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A friend of mine was running 4 demon princes in a squad(multi-character unit) all identical and they were shot at and received numerous wounds. The debate then came on whether he would allocate to each demon prince or roll alltogether considering that in their sense they were identical and all plebs for that matter. After consulting the BRB we discovered the rule that if they were identical then he had to roll altogether. we forced him to do so but I just would like to check that this is right. Unfortunatly he saved all of these wounds and proclaimed the "dice gods" made this possible. With that aside should multicharacter units with identical models in them roll wounds together or allocate?

All wounds must be allocated to one model of a unit made up of multi-wound models until it dies, then you move the remaining wounds to the next one. IF each has different wargear, then you may allocate one wound to each before having to put a 2nd on each model.

You can take all of the saves together if the unit is identical, but every wound he does suffer has to be put on one model until that model dies, at which point every remaining unsaved wound is put on the next model until it dies, so on and so forth. So if each DP has 4 wounds(I don't know the actual number, just an example), you roll all the saves and come up with 7 unsaved wounds. One demon prince is removed outright and a single other demon prince is given all 3 of the other wounds. Does this make sense?

I can't think of any way to have a squad of daemon princes. They're not characters. They're units of one model, which thus can't even be joined by an independent character, per the IC rules.

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That being said, we can still look at the rules.

If you have a unit of models which have identical statlines (which DPs do) and equipment (which they often don't), then yes, you would group all the wounds together and as soon as the squad as a whole suffers the number of W which are on the profile, a model is removed.

If a unit has models with differing statlines and/or equipment suffers a bunch of wounds, you have to allocate them to different groups of identical models before saves are rolled, and any resulting wounds stay in that group, and cannot roll over to kill models in other groups.

Cool just checking. Me and another guy were playing 2k and then he was playing 4k of csm s so he had 4 demon princes of slaanesh. Eventually 2 of them were killed by a monolith and another cut down by about 15 Fire warriors. The last one survived.

Just to confirm, if you're playing Chaos Space Marines you can only have two Daemon Princes, and they're each always a unit of one model.

Of course you can change the rules however you like in your home; but be prepared to patch a lot of other rules that it may impact, like wound allocation.

Yeah since he was playing 4k we doubled the force organization chart.

Wait, ICs can't join single-model units?

So no priests joining Mephiston?

Spellbound wrote:Wait, ICs can't join single-model units?

So no priests joining Mephiston?

Correct.

I am assuming the original question is something along the lines of multiple ICs joining together but being identical otherwise? Technically it reads that they are resolved as one unit with identical equipment, so you remove whole models, but personally I think it is open to debate giving their inherent difference for game purposes (targeted separately, can detach, etc.). It is a situation that the rules do not address or make clear unfortunately, and can cause problems in assault in particular.

Wait so demon princes can't join together but they can join a squad such as 2 demon drinces joining a squad.

No.

Daemon Princes can't join together (or join other squads) because they are not ICs. The OP and his fellow gamers were either mistaken or making up house rules.

ICs cannot join any unit that always consists of one model. ICs can join each other, and they can join units that are 1 model (but not always). A Tyranid Prime can join a Carnifex, but not a Trygon. A Grey Knight Grand Master can join a Paladin, but not the SC Crowe.

Sorry I'm a little confused. So ICs can join some one model squads but not others?...

They can't join squads that always consist of one model.

A Trygon, for example, is only ever selected as a unit of 1 model. An IC can not join this unit.
A Carnifex can be selected in a unit of 1-3 models. It is therefore not a unit that is always a single model... and so ICs can join.

If the unit has a variable size, IC's can join it. If the unit composition is only ever possibly going to be '1' then IC's can not join unless that 1 model unit is another IC.

Oh okay that makes sense.

This is all covered on page 48, its worth having a read as ICs have a whole load of allowances and exceptions to the normal rules that are worth knowing!

Everyone seems to be giving you a slightly more complex answer than is needed.

You state it was a 4k game so therefore you doubled the FO.

Your friend had 4 x deamon princes, he did not have 4 x deamon princes in a unit.

His opponent should have declared the exact model he was shooting at and shot it and resolved all hits / wounds / saves on that model.

This also prevents the 2 bites at the cherry situation where if the model dies then all other wounds are lost and are not allocated to another model.

I wasn't aware that ICs could ever join with a Monsterous Creature unit, regardless of its size.

They are not specifically restricted from joining MCs, however until the Nid codex MCs tended to walk alone and so couldnt be joined.

Even if they're part of a squad though, MCs have to be targeted individually, so the shooter would have picked the one to shoot.

Durza wrote:Even if they're part of a squad though, MCs have to be targeted individually, so the shooter would have picked the one to shoot.

There is no such rule. This is incorrect.

Monstrouc Creature ICs can still be picked out when shooting, however Daemon Princes are not ICs....

Even if they were, they still couldn't be picked out, as they'd each be joining a unit of MCs

GBDarkAngel wrote:Everyone seems to be giving you a slightly more complex answer than is needed.

You state it was a 4k game so therefore you doubled the FO.

Your friend had 4 x deamon princes, he did not have 4 x deamon princes in a unit.

You seem to have misunderstood the thread. His group misunderstood the rules, so the DID have four Daemon Princes in a unit, because they thought DPs were ICs and could join units, and they thought that DPs could be joined by ICs. While this is not legal, similar situations (4 ICs joining together) are possible. So we discussed two issues- 1) How and why they were mistaken about DPs, and 2) How you would handle it with ICs, where this situation could conceivably happen.

how about if you had multiple ICs that could join a unit

like say a DE player had 6 haemonculi. They ordinarily cannot join together but then they all join a unit of 3 wracks. They now have a bazzillion pain tokens. Somehow the wracks die.

Now you have 6 haemonculi in a unit. If they are all identical I suppose you would roll their 6+ armor and 4+ FNP all together if you like.

If one leaves can he come back? There is now a unit there and I would imagine it could still be joined.

Exergy - actually ICs CAN join each other. They are a special exception to the "no joining units of always one model" rule

Hey im the guy in question about the princes, diddnt realise they wernt independant char's for a start (gawd that could have saved some time) but thankyou all for the clarification, one thin g i would like to ask tho, it says that independant characters may join or leave a squad at any time so if you had a squad of 4 i dentical ic's that you would have to roll for as a group, could you potentiall disjoin one model from the squad being shot at to prevent him taking wounds????

You can only join and leave units during movement, so no, you can't remove anything from a unit while they are being shot at.

okydokey

Mannahnin wrote:

GBDarkAngel wrote:Everyone seems to be giving you a slightly more complex answer than is needed.

You state it was a 4k game so therefore you doubled the FO.

Your friend had 4 x deamon princes, he did not have 4 x deamon princes in a unit.

You seem to have misunderstood the thread. His group misunderstood the rules, so the DID have four Daemon Princes in a unit, because they thought DPs were ICs and could join units, and they thought that DPs could be joined by ICs. While this is not legal, similar situations (4 ICs joining together) are possible. So we discussed two issues- 1) How and why they were mistaken about DPs, and 2) How you would handle it with ICs, where this situation could conceivably happen.

Ahh i see now then in that case and to avoid any silly arguments you would allocate shooting. The player shooting is free imo to allocate shooting in this situation as he sees fit. These were IC's in a squad and all large enough to be targetted individually.
Thats just my take on it and could quite possibly be 110% wrong..lol

not 110% MC ICs can not be targetted individually if they join a unit of MCs. As all four of them were monstrous creatures, so none of them could have been targeted individually.