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I've not followed all of this thread, the last one melted my brain to much to go through it again! But it seems that for many players, Necrons are going to be very very different if the rumours pan out; mainly the loss of the ability to pull Necrons out of combat and the loss of Jetbike rules on Scarabs and Destroyers (but mainly Scarabs!).
More than anything I hope they have a unique feel to them - as long as they have that I'm not too bothered what gets done to them but I'll miss turbo-boosting my Scarabs and getting a 2+ save :p

Praxiss wrote:Hmm, interesting. Anyone know of a Tutorial for the plasti-card inept?

No need....

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/306008.page



(Not mine btw!)

asimo77 wrote:I never thought I'd be saying this, but the current codex looks more appealing so far. Kinda sad that after waiting a bazlliion years for an update many of the rumours are disheartening.

I'm very sceptical that anywhere near all of these rumours are true - if they are then it is the biggest alteration made to any army in 5th edition by a loooong way.

My biggest problem with the rumours at the moment is that there is nothing to help Warriors in Combat, and I think that if GW don't fix that then they will have missed a big opportunity and Warriors will still languish of shelves and in drawers - who like seeing 15 models destroyed by sweeping advance because 3 died in combat and you need to roll a 6 to escape on initiative? In fact if they can't be pulled out of combat by the Monolith etc (as is the rumour) then they will actually be even worse off in combat!

Nagashek wrote:I guess I'm just trying to figure out why anyone would bother with Warriors if they already have a Necron list that (sorta) works. Likely all 40 of the warriors I now field will be "Immortals," will have the same stats and Warriors do now with a better gun, for a ppm cheaper. Yeah. And since the unit of immortals I already field is cheaper, I'm looking at upwards of 50 troops models and a good 200 spare to play with. Sounds okay to me. Why bother with normal Warriors? Like ever?

It's a good point, but I think having a unit in the codex that is so horribly vulnerable to something is a waste - especially when it's the iconic unit!

Sectiplave wrote:Well from what I'm hearing, you can now hide a Cryptek in the unit with a S6 or 7 power weapon, you can boost them to a 4+ invulnerable save that works in the shooting and assault phase, they can be inside a vehicle (possibly open topped) instead of on foot to get assaulted, and there is also a vehicle that can apparently regenerate dead models in a unit. There are also a hinted bunch of special characters that will hopefully have some special rules that make them worth beyond their points cost when utilized correctly. Imagine Vulkan He-Necron, all Gauss weapons are now twin-linked

Again, all good (particularly if the new WBB is taken before morale checks) but if they're still I2 then you'll lose the unit plus the cryptec which probably makes them as expensive as they are now - what I would like would be a rule that stops big units being sweeping advanced so that footslogging lists are viable or that big unit that's just had their transport blown up wont get wiped out in combat just because they're a bit slow. I think if a limit to how many could be destroyed by SA would be useful, i.e. a select number of 'crons littery get in the way while the rest of the squad escapes.

yakface wrote:I feel that the point you're missing is that Warriors aren't supposed to be good in combat. You generally want to get them run down because the army has always been generally centered around mid to short ranged shooting........

Yeah I gues I just don't see units like that; I've only been playing for a couple of years and am still a Marine player at heart so I'm not used to having units I can afford to sacrifice - I do still think that you can lose too many models to SA though, but I suppose that is an issue with the rule, not the unit.

angelshade00 wrote:

Kurgash wrote:
Yes but after his recent works one questions if he will continue the trend of the Space Marine fluff or will he go all out using his creative juices to make good story/background that doesn't raise an eyebrow.

One can only hope.

With the rumour being that the book has had several authors, I expect that the fluff will have fewer of the Wardism (poorly explained occurances that leave a bitter taste if taken certain ways). I'm expecting that I'll hate the codex at first and then settle into it as my mind works out how each change can fit into the little Necron world in my head :p

KarlPedder wrote:

King Pariah wrote:no, it still is, just don't expect changes to units which are already plastic. Or the destroyer lord I guess (though his torso, arms, etc. are pewter, so I guess they're keeping a little pewter?)

I was more thinking any conversion from hybrid metal/plastic to full plastic wouldn't see any large asthetic changes.

But I thought there was a firm rumour that the Lords were going to full (new) Immortal size - which is presumably the same size as the current destoryers as they are bigger than the immortals - and the current pewter destroyer lord torso is slightly smaller than the current destroyers. Maybe the torso is bigger when you don't have the shrinkage of Pewter, or maybe they just don't care if the old smaller Lords are still poster boys

or something to that effect which actually makes sense!

p.s. Kroothawk - you definite about that? If we don't get Incomings! anymore then that means advanced orders released in August!

lowmanjason wrote:
Well NIGHTBRINGER was more than just a chapter about Necrons it was about a crazy human and Dark Eldar thinking they could control the Nightbringer once he released or woke it or whatever. My beef with that book was that they made The Nightbringer afraid of a melta bomb. I know it won’t kill you but you will be trapped underneath all this rubble blah blah blah. Like he couldn’t just phase through the rubble!

But i would like to hear more about the battle in the current Necrons codex with it Cadians being slaughtered or the BTs getting waxed and that Marshal Augustine was killed by wraiths. That story mentioned all kinds of different Necrons, not just "tall metal skeletons with glowing green eyes and guns". It really bugs me when that is the only description these books ever use for them. But then again Nightbringer is the only one I've read yet. Hopefully they aren’t as bland in the others as soon plan to get them.

I did think the bit with the Nightbringer and the Meltabomb was a bit weird, but assumed that it was because he was weak or that he didn't want the key to his mega-ship being destroyed - what I'd like to see is the Nghtbringer taking his legions to Macragge to get his key back I did like the hidden point though that the Nightbringer had orchestrated the whole scenario from within his sleep! That's why the Human guy had such terrible visions and the need to inflict pain etc.

Dead Men Walking shows the difference in deployment between Warriors, Immortals and Wraiths and the ease with which the Necrons can push back Imperial forces but the protagonists are unlikeable making it a rather dull read.

On the subject of "new" models, I like the sketch of the floating Rhino/mini monolith - as others have said, I'd much rather that than floating boats which would remind me too much of DE even if they are totally different boat types.

Tyrs13 wrote:Wraiths:
There is no Strength 6 power weapon that should go at initiative 6.
Think of a what a Powerfist with initiative 6 would do ... its almost the same effect minus insta death. No army should have an I win button for any kind of combat.
You can have an advantage but it should a chance to save or cost a hell of a lot.

You mean other than the Swarmlord, which is also WS9 with 5 wounds? And the 'Nids have a couple more with similar strength and initiative whilst also being Monstrous Creatures - their downside is that they're one-offs rather than units, but I expect that the Wraiths will also have their downsides (personally I think they'll lose their invulnerable but gain some sort of permanent cover save, stay at 1 wound, have average (4) WS and toughness and obviously no guns). But like the Lictor, their closests equivalent, I doubt they'll be cheap.
Power weapons fit their fluff far too well for them not to get them IMO

EDIT: Also, am I the only one that doesn't like the fact that they seem to be writing the Pariah Gene and Mutes out of the game?

asimo77 wrote:But what about us Slaanesh and Deldar players? Surely we can get all rape-y on our enemies. Would seem rather prudish and contradictory if the DE and Slaaneshi armies didn't engage in this sort of behaviour.

I didn't want to wade in here but as people won't stop casually referring to Rape:

I'm very good friends with some-one who has been raped, and having seen the long term effects and how the casual and flippant references to Rape in popular culture effects them I get rather irritated and disturbed when it is referred to in this way.

An important aspect to remember is that Rape often leads to PTSD which effects the way the the victims brain works, they fail to be able to rationalise the events - not only does the mention of the word sometimes cause flashbacks, but the casual and "humourous" way that people refer to it belittles what they have been through; this makes them believe that they are somehow weak and pathetic for being so effected by it and can even result in feelings that they deserved it - obvious this can spiral into full blown suicidal tendancies if their mood was already low.

Referring to Rape in a mater-of-fact way when talking about Vikings etc (raping and pillaging) is acceptable, but twisting it into a casual remark about how your toy soldiers just won a dice contest is certainly not - think about the context that you use your words.

Anvildude wrote:Of course, some other armies will basically ignore it. Mechanized Orks will probably just roll right through. Pretty much every Ork vehicle has an upgrade that allows it to reroll Dangerous terrain checks (even the lowly Buggy), Nigh everyone can take Assault Grenades, Meganobz ignore Difficult terrain by already being SnP, Kommandoes can Move Through Cover, Lootas and Big Gunz don't move, period, etc.

I do think it would make for some really, really interesting games, though. Might have to try playing a game where the whole board is Difficult Terrain some day.

This /\
It will just make people think more about their lists, Dozer blades are cheap enough for SM and IG - Mech Eldar and DE will be hurt badly by it though as I don't think they have anything like Dozers (could easily be wrong though, I hate Space Elves so I haven't read their codecies)

Kevin949 wrote:I believe there is a spearhead formation or two that allows different types of vehicles to move their full speed ans fire all their weapons already. And yes, it's once per game. Though it may have been limited to skimmers and jetbikes.

Yeah it's Seek and Destroy Spearhead - 50pts plus models and is only once per game for skimmers and bikes only

angelshade00 wrote:Good to know. And what angers me the most, is the certainty that, even if Necrons get released in November, the next codex will again be some Marine chapter or something...

I think it's unlikely we'll see another Marine chapter in 5th edition. By my calculations, in order to fit in the last two/three 3rd edition codecies and the remaining major books* before 6th edition, the release schedule should be:

Necrons, Sisters, Tau, Eldar, Orks, Chaos SM - with Eldar and Sisters taking the place of a MEQ army ***EDIT: I now know Tau are 4th ed, not 3rd***

But if Sisters are getting done next with a WD codex, then it messes the whole thing up (unless GW breaks the pattern they have shown so far) as Eldar would have to follow Necrons and I think that's unlikely as there are no rumours to support it (although it would fit the fluff!). An alternative would therefore be:

Necrons, Eldar, Tau, Chaos SM, Orks

Either way this would probably push 6th edition into 2013 as there just isn't the time to get 4 codecies and a new ruleset in 2012 imo so I'm still open minded and expecting some more hi-jinx from GW

* IMO the major armies are: SM, IG, Tyranids, Eldar, Orks, Chaos SM

cyberscape7 wrote:Ummm, I'm pretty sure the only codexs left for 5th edition are crons and sob. After necrons come out, then they'll release 6th edition, nerfing necrons yet again, and following that the rest of the ocdex's will update(after space marines of course)

****Edit: Just checked and Tau are indeed 4th ed so sorry for the note below****
Tau are running with a 3rd edition codex, so it would be really weird to not update them as it would leave them as the only 3rd ed codex not updated in 5th*. Eldar, Orks and CSM are all 4th edition codecies and major armies so I can't see them not getting done in 5th edition unless they're the first codecies in 6th (v.doubtfull). If GW don't do a new CSM codex, a lot of people will be annoyed to say the least as it's possibly the most dull book out there plus loads of their models are overdue an update. Although Eldar and Orks don't need new codecies, neither did 'Nids so I see no reason to think they wont get one in 5th - depends on whether GW see them as major armies like I do.

But like I said, I wouldn't be suprised if we see some shenanigans of some sort and the timescales would fit better if one or two of the armies I think will be done for 5th are dropped until 6th. If it was: Sister WD, Necrons and CSM before 6th, that would fit really well.

* SW, BA, DE and GK were all on 3rd edition codecies if you ignore the BA pdf

Steelmage99 wrote:And don't forget Dark Angels and Black Templars.

An FAQ update does not a 5th edition codex make.....at all!

They've got 4th ed codecies and are minor armies, so I doubt they'll get updated until 6th - same with Chaos Daemons. Plus BA, SW, DE, GK and Necrons will probably not get an update in 6th IMO

Kevin949 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:WEll, the chink tends to be Tactical marines. THeyre pretty poor.

Ya, so they just don't take 'em if they can avoid it. Unlike many other armies (like necrons) whose chink is...the only troops choice. LoL But really, even tac marines aren't THAT bad compared to other armies that take up the same FO slot as TM's. If you get what I'm saying. Either way, you can still stick 'em in a box and drive 'em around protected while blasting out the high str low AP weaponry.

They're not bad, and the tactic above works well - their problem is that people are so used to them that they know how to deal with them and usually design at least part of their army to specifically to deal with Tac squads sat on an objective on the other side of the table.

Warriors on the other hand are very weak as there isn't really a reliable way of using them considering their high points costs, limited range of fire and vulnerability to sweeping advance (imo the most stupid illogical rule in 5th ed 40k, and I mostly play Marines!)

nosferatu1001 wrote:Grim - SA has been around since 3rd edition, and is entirely unchanged since 4th edition. AS in, the rule is WORD for WORD the same.

The reason everyone is hung up on it is the change to the break test taken in combat, which means that FINALLY combat isnt a sluggfest till one side is entirely dead - or near as makes no odds - like it was in 4th

Fair enough, I only tinkered with 3rd and didn't play fourth at all - it's still a stupid illogical rule though, as if breaking from combat in terror means that the enemy can suddenly carve you all up regardless of your comparative numbers, armour etc I also don't like Fearless wounds - it's like they tried to think of a downside to a rule that shouldn't have a downside other than the inability to break from combat just because they'd handed it out like sweets.

And yes I am grumpy this morning

KarlPedder wrote:Actually SA makes perfect sense and isn't illogical in the slightest, Fearless needed to be altered because of the ability to lock units in combat for an entire game. The problem was that putting the same downside from fearless onto ATSKNF without any additional nerf made it better than fearless and considering the ridiculous amount of SM players it's all the worse.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Grim - as the SA rule says, it doesnt represent you all being dead, necessarily, just so broken that you scatter and are unable to form a cohesive unit. There is PLENTY of examples of this happening IRL as well - once morale is gone to the point that you scatter, you are not an effective fighting force any longer. certainly not one that can be controlled by the player - hence the inability to control them, and their removal from the board.

However if its guard breaking from genestealers, then they probably have all been eaten....

And that's fine for representing Boyz, maybe IG Infantry etc but it shouldn't be the "normal" way for trained professional soldiers to react when losing combat - from my limited point of view having never actually had to fight for my life - for example should Necron Warriors, IG Storm Troopers or Chaos Space Marines be wiped out in combat in this way? Hell no! ATSKNF, or an equivalent, should be the norm and therefore reflected in the main rulebook and not just one single army type (loyalist MEQ).
I would say that you should then have a "Fearfull" sort of rule for lesser combatants and probably two types of Fearless to reflect the difference between Bezerker type fearless units and Mindless type fearless units which do whatever their master tells them regardless of the personnal consequences.

KarlPedder wrote:

Grim.Badger wrote:And that's fine for representing Boyz, maybe IG Infantry etc but it shouldn't be the "normal" way for trained professional soldiers to react when losing combat - from my limited point of view having never actually had to fight for my life - for example should Necron Warriors, IG Storm Troopers or Chaos Space Marines be wiped out in combat in this way? Hell no! ATSKNF, or an equivalent, should be the norm and therefore reflected in the main rulebook and not just one single army type (loyalist MEQ).

Professional Soldier or not when you turn tail and run from a melee engagement chances are your dead and yes even the best soldiers are effected by morale and seeing your more of your squad mates die is going to reduce your morale...

You mean like WW1 where morale was constantly rock bottom and you got to see thousands of you mates die? and troops still moved forwards. There are examples of troops withstanding crippling attacks in both shooting and CC circumstances throughout history and standing their ground, or falling back to the next cover and reforming; it's what trained soldiers do, not something that should be a SM special rule.
I'm not saying SA has no place in the game, but it really shouldn't be "the norm" given that the vast majority of the units in the game are career soldiers.

And the Swarm Lord taking 9 fearless wounds when the Marines hadn't scratched it is just plain dumb, the "everyone in the combat" part of the fearless rule needs to go at the very least. I don't like taking 15 fearless wounds on my Scarabs, but I can live with it, but taking another 15 on anything else in the same combat because an MC has killed 5 scarab bases is ludicrous and unjustified. I know the way around it is to not let anything else be in the same combat, but you shouldn't have to work around broken rules.

Ward's Codecies seem to be balanced when it comes to established units, but new units are a bit hit-and-miss; however so far I haven't seen one that is overpowered, just overcosted.

That bodes well for existing Necron Units and established players and hopefully means that you wont need a whole load of new models.

Unless they change the fluff, Necrons aren't made of Living Metal - the book Nightbringer makes a point that the ships etc are made of a different material than the troops (no mater what DoW says!).
As for smashing up a Necron, I think of them being built more like Black Boxes from aircraft but obviously with some weak points for joints etc; have you ever seen them testing those things? By dropping tons of piston strength on them or setting them on fire?

6th Edition is meant to be lowering FNP to 5+, so 5+ WBB for Necrons would be reasonable.

Also, when comparing the IoM to Necrons, you have to remember that a lot of their advanced technology was "stolen" from the dreams of the Void Dragon prior to the Great Crusade and mixed with the technology from the Dark Age of Technology so there is every justification for the IoM having super fancy tech.

I'm just hoping that my Necrons will be able to bring pain to IG and DE in a way that my Marines can only dream of without having to tailor my list (which I wont do!).