so that's a free "hit on a 4 wound on a 2" no Armor no FNP attack for a CC assault. So on the charge you could say that the nightbringer has 7 attacks on the charge.

With the deceiver (and nightbringer) moving so slowly the H&R of the deceiver, I've found, isn't that great when playing against someone that knows how to properly mobilize their troops.

Normal attacks only hit on, at best, a 3+ and since the Nightbringer is WS4 you're more often than not looking at hitting on a 4+ anyway. You really just have to factor in the variables, are the models multiwound, do they have inv. saves, etc... But against single wound squads with more models than you have attacks, it's a major benefit.

Yes, personal preference to play-style indeed, which is why it is so difficult to say if one is better than the other. If you pit the two against each other, the nightbringer has much better odds at decimating the deceiver as well.




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Dashofpepper wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:
It's better to have a dead squad that isn't locking you in combat then it is a consolidated squad that is not tar-pitted by YOU and is getting closer to your weak bits.

I disagree. A model not in combat is a model getting shot at. Poisoned weapons, high strength weapons....and C'Tans only have a 4++ to rely on. Being locked in combat during the enemy phase and unable to be charged...priceless.

The Deceiver's range comes from misdirect. He has a 6" move that ignores terrain, a 6" assault that ignores terrain, and 2d6 consolidate out of combat. That's a 12+2d6 range. Potentially 24" assault range.

Once the Deceiver hits his first combat - he's pretty much set for the whole game. The Nightbringer cannot.

If your opponent is wasting his shots on the C'tan then he's not shooting at the right targets unless the C'tan is the only thing they can see or are in range of. Where as with a dead squad, that's less weaponry that is available to shoot at you.

I see what you're saying now about the 2d6 thing and misdirect. I was confused a bit by it earlier because the misdirect and move+assault happen in different turns so I didn't count it all as one "thing" in my head.

I'll take the tomb stalkers fleet+H&R over the deceiver's, personally.

Doesn't the Stalker still need an I check, and doesn't it still happen at the end of the combat and not the start?

Deceiver needs an initiative check (or leadership, can't remember) as well.

And no, I believe the stalker and deceiver are the same as far as H&R goes. I'll double check later today though, not at home, but I remember looking at the two in the last game I played where I had them both and I don't think there was a difference between the two.

Either way, I'll still take the stalker over the deceiver.

Kevin949 wrote:Deceiver needs an initiative check (or leadership, can't remember) as well.

He doesn't, he just leaves.

samrtk wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:Deceiver needs an initiative check (or leadership, can't remember) as well.

He doesn't, he just leaves.

Hm, ya first printing book says as much. I'll check my second printing book too, I could have sworn he did. Well, if not then that's good.

Yeah, his version of H&R makes him literally unkillable unless he chooses to stay and fight.

A couple of good examples.

One of the armies I played against today was Dark Angel Death Wing. Belial + 5 units of terminators, three dreadnoughts and 3 bikes + attack bike.

Each terminator unit had a chainfist, powerfist, cyclone missile launchers, power weapon, and Thunderhammer/Stormshield.

I deep-struck a Monolith between my Deceiver and three of his terminator units to encourage him to assault it, which he did - which put my Deceiver within 12" for his own assault. He assaulted into terminators, killed three of them, and was locked in combat. On the enemy turn, he assaulted me with the rest of his terminators. Three thunderhammers, three powerfists, and three chainfists (all STR8, most on the charge for +attacks) would do a number to the Deceiver *or* the Nightbringer. So I consolidated out of combat, particle whipped everything in there twice, then charged back in against one unit.

The Nightbringer would sit there and get beaten on.

The game before that was against Descent of Angel Sanguinary Guard - all with 2+ armour, 4+ Feel No Pain. Same thing.

They're both slow - where the Deceiver shines is his ability to gain momentum from combat and *get* to where he needs to be. If the enemy isn't coming to you, its going to *be* turn 3-4 before either C'Tan even gets anywhere useful, even running during his shooting phase. The Deceiver can make those last couple of turns shine via mobility and assault; the Nightbringer has to desperately go for what he can and hope for good dice.

Dashofpepper wrote:A couple of good examples.

One of the armies I played against today was Dark Angel Death Wing. Belial + 5 units of terminators, three dreadnoughts and 3 bikes + attack bike.

Each terminator unit had a chainfist, powerfist, cyclone missile launchers, power weapon, and Thunderhammer/Stormshield.

I deep-struck a Monolith between my Deceiver and three of his terminator units to encourage him to assault it, which he did - which put my Deceiver within 12" for his own assault. He assaulted into terminators, killed three of them, and was locked in combat. On the enemy turn, he assaulted me with the rest of his terminators. Three thunderhammers, three powerfists, and three chainfists (all STR8, most on the charge for +attacks) would do a number to the Deceiver *or* the Nightbringer. So I consolidated out of combat, particle whipped everything in there twice, then charged back in against one unit.

The Nightbringer would sit there and get beaten on.

The game before that was against Descent of Angel Sanguinary Guard - all with 2+ armour, 4+ Feel No Pain. Same thing.

They're both slow - where the Deceiver shines is his ability to gain momentum from combat and *get* to where he needs to be. If the enemy isn't coming to you, its going to *be* turn 3-4 before either C'Tan even gets anywhere useful, even running during his shooting phase. The Deceiver can make those last couple of turns shine via mobility and assault; the Nightbringer has to desperately go for what he can and hope for good dice.

Once again dash, thanks for the words of wisdom.

It is worth mentioning that if you don't already own the C'tan, you might want to hold off on buying them.

They will either have brand new models or will be removed altogether, when the new codex hits

Defiler37 wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:A couple of good examples.

One of the armies I played against today was Dark Angel Death Wing. Belial + 5 units of terminators, three dreadnoughts and 3 bikes + attack bike.

Each terminator unit had a chainfist, powerfist, cyclone missile launchers, power weapon, and Thunderhammer/Stormshield.

I deep-struck a Monolith between my Deceiver and three of his terminator units to encourage him to assault it, which he did - which put my Deceiver within 12" for his own assault. He assaulted into terminators, killed three of them, and was locked in combat. On the enemy turn, he assaulted me with the rest of his terminators. Three thunderhammers, three powerfists, and three chainfists (all STR8, most on the charge for +attacks) would do a number to the Deceiver *or* the Nightbringer. So I consolidated out of combat, particle whipped everything in there twice, then charged back in against one unit.

The Nightbringer would sit there and get beaten on.

The game before that was against Descent of Angel Sanguinary Guard - all with 2+ armour, 4+ Feel No Pain. Same thing.

They're both slow - where the Deceiver shines is his ability to gain momentum from combat and *get* to where he needs to be. If the enemy isn't coming to you, its going to *be* turn 3-4 before either C'Tan even gets anywhere useful, even running during his shooting phase. The Deceiver can make those last couple of turns shine via mobility and assault; the Nightbringer has to desperately go for what he can and hope for good dice.

Once again dash, thanks for the words of wisdom.

Haha. Priceless.

Anyone who has made it impossible for Orks and Eldar to assault their warriors with the Nightbringer would say that Etheric Tempest is pretty awesome. The fact that the C'Tan are slow is kind of a silly thing to use against them, since people who know what they're doing will be coming to you to try and phase you out.

Still, it comes down to play style. Try them both out and see what fits with the rest of your army and tactics the best.