Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So I've been a fairly standard Mech eldar list lately. Might not be cookie cutter but it does have some very common elements. tend to run a Farseer for HQ 2 Jetbike squads and Dire avengers, sometimes storm guardians for troops. Fire Dragons in Elite Then a pair of Prisms and Warwalkers in Heavy support.

My question is this, in a standard mech Eldar list should a Farseer be on a Jetbike? This is assuming he has a Guardian Jetbike squad to join.

Pros:
I've always been told the guaranteed mobility offered from a bike is a plus.
The group of bikes can take hits meaning a single lucky shot can't take away mobility.
Having a Warlock on a bike in the squad offers the same effect as a 15 pt upgrade for rerolling leadership tests.
Can use shooting Psychic powers. (Not that they are really that good)

Cons:
Subject to a multitude of psychic defense.
Looses the extra reach on the 6" powers from the Serpent hull.
Pay more points making the farseer cost a lot for a pure force multiplying HQ.
Probably less durable when looked at mathematically.

So in the context of a non seer council list will a Jetseer work? Or is it better to run him in a Serpent with DA's or Storm Guardians?

I've always put my seers on bikes in the squad of jetlocks, typically 6-7 strong with 2x Embolden, 2x Enhance, and 2-3x Destructor. Three warlocks (one for each power) are given spears to complicate matters for wound allocation. The seer benefits from the warlock's Embolden for psychic tests and the locks benefit from the seer's WS and Ld10 when in combat. They are an awesome unit, much less scary now than when I came back to the game 3 years ago now, but still hard.

However, the "mini-council" method of sticking your jetseer in a GJB squad is a fair way of giving him some ablative wounds (although pricey) while maintaining his mobility. It's defintely cheaper than a warlock council (in both points and $$) and usually use it for smaller games, say 1200 or less.

Adding a Laser Lance, Mandiblasters, Fusion Gun, Jetbike Autarch to this unit gives you some additional hitting power and usually is cheaper than a second seer, around 130pts compared to the 170ish of a Stones/Doom/Fortune Seer. Additionally, the Autarch's +1 to Reserve Rolls is awesome for getting your army on the table if you've reserved them , which is a common tactic for Eldar armies in general.

To answer your question, if you're running mech, then run mech and stick your farseer in a serpent or DAVU Falcon - stay true to your list as hybrids rarely are effective. Your farseer is typically going to be helping out the units he's bunked up with, dooming Bladestorm targets while guiding avengers, or the same with the Walkers.

However, if you're going to run a Jetseer, consider getting a Warlock bike council for him and running the bike squads as troops, keeping your prisms and walkers. Try Harlies as elites since they're almost as mobile as the bikes. It's a fun and challenging list to run requiring a little more finesse than a mech eldar list, but can hit almost as hard.

Well, I normally run a Seer Council mounted in a Serpent.
Its eventually more challenging to play but it suits my playstyle
(approaching the enemy while constantly shooting him, after it going for his throat).

wuestenfux wrote:Well, I normally run a Seer Council mounted in a Serpent.
Its eventually more challenging to play but it suits my playstyle
(approaching the enemy while constantly shooting him, after it going for his throat).

In a mech army, I prefer this version of mounting a seer council. In less mech armies, I go for the jetbike squad because it will definately occupy the enemy long enough for my other troops to do their jobs.

Putting a farseer in a serpent requires more thought than you'd initially think. Lets analyse the common powers farseers use (so, the non-shooting ones) and their role on bike, in serpent, and on foot.

DOOM:
In a jetseer, this lets destructors, TL cats and then witchblades all reroll to wound. Given you'll have auto-hits from templates, 3+ TL on the cats and WS5 in assault with enhance, doom gives a significant boost to wounds on those big units like Nobz and Paladins, before assaulting them, and is essential for the jetseer death star to compete with other such units.

On foot, doom supports avengers and banshees with their bladestorm and power weapons, which is where these units draw a large amount of their strength and threat from. Banshees particularly are unthreatening without doom support.

However, in the mech phase of the game, assuming you're even in doom range and there is a non-vehicle unit to doom that you ALSO plan on hitting, you're probably only hitting it with EML blasts and maybe the odd scatter laser. Consiquently, doom has much less value in a heavy-serpent list where the banshee/bladestorm/template fire is less concentrated.

GUIDE:
No use in a jetbike set, unless supporting other squads, so...

On foot in a support role, this is generally used on walker squadrons that outflank, but most often foot farseers are with banshees or avengers, and avengers don't benefit nearly as much from this as they do from doom.

In serpents, guide is very powerful if cast on a falcon or walker squadron, however if you're using serpent mobility to its maximum then sometimes guide is wasted as serpent weapons are TL already, and staying within 6" of walkers isn't always a viable option. However, this is a very good place to put a guideseer, especially in a falcon.

FORTUNE:
In a jetseer council, this gives the unit its toughness and is completely inexcusable and cannot be missed. If fortune fails for a turn, expect heavy casualties. Fortune on these gives 89% saves to AP4+ and 75% saves to the rest.

Fortune in a support role isn't as useful, it can aid an avatar or even a foot council a lot, but it isn't a game breaker like it is with the jetseer council.

In a serpent, this lets your vehicles reroll their 4+ flat out cover save, which is very nice, but keep in mind that where a squad will lose 1 guy to a bad roll, one lascannon shot can still wreck that fortuned serpent going flat out if you whiff.

So, what can we say overall? Farseers in serpents are good, but sometimes its hard to deliver their powers to where they are needed, and other times its hard to simply have something worth multiplying by the power. Fortuning a single tank just makes it less likely to be shot at, and it will take a very clever strategy to force an opponent to fire more shots at a fortuned serpent than necessary to simply stun it for turn.

Personally, if you include a guideseer in a mech list, make sure you design the list such that he has a dedicated role. Don't put him in a serpent if you know that serpent needs to charge forward and claim objectives - you'll never get to guide your walkers at the back. Also, remember that psychic powers are done before movement, so you need to set up *this* turn so that powers are in range *next* turn.

Eldrad in a DAVU Falcon with war walkers nearby is a huge fire-base, and with guide on the falcon and the walkers you can get a lot of damage out, but you give up a lot of points to take this, and its still not recommended.

I always, ALWAYS, run my Council in a WS for several reasons:

1. You cannot turbo and cast anything, but you can cast and then go flat out in a serpent, even Fortuning that 4+ cover save.

2. It adds another serpent into a mech list...always good.

3. A Jet Council is ALWAYS exposed to the enemy, whereas a Serpent Council is safe unitl the disembark.

4. Eldrad can go with the council in a serpent....enough said.

Alerian wrote: 4. Eldrad can go with the council in a serpent....enough said.

This isn't actually as clever as you think it is. Eldrad is an old man and he doesn't have fleet. Putting him in a foot council actually removes fleet from the squad. Thats not good! I'd RATHER have a regular farseer in a foot council- just so that I don't lose that extra charge range. Fleet is almost necessary when you can't assault out of a moving waveserpent.

All things considered- I just can't justify losing a point of toughness, the 3+ armor save, and mobility that cannot be shot out from under you. I appreciate players like Wuestenflux being able to pull it off, but I just don't think its worth it.

Also Jet Councils are supposed to be always exposed to the enemy. They are bullet magnets extraordinare! with a re rolling 3+ armor and 4+ invulnerable, they have awesome durability.

tehscat wrote:In a jetseer council, this gives the unit its toughness and is completely inexcusable and cannot be missed. If fortune fails for a turn, expect heavy casualties. Fortune on these gives 89% saves to AP4+ and 75% saves to the rest.

Infact that is half of the value of a jetseer council. It is extremely threatening, and extremely durable. The enemy wastes tons of firepower on it- and it still probably lives..., while the rest of your army advances unscathed. You want the enemy to be shooting at it- you are paying for that. Which is why Jetseers work best with GJB squads in Saim Han Style lists.

Exactly Akaean - I want the enemy shooting my council. There is no need to turbo boost the council, ever, since their 4++ rune armor is almost as good as the 3++ cover from turbo, and they should always be in a position where their 18" assault range is threatening the enemy, unlike GJBs which use their turbo boost to defensively cover objectives.

I'd rather take a 4++ fortuned rune armor and lose a warlock to bad rolls, than take a 4++ fortuned skimmer cover save and lose my council's mobility completely. Plus, you can shoot with bikes and position flamers well. Plus, you can assault the same turn.

And at the end of the day, in a long combat, that 3+ rerollable save will tie down every non-power weapon squad just as well as terminators, but with added cover against power weapons. Against your average green tide, a foot council getting charged will be hit on 4's, wounded on 3's with 4++ rerollable. The jetseers will be hit on 4's, wounded on 4's with 3+ rerollable, sans powa klaw.

90 attacks, 45 hits, 30 wounds, 7.5 dead warlocks.
90 attacks, 45 hits, 22.5 wounds, 2.5 dead jetlocks.

After furious charge wears off, the council fares even better again. There is just no comparison when you really look at what a council CAN do and how a jetbike enhances that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

2. It adds another serpent into a mech list...always good.

Also this. If I were running mech, I'd drop the council completely since they do not fit the style of play suited to Eldar mech. Instead of a council, take an entire extra DAVU WS.

At the end of the day, to jet or not to jet a council is dependent on the rest of your army.

For instance EJBC plus a bunch of Wave Serpent DA and some Fire Prisms. Yes the EJBC is resiliant but it is also a bunch of T4 targets. Not too much different if my opponent has a bunch of MLs or ACs but if he has a bunch of heavy bolters, he is thanking me very much for putting out the bikes as I have just validated them. Also Grey Knights with a boat load of S5 storm bolter fire is going to thank me.

Personnally, a jet bike council is great if I am going to play light with guardian jet bikes, war walkers and vypers but the more I go with the wave serpent, fire prism, falcon route, the less value I see to the EJBC.

Very true DAaddict, an important point about mech is that until serpents start popping, anything under S6 on the table is useless against them. But, I feel its less of an issue of "should I put my council in a serpent or on bikes" and moreso an issue of "should I take a council at all?". In a fast, tough mech list, you don't want or need T3 assault troops stuck on the ground, much less so when it includes your farseer. I'd rather gear the farseer up to support the tanks or bladestormers, and spend the council's points on more of what makes the list strong.

Eldar isn't about taking every "what if" unit, its about forcing your opponent to play the game you want. If that game is "chase me around the board while I shoot rockets at you" then you don't need swords to play it well, you need more rockets.

akaean wrote:

Alerian wrote: 4. Eldrad can go with the council in a serpent....enough said.

This isn't actually as clever as you think it is.

Then you don't know jack about how to use Eldrad properly

All kidding aside, Big E is far more valuable than Fleet for the Council, espeicially in a mech list...he can literally make the army, and the safest place for him is tucked in the Council. Plus, if you want to throw Yriel in with them as well, Eldrad isn't insta-gibbed by his blast like a normal Farseer can be.

Also, with MANY armies using psychic defense these days, a Jetcouncil isn't anywhere near as durable as it used to be...if Fortune gets shut down one time with a hood, kiss a loarge chunk of the squad goodbye. Better to keep the Council tucked in a WS, so that all of your oppenents ant-infantry guns are useless until you decide to get out. Mechdar is one of the Eldar's strongets builds - negating all anti-inftanry weapons- the Jetcouncil undoes that benefit.

Plus, the WS Council has another benefit...it is just as scary to most people as a Jet council, meaning they will be firing as much AT at that Serpent as possible...leaving your Prisms free to blast away. This is why I still like Eldrad + 6 Warlock Council in a Mech list; it forces your oppenent to deal with their WS, when he would rather be killing the 3 Prisms, as well as all your EML armed WSs.

TehScat wrote:
DOOM:
In a jetseer, this lets destructors, TL cats and then witchblades all reroll to wound. Given you'll have auto-hits from templates, 3+ TL on the cats and WS5 in assault with enhance, doom gives a significant boost to wounds on those big units like Nobz and Paladins, before assaulting them, and is essential for the jetseer death star to compete with other such units.

GUIDE:
No use in a jetbike set, unless supporting other squads, so...

I thought it was the other way around? On jetbikes, doom isn't that useful apart for destructors and cats. Witchblades wound on 2+ anyway. Guide though is useful because warlocks aren't that great in CC, in the event that they should charge. Am I missing something here?

Well, warlocks are WS5 in assault, the only drawback to a council in assault is they don't have power weapons. However, guide only works on shooting attacks, and does nothing for assault units at all. The reason Doom is so powerful on a council is that it lets you burn up those huge balls of Nobz/Paladins/etc that are really tough to get wounds on. Without doom and destructors, a council is a tough CC unit that doesn't have power weapons, but after you give them the heavy flamer spam with rerolls to wound, they can compete head-to-head with enemy deathstars.

At the end of the day, fortune is the only power a seer council NEEDS to be effective. A council with nothing but Embolden and Fortune is quite cost effective, and they will still destroy any vehicles they touch in assault. Taking destructors allows them to fulfill an additional role to this, and generally increases their threat, which makes them an even better fire magnet.

I may be wrong but Guide is useless in CC. Its value is only with non-twin-linked weapons. And truly useful with BS 3 units. So guide on vypers or war walkers is truly vicious as the squadron of 21 or 24 S6 shots are going to have a 50% increase in hitting.

Doom OTOH, is most useful where the S of the weapon is equal to the T of the target. So firing Dire Avengers at 30 orks is going to be a lot more devastating with a Doom on the target. Or my favorite Pathfinders who wound on 50/50 basis suddenly wounding 75% of the time and with 33% of those bein AP1, you drool for some termie or MC targets.

Bikes are a hybrid that finds doom and guide less useful. Not useless but definitely lessened. Guide will help all the shuriken cannons you have but be useless for all the shuricats as they are all twin linked. Doom will help the shurikats against T4 targets, but be almost valueless with shuricannon hits as they are wounding on 2+ already.

I find that even running a small council to keep the points down has been ineffective lately.

I am running into more and more psychic hoods and as soon as fortune is failed the council vanishes under fire.

I've switched to using the farseer as a force multiplier rather than a linchpin as is the case in a council. Simply because I feel those points can be better allocated to other areas in the list.

On another not I am finding without a council I have to do a lot more back peddling during the game. Sometimes ending up lined up in the corner shooting away. Loosing a scary CC element lets the opponent do a head long rush in my direction. While I am faster I've run out of table before, especially when talking about units like BA assault marines or other 18" assault range units.

This has me tempted to run Banshees just to have a token CC unit. They play vastly different and I have yet to really test the idea. Not optimistic on Banshees being the end all fix to my Council woes but I figure I owe them a shot.

Alerian wrote:Then you don't know jack about how to use Eldrad properly

All kidding aside, Big E is far more valuable than Fleet for the Council, espeicially in a mech list...he can literally make the army, and the safest place for him is tucked in the Council. Plus, if you want to throw Yriel in with them as well, Eldrad isn't insta-gibbed by his blast like a normal Farseer can be.

Also, with MANY armies using psychic defense these days, a Jetcouncil isn't anywhere near as durable as it used to be...if Fortune gets shut down one time with a hood, kiss a loarge chunk of the squad goodbye. Better to keep the Council tucked in a WS, so that all of your oppenents ant-infantry guns are useless until you decide to get out. Mechdar is one of the Eldar's strongets builds - negating all anti-inftanry weapons- the Jetcouncil undoes that benefit.

Plus, the WS Council has another benefit...it is just as scary to most people as a Jet council, meaning they will be firing as much AT at that Serpent as possible...leaving your Prisms free to blast away. This is why I still like Eldrad + 6 Warlock Council in a Mech list; it forces your oppenent to deal with their WS, when he would rather be killing the 3 Prisms, as well as all your EML armed WSs.

Are you serious right now? Lets break this apart shall we. First you are supporting using eldar Super Duper council. Which of course is Eldrad, Yriel, and 8 warlocks with a variety of powers.

(210) Eldrad
(155) Yriel
(250) 8 Warlocks- embolden, enhance, 3 destructor
(110) Wave Serpent- tl shuri cannon, spirit stones

Total: 725 points!!!

Thats nearly half of your army tied up into a single death star, that is t3 that saves 75% of the time against all weapons, with only 2 power weapon guys and no fleet. This is competitive suicide. Sure it'll smash something right good, but it has trouble getting into assault because it can't assault out of a wave serpent after it moves, and without fleet it can only touch somebody dumb enough to leave a unit 12 inches away from your back hatch. Then if god forbid the enemy shoots down that 725 point wave serpent- you've got a t3 death star walking up the field with a 12 inch assault range. That they didn't focus their fire power on your other wave serpents is small solace when at least a third of your points is rendered usesless and slowly treks up the field with saves little better than a space marine's against small arms fire.

Second. Psychic defense is just as devestating for a foot council. If you are in hood range, you are probably getting ready to assault. Further, not having fortune is worse for a foot council, as it means your deathstar's wave serpent isn't getting a re roll on its flat out. You also don't have the posibility for a 3+ armor, or 3+ cover save if you are caught out in the ooen. Widespread psychic defense isn't just an argument agaisnt jetcouncils, its an argument against ALL councils.

Third. You make it sound like putting t4 units means that they'll make great targets for your opponents small arms fire. And yes, this is true- but you really aren't considering how durable they really are to small arms fire. Lets work backwards to really nail this point in.

a re rolling 3+ save = 2/3 + ([1-2/3]*2/3) = 8/9 chance to save a wound.
1/9 chance for the warlock to fail his save
1/2 chance per shot to wound with an s4 gun (standard small arms)
2/3 chance to hit with bs4

you need 27 bolter shots to put a SINGLE wound onto a seer council. To put this in perspective a 10 man tactical squad with bolters rapid firing puts out 20 shots. A full squad of rapid firing bolters is not guarenteed to kill a single warlock. A full bladestorming Dire Avenger Squad with both Guide and Doom support- one of the most brutal infantry meat grinder squads in the game- will kill approximately 2.5 warlocks. Think about that for a second and let me know if you still think jetseer councils are "vulnerable" to small arms fire.

Fourth, a jetseer council is far more scary than a foot council. It is more durable, it has an 18 inch charge range as opposed to 12 from the back hatch of a wave serpent. You can't slow it down by disabling a single wave serpent, it has a 12 inch normal movement range for placing templates in strategic positions. A foot council- even the super duper eldrad yriel council- look like cuddly kittens in comparison.

Yes I am fully aware that Councils are better in lists with light armor, and Guardian Jetbikes. But as tehscat said earlier- its not so much a choice between what kind of council, but between council and no council. You'd be better off with more fire dragons and wave serpents than trying to put a 200+ point t3 close combat unit into your army. I'm not saying that Eldrad isn't a great unit for a mech list. Just that his role shouldn't be with a Council.

akaean wrote:Are you serious right now?

I am dead serious.
As an Eldar player of over a decade, I have seen plenty of Eldar changes in the meta and touney scenes, and with the changes I have had to adapt. The game has even chaaged a lot since the newest Eldar dex has come out.
Where it used to be that a Jetseer Council Deathstar would win you most games by themselves, now Mechdar is the most competitive build. A Jetseer council adds nothing to such a list. In fact, a Jet Council gives up the greatest strength of Mechdar, wihch is presenting your opponent with nothing but AV 12 skimmers.

Yes...the Jet Council used to reign supreme....USED to. However, Eldar can no longer compete by simply cramming a Deathstar down their opponent's throat.
Nowadays, with all the psychic defense out there, the Jet Council is a poor choice...period. Most top armies that an Eldar player will face will shut down Fortune at least once a game and the Councill will suffer huge casualties and maybe even get wiped.

Now, a WS Council, on the other hand, is still a huge threat and can be viable in a Mechdar list. To some armies it is as big a threat as a Jet Council, to some it is only slightly less scary. The main thing to remember is that in order for your oppnent to kill a WS council before it gets to him, he MUST kill the WS first. This means that if he wants to stop the Council from getting to him, then far fewer shots will be directed at the rest of your WS/Prisms. Remember, the strength of Mechdar is in the tanks, not the guys...not even in the Council itself. The role of a WS Council is to distract from your Prisms and EML sepents, because a Council is still a huge threat to many armies, whether they are on foot or on bikes. It forces your oppnent in to a Catch 22 of either using his anti-tank weapons to stop the scary guys with Witchblades from getting to his lines, or stopping the Big Scary tanks from shooting at his lines. A Jet Council allows him to fire all AT at your tanks, while firing anti-infantry weapons against your Council....there are no Catch 22s or tough decisions to be made.

The reason for Eldrad is not only for his casting and runes, but also for Divination. Combined with an Autarch, or in higher point games Yriel, Eldrad gives you an unmatched tactical advantage. If you are going second and starting in reserves, you gain the benefit of the Autarch/Yriel. If you are going first, Eldrad gives you Divination to re-deploy your heavy hitters after your opponent sets up. True, Eldrad doesn't HAVE to ride with the Council. however his presence with them makes them an even greater threat and a higher priority for your oppoent to kill, thus leaving your scoring WSs with fewer shots direted at them. Eldrad riding with a socring unit of DAs only adds to their threat and makes them a higher priority target. I would much rather have as much AT as possible aimed at my Council and Eldrad, in order to spare my scoring WSs.

The days of the smash-mouth, "I own you with my Seer Council!" playstyle are over, which means that the days of the Jet Council are over, at least unitl a new edition, or a new dex, or both.
Competitive Eldar has come back to its origins of tactical fluidity and forcing your oppenent to make bad choices. A WS Council is the far better option in such an environment.

Alerian, I'm sorry, but you are flat out wrong. Clearly, your local meta is sufficiently broken if they fear any kind of assault from the back of a wave serpent. Jetseer councils may not be as strong as they were before widespread psychic defense made them less resilient, but assaulting troops in serpents hasn't been cool since you couldn't assault after moving them. And when was that? Oh, right.

Ok, so your 450-750 point council in a serpent (depending on composition and Yriel) gets fortuned up and 24" flat out's up the field. It still has to face forward, since trying to position the rear hatch remotely near the enemy will allow them to get to your rear armor. You're about 15" from his table edge, pressing his deployment zone, to be as threatening as possible without allowing him to take a rear armor shot. You're at least 1" away from enemy models, and the serpent is about 4-5" long, meaning the closest an enemy can possibly be to the rear access point is over 6". You've got energy shields, a 4++ fortuned cover save, and the rest of your army is lurking behind, advancing and shooting.

Your opponents turn comes. He moves 15" (generous - 2" disembark, 6" move, 6" assault) from your rear hatch. Your 450-750 point council is completely worthless next turn. He shoots your dragon wagons, probably sans fortune, and stuns a prism or two. No need to shoot the council's serpent, it is of no threat at all.

Your turn, Alerian. Your big guns are shaken or stunned, your dragon wagons can't deliver this turn, and your council serpent will need to move (meaning no assault) or disembark (and still no assault). WHAT DO YOU DO?

-----------------------------

At least the jetbike council, regardless of the presence of psychic hoods, is an immediate and undeniable threat to anything within 18" at any time. It can't be stunned, it can't be danced around, and scoring 1 "wound" on it won't remove 66% of its mobility.

OH RIGHT PSYCHIC HOODS AREN'T EVERYWHERE ANYWAY LOL. Librarian in transport? Lucky my bikes move faster than any space marine vehicle. Deep strike/gating librarian? Not assaulting my possibly-fortuneless council. Oh hey, I'm threatening everything more than 12" from your librarian with my council, and my fire dragons are threatening your librarian. Wanna hop out and risk the meltas to have a 50% chance at removing some of my council's defenses? Go for it.

Oh look, a guard army. Guess I'll just dominate their entire tank line with my 18" turn 2 assault that cannot be stopped by any mere mortal. What's that, foot council? You're in a serpent and you got immobized because you whiffed one roll? I'm sure those pie plates will be nice to you after your flat-out serpent crashed. Oh, pie plates on the jetbike council? 3 hits, tops, flying bases are cool. Average less than 1 unsaved wound? Why thank you.

Check it out, Orks! Man, those kans/wagons/greenskins sure look scary, but, oh look, no psychic hoods. Jetbike council lining up an 18" multiassault on the kanwall/battlewagon spam, or saving it for after the dragons do their thing? The choice is mine! Oh hi there foot council, what's that, getting charged after they Waaugh'd? Sucks to be you guys, I heard they wound you on a 2+ and you have 4+ saves. At least you strike first.

---------------------------------

Eldrad 210
6 warlocks, enhance, embolden 170
Serpent, stones, TL cannon 110
Total 490

Eldrad 210
10 avengers, exarch, bladestorm, dual cats 152
Serpent, TL EML 120
Total 482

The avengers are scoring. The avengers don't need to set up for a whole turn before maybe, MAYBE getting a 12" assault off. The avengers are, in almost every way, tougher because of the additional wounds, despite having no invulnerable save. Their serpent has a better gun. They can deliver their pain anywhere within 32" of the serpent's initial position, and if its within 24" then doom will enhance it greatly. And you save 8 points.

Alerian wrote:The days of the smash-mouth, "I own you with my Seer Council!" playstyle are over, which means that the days of the Jet Council are over, at least unitl a new edition, or a new dex, or both.

Unfortunately for you, you missed the memo that the days of the foot seer council were never around to begin with. Very few lists run a jetbike council as an army mainstay and deathstar, but they are still viable. A psychic hood greatly impedes them, but everything has a counter. If I deploy against a psychic hood, I don't just forfeit, I try to knock out the hood and push a different flank. And even then, my 600-odd point 11-model jetbike council is highly effective in 90%+ games, but by no means do I rely entirely on them to win the game. I find, often, that their presence, mobilty and perceived threat allow me to use them to enhance the effectiveness of units like my night spinners, who rely on enemy units moving closely together to cause maximum damage.

--------------------------------

So Alerian. Its your move. How will your viable "huge threat" serpent council help this turn? Their serpent is good to go, hasn't even had a shot at it, they can go anywhere. They just can't do anything when they get there. I guess you can shoot shuriken pistols if you move the serpent and disembark.

TehScat:
By your post I can see that you assume that a WS council's only, or at least primary pupose is assault..... Youre premise is very flawed indeed.

A WS Council + Eldrad ins't a Deathstar assualt beast. Sure, it can do well in assault, but that isn't it's only, or even primary role. A properly built one is a well rounded unit with multiple capapbilities, complete with Destructors and Singing Spears.

This means that they are a threat to just about everything (infantry with destructors + Doom, and vehicles with guide + Signing Spears) in a short range firefight. Edlrad allows for even more goodness in this sort of close range firefight role with options to cast anytihng, with 3 abilities a turn.

Suddenly a 12" move and 2" disembark is a lot more threatening when you know they are firing 3-4 Destructors backed by Doom, or chucking 3-6 Guided S9 shots at the side/rear of your tanks. Heck, Eldrad might even cast Eldritch Storm, just to spin a tank for a side/rear shot..

You think too narrowly, my friend, if you think their only role is "COUNCIL SMASH YOU IN ASSAULT...RAAR!"

While everything else in the Eldar codex is specialized with only 1 or 2 roles, a well built, well rounded WS Council + Eldrad is the one unit that can threaten almost anything, while also adding to the AV12 saturation of Mechdar.

Build and use them wisely as a Swiss Army Knife, and smart opponents WILL start to worry about what you are planning to do with them...

Alerian... you still haven't answered

why it is a foot council can do any of that better than a jetseer council.

I read your post and all I can think is... gee thats nice, but can't a jetseer council do that too- except better? And for about the same cost too, since you are spending the big bucks for both Eldrad and Yriel.

akaean wrote:Alerian... you still haven't answered

why it is a foot council can do any of that better than a jetseer council.

I read your post and all I can think is... gee thats nice, but can't a jetseer council do that too- except better? And for about the same cost too, since you are spending the big bucks for both Eldrad and Yriel.

I have answered MANY times:
1: They add another WS for AV12 saturation...a Jetseer does not
2. They can stay in said WS, rendering all opposing anti-infantry weapons uselss until they disembark...a Jetseer provides a target for such weapons.
3. They are not as reliant on Fortune, since they are safe unitl disembarking, thus making Hoods less effective against them...a Jetseer cannot say the same.
4. They can cast and go flat out in the same turn (guiding a prism, Fortuning or Dooming a unit) adding to their flexibility.....a Jetseer cannot cast and turbo
5. They can take Eldrad with them for complete use of any power they want, if armed for a variety of roles....there is no way anyone will pay for a Jetseer to have access to all Farseer powers
6. Because of their versatlility they can threaten just about anything, forcing your opponent to use AT against their WS to stop/slow them down, thus sparing shots on Prisms/scoring WSs.... No one is going to waste AT fire at the Jetseers, meaning all AT is still going into Prisms, etc.

As for Yriel, I only mentioned him because some people like to take him in large point games over a normal Autarch. At 2k+ games, his cost ratio isn't much more than the normal Autarch that you were already taking in a Mechdar list for reserves roles...if you take him, he can go with a WS council and add to their flexibility and threat...he cannot go with a Jetseer.

As you can see, there are many advantages of the WS council, if you use them in a multi-pupose role, in a Mechdar list. The Jetseers only adavantage is that it is more of a Deathstar Assault unit...unfortunately, it is not the uber-unit it used to be.

Think outside the box and use them creatively for a variety of roles and you will discover the true joys of using a WS Council + Eldrad in a Mechdar list

Well, there are many pros and cons here.

A Jetseer Council has two downsides that should not be overlooked.
If the army goes second, the enemy can shoot the Council which will not be fortuned in this phase.
If the army is in reserve, the Council cannot be fortuned when it enters the battle field.

So players of a Jetseer Council have to live with it.

you need 27 bolter shots to put a SINGLE wound onto a seer council. To put this in perspective a 10 man tactical squad with bolters rapid firing puts out 20 shots. A full squad of rapid firing bolters is not guarenteed to kill a single warlock. A full bladestorming Dire Avenger Squad with both Guide and Doom support- one of the most brutal infantry meat grinder squads in the game- will kill approximately 2.5 warlocks. Think about that for a second and let me know if you still think jetseer councils are "vulnerable" to small arms fire.

Still getting back to speed in the game. Can you explain all their saving throws? Are they getting two saves plus an additional from Fortune?

Netglen wrote:

you need 27 bolter shots to put a SINGLE wound onto a seer council. To put this in perspective a 10 man tactical squad with bolters rapid firing puts out 20 shots. A full squad of rapid firing bolters is not guarenteed to kill a single warlock. A full bladestorming Dire Avenger Squad with both Guide and Doom support- one of the most brutal infantry meat grinder squads in the game- will kill approximately 2.5 warlocks. Think about that for a second and let me know if you still think jetseer councils are "vulnerable" to small arms fire.

Still getting back to speed in the game. Can you explain all their saving throws? Are they getting two saves plus an additional from Fortune?

No they have one save plus the re-roll when the unit is being fortuned in the current turn.
Moreover, Jetseers have an armor save coming from the jetbike.

wuestenfux wrote:

Netglen wrote:

you need 27 bolter shots to put a SINGLE wound onto a seer council. To put this in perspective a 10 man tactical squad with bolters rapid firing puts out 20 shots. A full squad of rapid firing bolters is not guarenteed to kill a single warlock. A full bladestorming Dire Avenger Squad with both Guide and Doom support- one of the most brutal infantry meat grinder squads in the game- will kill approximately 2.5 warlocks. Think about that for a second and let me know if you still think jetseer councils are "vulnerable" to small arms fire.

Still getting back to speed in the game. Can you explain all their saving throws? Are they getting two saves plus an additional from Fortune?

No they have one save plus the re-roll when the unit is being fortuned in the current turn.
Moreover, Jetseers have an armor save coming from the jetbike.

So they a choice between their ++ save or the save from being in a jetbike? If their locked in CC from last turn, do the still get a save from being on a jetbike or do they need to use their ++ save?

Netglen wrote:

wuestenfux wrote:

Netglen wrote:

you need 27 bolter shots to put a SINGLE wound onto a seer council. To put this in perspective a 10 man tactical squad with bolters rapid firing puts out 20 shots. A full squad of rapid firing bolters is not guarenteed to kill a single warlock. A full bladestorming Dire Avenger Squad with both Guide and Doom support- one of the most brutal infantry meat grinder squads in the game- will kill approximately 2.5 warlocks. Think about that for a second and let me know if you still think jetseer councils are "vulnerable" to small arms fire.

Still getting back to speed in the game. Can you explain all their saving throws? Are they getting two saves plus an additional from Fortune?

No they have one save plus the re-roll when the unit is being fortuned in the current turn.
Moreover, Jetseers have an armor save coming from the jetbike.

So they a choice between their ++ save or the save from being in a jetbike? If their locked in CC from last turn, do the still get a save from being on a jetbike or do they need to use their ++ save?

They can use just one save if being wounded - whatever save is more appropriate.

TehScat wrote:
DOOM:
In a jetseer, this lets destructors, TL cats and then witchblades all reroll to wound. Given you'll have auto-hits from templates, 3+ TL on the cats and WS5 in assault with enhance, doom gives a significant boost to wounds on those big units like Nobz and Paladins, before assaulting them, and is essential for the jetseer death star to compete with other such units.

On foot, doom supports avengers and banshees with their bladestorm and power weapons, which is where these units draw a large amount of their strength and threat from. Banshees particularly are unthreatening without doom support.

However, in the mech phase of the game, assuming you're even in doom range and there is a non-vehicle unit to doom that you ALSO plan on hitting, you're probably only hitting it with EML blasts and maybe the odd scatter laser. Consiquently, doom has much less value in a heavy-serpent list where the banshee/bladestorm/template fire is less concentrated.

Going to have to disagree here.

I use *only* Doom in my 6-serpent, 2-3 falcon army, and never use banshees or bladestorm.

-With 24" range and no line of sight required, there's nearly always something worth dooming in range at the start of the turn.

-Doom is most useful in a mech army for debuffing a T5+ monstrous creature, so that your massed str6 shooting can torrent it to death more easily. Daemon princes, tyranid big bugs, C'tan, units of wraithguard--all go down much quicker with doom on them.

-If you're going to shoot fire dragons at a hard non-vehicle deathstar unit and need every hit to count--even if you're wounding on 2s--Doom them first. Because there's usually only one deathstar and your whole army gets to reroll wounds on them, Doom is ideal. I'd rather wound four paladins or FNP sanguinary guard with fusion shots than three because I rolled a 1 on one to-wound roll. The odd T7-8 creature (Talos, wraithlord, C'tan) also goes down to fusion guns much more easily if they're doomed first.

Even if there aren't any big things available to doom, it makes displacing that odd unit of marines or whatever with shooting (even though you're wounding on 2s) that much easier. Eldar vehicle shooting isn't that accurate, so having 97% of your hits wound instead of 86% is nothing to sneeze at.

Agreed Flavius - Doom has its role in mech. However, the point I was making is that in that initial stage of the game, where its ~8 tanks vs ~11 tanks (since Eldar is always outgunned), Doom isn't in range and/or can't affect vehicles. In a pure mech list, where there are no disembarking infantry other than dragons (pure DAVU serpent armies), Doom is still less effective than in an army with bladestorming avengers or the like - the fact is, those 8 missiles or equivalent in scatter laser shots will not benefit from doom to the same extent as two full units of avengers, bladestorming for 64 shots, will.

Doom is still a very real option in a mech list - assuming your farseer is in a forward vehicle and has the 24" range, Doom can be more powerful than guide on a falcon in some cases. Particularly with a MC or deathstar unit that has just stumbled out of their transport/cover. One must weigh up the value of having a guideseer with RoWarding safely tucked into a EML falcon at the back, compared to a considerably more vulnerable doomseer in a DAVU serpent in doom range. Both have their pros and cons, it comes down to what the list need more overall.

Alerian...

Alerian wrote:A WS Council + Eldrad ins't a Deathstar assualt beast. Sure, it can do well in assault, but that isn't it's only, or even primary role. A properly built one is a well rounded unit with multiple capapbilities, complete with Destructors and Singing Spears.

This means that they are a threat to just about everything (infantry with destructors + Doom, and vehicles with guide + Signing Spears) in a short range firefight. Edlrad allows for even more goodness in this sort of close range firefight role with options to cast anytihng, with 3 abilities a turn.

Suddenly a 12" move and 2" disembark is a lot more threatening when you know they are firing 3-4 Destructors backed by Doom, or chucking 3-6 Guided S9 shots at the side/rear of your tanks. Heck, Eldrad might even cast Eldritch Storm, just to spin a tank for a side/rear shot..

You think too narrowly, my friend, if you think their only role is "COUNCIL SMASH YOU IN ASSAULT...RAAR!"

While everything else in the Eldar codex is specialized with only 1 or 2 roles, a well built, well rounded WS Council + Eldrad is the one unit that can threaten almost anything, while also adding to the AV12 saturation of Mechdar.

OK, so what you're saying... is that putting a well-over 500 point "not a deathstar" HQ into a single serpent, and using it as a multiskilled, multiuse firing/assault platform, is ideal?

Eldrad 210
7 Warlocks, 1 enhance, 1 embolden, 4 destructor, 5 spears 250
Serpent, stones, TL cannon 110

Total 570

VERSUS...

10 storm guardians, warlock, destructor, 2 flamers 127
Serpent, TL cannon 100

5 fire dragons 80
Serpent, TL cannon 100

5 fire dragons 80
Serpent, TL cannon 100

Total 587

That's right, for 17 more points, we can triple your "AV 12 saturation", almost triple your body count, and do ALL of the roles the council could do, at once! OK, so you don't have mind war... but you can blow up 2 different vehicles, AND flame the contents of one of them! And in a mech list, what matters most is how many serpents you can get, right? Oh yeah, and one of those serpents has a scoring unit in it, too.

Alerian, you haven't got me convinced. Give me a list, 2000 points or under, where your 500+ point jack-of-all-trades council plays a role that is important enough to justify the loss of probably TWO entire serpents in a mech list. I'm trying to, but I just can't seem to do it...

Eldrad's RaptorJesus council, serpent 570

5 dragons, serpent, TL cannon 180
5 dragons, serpent, TL cannon 180
5 dragons, serpent, TL cannon 180

5 avengers, serpent, TL EML 180
5 avengers, serpent, TL EML 180
5 avengers, serpent, TL EML 180

prism 115
prism 115
night spinner 115

Total 1995.

VERSUS...

Eldrad 210

5 dragons, serpent, TL cannon 180
5 dragons, serpent, TL cannon 180
5 dragons, serpent, TL cannon 180

5 avengers, serpent, TL EML 180
5 avengers, serpent, TL EML 180
5 avengers, serpent, TL EML 180
5 avengers, serpent, TL EML 180
5 avengers, serpent, TL EML 180

prism 115
prism 115
night spinner 115

Total 1995

Replace the council serpent with two DAVU serpents, keep Eldrad's power support, net gain is a whole extra serpent and two EML shots per turn, at the cost of turning Eldrad into a suicide foot-squad that can serve the purpose of either a fire dragon squad or an enhanced storm guardian flamer squad before being shot to death as T3 elves are in a sea of AV12 tanks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just to prove a point regarding the resilience of the foot council, assuming they have fortune, after they have disembarked and shot whatever it is they shoot. Lets keep it simple and put them against some space marines.

Assume that, given you're literally in their face, and you're facing 2000 points of marines, and you've just delivered 1/4 of your army into rapid fire bolter range, he thinks it may be worth unloading a bolterback or two and turning the guns on the council.

3 tactical squads, 30 models, rapid fire bolters:
60 shots, 40 hits, 26.7 wounds, 6.7 unsaved wounds after fortuned rune armor.

3 bolterbacks, TL heavy bolters and storm bolters:
HB: 9 shots, 8 hits, 6.7 wounds, 1.7 unsaved wounds after fortuned rune armor.
SB: 6 shots, 4 hits, 2.7 wounds, 0.7 unsaved wounds after fortuned rune armor.

Now, for simplicities sake, and to defend the squad, out of the ~36 wounds you take, you'd need to put at least 5 on Eldrad, and due to his 3++ save, he will only likely take 1 wound if any. However, the ~31 on the council will be sufficient, with average rolls, to kill more than the 7 members in the squad. Now, given you're using a mech army, and all those bolters really had nothing else they could hurt, he has lost absolutely 0 potential, other than having to disembark 3 bolterbacks. Assuming he took the standard meltagun ML combo, I believe each of those squads comes out to 255 points or so, and even though frag missiles would have been more damage, they're harder to model, and bolters do more damage to a council than meltaguns anyway.

What I'm trying to say is, you can lose your HQ deathstar, 1/4 of your army, to small arms fire that is relatively common among standard troops in a 2k battle, in a single turn of shooting. With Eldrad standing, he can either be assaulted, ML'd, or pretty much ignored while you focus on the important things, like prisms, and not a tough IC with a 3++ fortuned save who is fielding 2 power weapon attacks and a S3 blast power. If double doom would be an issue, I'm sure some TH/SS termies would mop him up quick smart.

5 TH/SS termies, assaulting Eldrad:
SM turn: 15 attacks, 7.5 hits, 6.25 wounds.
Eldar turn: 10 attacks, 5 hits, 4.2 wounds.

Since Eldrad doesn't have Eternal Warrior, anything over S8 will ID him, and the odds of him failing at least one of those saves is around 71%, its likely that Eldrad will be turned to soup by any decent amount of S8+ hits, whether that is from termies, MLs, lascannons, meltas, whatever. Fortune makes him hard to kill, but one bad roll and he's toast. ICs tend to die when their squad gets pureed by bolters.

TehScar;
You keep starting off with a wrong premise; therefore, your arguement is flawed.

I NEVER said that a Council is mandatory...EVER.

This discussion was about comparing the benefits of a WS Council to a Jetweer Council. This assumes that a player wants to run a council of some sort.

All of my posts have been to show how a WS Council is superior to a Jetseer Council in a Mechdar list, nothing more.

Thus, your entire last post was superfelous and added nothing to this discussion. Please, stay on the subject and stop trying to create arguements where there are none. Thank You.

P.S.
As for convincing you; I have no intention of that.
You have obviously made up your mind, and no amount of discussion will change it.
My posts are here for others who wish to use a Council and are willing to look beyond a "smash mouth" playstyle and seek to use then as a multipurpose threat in a Mech list, since Jetseers offer very little to the overall playstyle of a Mechdar list, and are similarly costed.

You keep claiming that I am seeking an argument, but all I want is an answer. In what situation would you take a council over more serpents? You say that a WS council is better than a jetseer council in mech, and I disagree, but more importantly I want to know why a council of any kind, format or size belongs in a mech list. It goes against the playstyle completely.

Its like you're telling me that a Ferrari is better than a Porsche in an offroad, 2000 mile race. Even though the Porsche would be better due to having better fuel consumption and a higher wheel base, the point is moot because you're taking the wrong damn class of transport to begin with, and neither suits the role well. No reasonable person would take a luxury sports car on a race like this, and although the hyperbole is there to make my point, the same applies to this debate. There is no reason to take a council, at all, in a mech list.

Alerian wrote:As you can see, there are many advantages of the WS council, if you use them in a multi-pupose role, in a Mechdar list.

Alerian wrote:I NEVER said that a Council is mandatory...EVER.

This discussion was about comparing the benefits of a WS Council to a Jetweer Council. This assumes that a player wants to run a council of some sort.

You seem to have recommended their use, saying they provide benefits to a mech list, but then you had a change of heart and said its only if they want a council...

However, as I did say I disagree with you on the point about the WS council being superior, I have provided evidence, scenarios, strategies for and against both configurations, and all you've said in return is that:

1) The serpent council is better because you get a serpent.
2) The jetseer council fails in psychic hood range
3) The jetseer council is exclusive to an old, outdated "smash mouth" playstyle.

Now, for point 1, I raise the argument that if your opponent is going to shoot his anti-tank at your serpents, he's probably going to start here. Now, if he has first turn, you have no saving throw anyway, so its exactly as tough as any other serpent, at which point it will most likely be shot until immobilized or wrecked, where your council is effectively rendered useless unless they steal another serpent. Also, assuming you do get to move flat-out and have fortune up, the wave serpent's 4++ fortuned save affords the same protection against a shot capable of harming it as the jetbike council's 4++ fortuned rune armor does. However, where the jetbike council fails a save and loses a model from the squad, but is otherwise completely mobile and effective, the serpent's demise will result in the loss of its council's mobility AND protection, rendering the exposed council far more vulnerable to any and all fire than the innately tougher jetbike council ever were. And if they survive, they can only move 6" per turn, 7-12" if Eldrad doesn't use his shooting powers, and forgo assaulting.

I never understood your obsession with point 2 - you've said several times that jetseer councils are fragile and perish in the presence of a hood, and yet I have already said that not only are hoods limited ranged items that can be avoided, if your opponent fields one at all, but that the hood is equally devastating to your WS council, if not moreso due to their inherently lower toughness and saves from being on foot.

Alerian wrote:They are not as reliant on Fortune, since they are safe unitl disembarking, thus making Hoods less effective against them...a Jetseer cannot say the same.

But without fortune on their serpent, they are as tough as a serpent. And until they disembark, they're not doing anything that makes them "strong" as a council. And once they do disembark, they are more fragile than a jetseer council, with or without fortune, within or away from a psychic hood's presence.

Finally, you keep saying that the WS council is more flexible than a jetseer council. Your basis for this is that (a) Eldrad has all powers, and is generally superior to normal farseers, and (b) that the wave serpent is of great benefit itself. However, these points contradict - Eldrad's flexibility in powers cannot be fully used until he disembarks from the protection of the serpent, and in order for fortune to affect the serpent, it needs to move flat out, hence the serpent itself cannot shoot. If the wave serpent stops moving 24" in order to shoot, it is a sitting duck. If Eldrad gets out of the serpent to use his storm or mind war, he's a sitting duck and so is his squad. Sure, you can turbo boost around all day and double-doom and fortune, or double guide and doom, however you feel, but you could do that equally well in a DAVU serpent and save 200 points.

But then, you also said this with regard specifically to WS councils in comparison to jetseer councils:

Alerian wrote:A WS Council + Eldrad ins't a Deathstar assualt beast. Sure, it can do well in assault, but that isn't it's only, or even primary role. A properly built one is a well rounded unit with multiple capapbilities, complete with Destructors and Singing Spears.

This means that they are a threat to just about everything (infantry with destructors + Doom, and vehicles with guide + Signing Spears) in a short range firefight. Edlrad allows for even more goodness in this sort of close range firefight role with options to cast anytihng, with 3 abilities a turn.

Suddenly a 12" move and 2" disembark is a lot more threatening when you know they are firing 3-4 Destructors backed by Doom, or chucking 3-6 Guided S9 shots at the side/rear of your tanks. Heck, Eldrad might even cast Eldritch Storm, just to spin a tank for a side/rear shot..

You think too narrowly, my friend, if you think their only role is "COUNCIL SMASH YOU IN ASSAULT...RAAR!"

While everything else in the Eldar codex is specialized with only 1 or 2 roles, a well built, well rounded WS Council + Eldrad is the one unit that can threaten almost anything, while also adding to the AV12 saturation of Mechdar.

However, you assume that for some reason, these abilities are exclusive to the WS council? A jetseer council can take the same destructors, the same spears, they can pack guide or doom along with fortune if they wish, and threaten infantry and armor just as well. However, where the WS council has the advantage of Eldrad's powers to aid their shooting on the turn they come busting out of their serpent, the jetbike council can do everything the WS council can, AND THEN ASSAULT WITH THE FULL MIGHT OF A SEER COUNCIL, in the same turn.

Where your WS council's 12" move then 2" disembark can be scary, they are limited to flaming or spearing one target, and then they will stand there while the rest of your opponent's army prepares to sodomize them in whatever manner they feel appropriate at the time, the jetbike council can use the same doom+destructors on an opposing infantry deathstar, or spear spam a transport, but then follow up these actions with an assault, or more likely, a multiassault that will not only deal far more damage than the shooting, but also protect them entirely from the enemy's shooting if but a single squad they engage survives the combat. And at the end of the day, while being so flexible with spears and destructors and dooms and such, the jetseer council CAN bring that assault force to bear IN ADDITION to the shooting. The WS council must sit in the open, at the mercy of the opponent.

Alerian wrote:Competitive Eldar has come back to its origins of tactical fluidity and forcing your oppenent to make bad choices. A WS Council is the far better option in such an environment.

A WS Council is the far more restricted option in such an environment. Competitive Eldar stems from manipulating your opponent's choices by playing a pro-active, fast style that you force them to respond to. A WS Council is less threatening in every sense - in order to keep their fortune, their serpent must remain passive. In order to assault, their serpent cannot move. In order to deliver their spears or templates, they must leave the serpent. For a jetbike council, their protection and mobility is part of every model, not the shell they hide in passively, and there is no delay preceding their assault. Any unit within 18" of the jetbike council, infantry, tank, scout, squadron, whatever, is at immediate risk of powers, shooting and assault. For the WS council, they cannot threaten to assault, so they cannot become locked in combat, nor deliver arguably their greatest asset, their witchblades. They have half the threat index of a jetseer council, and they sacrifice their mobility and protection in order to deliver that half-strength power.