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Are all the RWI club as delusional, paranoid, insular and bigoted as this guy?

http://www.rollwithit.org.uk/?p=2350

Apparently Brian is a high ranking member of the RWI admin, and I would assume the other members parrott his views.

Do the KIA really want to sully ourselves with these people?

My Local club is currently trying to organise a Interclub game day, and one guy is adament about it being a bad idea, and as such, PMed me, my mate, and the Admin of the site with this message.

I'm just curious on whether this makes the guy a Bigot or not...

CAN I JUST SAY, there seems to be some confusion.

I am not the guy accusing him of being the Bigot!!!

Guy J who wrote the message is abusing Guy B who wrote the blog post of being a bigot. I'm Guy R who has posted here to get other people's views on whether Guy B is a bigot or not.

Where does the bigotry come in?

Just seemed like a rant about a gaming club.

Whenever you get a bunch of people together, there will be people that don't get along for some reason.

No, not everyone is a jerk.

If one person doesn't want to play, but the rest do, play.


Enjoy yourself, man.

Monster Rain wrote:Where does the bigotry come in?

Just seemed like a rant about a gaming club.

I meant is he right, is Brian a bigot for hating Fantasy

Uh, he doesn't like other systems because he feels it causes dilution. If that's bigotry, then that word doesn't mean what I think it means.

That's not really being a bigot. Let me tell you a story. I have these two friends. One is a guy I've known for about the last six years and went to school with, and the other guy is my roommate, whom I've known for about three years.

Guy 1 likes playing games. Video games, board games, war games, tabletop RPGS, you name it. He has at least 5 PS3 games and 2 Xbox 360 games he's never unwrapped, about $200 in unpainted FW models, four 40k armies in total, bookshelves full of board games that get played once a month, and at least 5 RPG systems I can think of that he and I have gone through reading and working out the nuances of the systems, but have never actually played.

Guy 2 likes playing games. He occasionally plays computer/xbox games with me, enjoys Dung...err, Pathfinder, and plays 40k. He is adamant against starting any other wargames, because he recognizes that there's only so much time in the day and 40k takes up enough of that time as is. Any more dedication to wargaming would detract from the other elements in his life.

Guess which guy, at the end of the day, feels more fulfilled by his hobby?

Bigot? No. Jerk? Yes.

He doesn't want other people to play other games because then not everyone will want to play his game.

He doesn't appear to hate fantasy for any reasons other than the fact that it gives people another game to play.

Also, I'm pretty confident that no game store ever went out of business by offering more games, more events, and appealing to a larger community. But I could be wrong on that front. Look at how well GW stores are doing.

Guy 2 ?

I know this Brian and he is one cool dude and i also know the guy who posted the above message.

I know who i think is the bigger loser.

The thing is us a Roll wit it want the meet and so do 90% of the other club it's just a shame one guy spoiling it all.

Additionally, I don't like fantasy, simply because any time I could be playing it, it would be with the same people I play Pathfinder with. I enjoy Pathfinder more, and it fills the same thematic niche, so why dump the money/time into Fantasy?

I'm amused by the assumption in the OP's quoted text that the management of a club will share the same views on miniatures games! I'm quite certain that, if polled, they would all express quite different views from each other, because running a club isn't just like herding cats, it's like being a cat who herds cats.

Brian isn't a bigot. That's a highly pejorative term to use, to start with. Even if it wasn't, and he was exposing a personal hatred for WFB or the fantasy genre in general, it would still not be bigotry. For bigotry, one would have to express a negative opinion of a class of people (players of WFB) with no reference to the explicit details that define the class. Suggesting that all WFB players smell or are intellectually sub-normal or should be forced to play their game in the car park, where "proper" humans can't see them, would be bigotry.

However, he is guilty of expressing perfectly sensible views in a way that inspires antipathy: using the Whingehammer logo and declaring himself to "hate" fantasy is silly. His actual argument - that players of 40k should consider fully exploring the breadth of the game before starting a whole new game - is sensible. But he could equally well have made the same argument about Flames of War, Infinity, Malifaux, Dystopian Wars or any of the other tempting games out there.

R.

8th ed fantasy sucks so I don't blame him.

Is he a biggot? no, not unless he hates the PEOPLE that play fantasy and not just the game itself.
Actually it didn't sound like he hated fantasy alone. The context made it seem like he hates any game except the one he's playing.
@daedalus your two stories are very good examples of the kind of mindset that that guy has. The only difference I see is
the individual in the blog post was so against dilution he did not want anyone playing fantasy.

Bloodhorror wrote:

Are all the RWI club as delusional, paranoid, insular and bigoted as this guy?

http://www.rollwithit.org.uk/?p=2350

Apparently Brian is a high ranking member of the RWI admin, and I would assume the other members parrott his views.

Do the KIA really want to sully ourselves with these people?

My Local club is currently trying to organise a Interclub game day, and one guy is adament about it being a bad idea, and as such, PMed me, my mate, and the Admin of the site with this message.

I'm just curious on whether this makes the guy a Bigot or not...

Uh...


Bigot is the wrong word your looking for. TFG? Yes.

Aside from the fac that he's being a mutt, your club should play what they want to as long as they are having fun. YOU should take this guy aside and school him to the grand strategy of a game club.
Which is of course, to play games. You start cutting on players because of thier games, and your going to find your club getting a rep because of toolbag.

Of course, you can all start embracing thie joker's gobblygook, in which case, you ALL can be judged by this mutt's rather one sided prospective.

When I read that incessant blatehr, I was kinda taken aback to what he was really trying to get across. What does he think he is doing anyway? He attached your clubs name to his diatribe, and in that case, he's speaking for you.

Tell him that if he wants to be a too kool for school kid, that he needs to take your clubs name off of the rant, or else your whole club gets the name of being the house of Tool.

Even if the game sucks, so what. If a cat wants to play it, or even a faction of your club wants to play it, are you willing to cut them out of the whole because of it? Why would you do something like that?

Bloodhorror wrote:


My Local club is currently trying to organise a Interclub game day, and one guy is adament about it being a bad idea, and as such, PMed me, my mate, and the Admin of the site with this message.

I'm just curious on whether this makes the guy a Bigot or not...

No, its you who is an oversensative NAMECALLING, REALLY?. Bigotry? Really? So he hates clubs. Or fantasy.

He's got a point- diluting focus for clubs can cause them to crater.

carmachu wrote:
He's got a point- diluting focus for clubs can cause them to crater.

It could also cause them to grow thanks to introducing new blood.

The only time I've seen a problem caused by diversifying a club is when someone has a negative reaction or opinion to it.

precinctomega wrote:I'm amused by the assumption in the OP's quoted text that the management of a club will share the same views on miniatures games! I'm quite certain that, if polled, they would all express quite different views from each other, because running a club isn't just like herding cats, it's like being a cat who herds cats.

Brian isn't a bigot. That's a highly pejorative term to use, to start with. Even if it wasn't, and he was exposing a personal hatred for WFB or the fantasy genre in general, it would still not be bigotry. For bigotry, one would have to express a negative opinion of a class of people (players of WFB) with no reference to the explicit details that define the class. Suggesting that all WFB players smell or are intellectually sub-normal or should be forced to play their game in the car park, where "proper" humans can't see them, would be bigotry.

However, he is guilty of expressing perfectly sensible views in a way that inspires antipathy: using the Whingehammer logo and declaring himself to "hate" fantasy is silly. His actual argument - that players of 40k should consider fully exploring the breadth of the game before starting a whole new game - is sensible. But he could equally well have made the same argument about Flames of War, Infinity, Malifaux, Dystopian Wars or any of the other tempting games out there.

This.

Grot 6 wrote:
Even if the game sucks, so what. If a cat wants to play it, or even a faction of your club wants to play it, are you willing to cut them out of the whole because of it? Why would you do something like that?

How about to keep the club together and intact? Let me tell you a story.

Once upon a time there was a game club near me. One we forged after getting screwed around by game stores, so we formed our own. We played solidly one system, with a smattering of the second one. We played every Wen and Saturday, and some pick up games other days as folks seen fit. Then came along the "other games" and suddenly folks stopped showing up on Wen and Saturday. And started going other days. Then when folks showed up on some days and no one wanted to play the game we all got togetehr folk, eventually folks started getting angry and eventually left the club.

The club's doors closed permanently March. After being started WAY back n 2004 as an independent club. Dillution can have a negative impact on a club.

CAN I JUST SAY, there seems to be some confusion.

I am not the guy accusing him of being the Bigot!!!

Guy J who wrote the message is abusing Guy B who wrote the blog post of being a bigot. I'm Guy R who has posted here to get other people's views on whether Guy B is a bigot or not.

So thank you Carmachu for paying good attention and calling me a pansy <.<

carmachu wrote:

Grot 6 wrote:
Even if the game sucks, so what. If a cat wants to play it, or even a faction of your club wants to play it, are you willing to cut them out of the whole because of it? Why would you do something like that?

How about to keep the club together and intact? Let me tell you a story.

Once upon a time there was a game club near me. One we forged after getting screwed around by game stores, so we formed our own. We played solidly one system, with a smattering of the second one. We played every Wen and Saturday, and some pick up games other days as folks seen fit. Then came along the "other games" and suddenly folks stopped showing up on Wen and Saturday. And started going other days. Then when folks showed up on some days and no one wanted to play the game we all got togetehr folk, eventually folks started getting angry and eventually left the club.

The club's doors closed permanently March. After being started WAY back n 2004 as an independent club. Dillution can have a negative impact on a club.

I find it hard to believe dilution can really have that much of an impact. If people want to play something different, why not? Carmachu, what you seem to be describing is simply a lack of organisation and dilution of time, not game systems. If the club was ONLY Wed and Sat then people wouldn't be missing each other and gaming opportunities.

There's a whole heap of reasons to allow more than one system:

1) Your club will appeal to a broader group of people, rather than one subset. People who might otherwise join your club might be put off (or excluded!) because they don't play the right system.
2) You may retain players who get bored of one system, as they move onto another system instead of just leaving the club.
3) If I arranged a game with a mate at the club, and was told I couldn't play because I wasn't playing 40k, I'd be disgruntled and looking for another club.
4) If I play 40K and WFB and I have a choice between a club that only allows 40K and one that allows you to play anything you damn well please, I'll be picking the latter.

You only need two players playing a given system to have a game. Anyone that plays 40K and another game system, will be able to play either. You don't "lose" 40K players, the players are still there. They're just playing something else. It's probably worth playing.

Take Brian's summing up statement:

That is why I hate Fantasy, because its another system and right now, in my humble opinion, other systems means competition for table time making it harder for people to get games.

Let's dissect this. WFB is just another system. Another system means competition for "table time". So the club gaming tables are being used for ... gaming? It will be "harder for people to get games". Is this because the club will be more popular so they will have more players than tables? Oh, no! That will be a terrible thing. Let's not get more tables, larger space, etc. No, let's discourage WFB players as much as possible.

No, let's read between the lines here:

That is why I hate Fantasy, because its another system and right now, in my humble opinion, other systems means competition for 40k table time making it harder for pure 40k players to get games.

There's no issue with dilution. Everyone that plays 40K still plays 40K. The club can only suffer from a 40K-only rule. Brian's not a bigot, but he comes across as short-sighted and selfish in wanting everyone to only play his game.

Bloodhorror wrote:CAN I JUST SAY, there seems to be some confusion.

I am not the guy accusing him of being the Bigot!!!

Yeah, your first post is somewhat misleading in this fashion. I would make it more clear that the quoted text is what you are referring to, not Brian's blog post.

Platuan4th wrote:

It could also cause them to grow thanks to introducing new blood.

The only time I've seen a problem caused by diversifying a club is when someone has a negative reaction or opinion to it.

We grew alot with mostly one system. Close focus meant like minded folks flocked in. The only time I've seen diversifying has had negative impact on the club. Doesnt happen all at once, but errodes slowly, and is especially frustration when you cant get a game of whatever, 40k, because their are only fantasy, warmachordes players, FOW, or whatnot around....

Experience has shown me otherwise.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lord Inquisitor wrote:
I find it hard to believe dilution can really have that much of an impact. If people want to play something different, why not? Carmachu, what you seem to be describing is simply a lack of organisation and dilution of time, not game systems. If the club was ONLY Wed and Sat then people wouldn't be missing each other and gaming opportunities.

Not at all. I've left out ALOT of detail. Suffice to say that no, it wasnt an organization thing, the club was well run and organized. Yes, opportunities were missed. Yes the fact that other games took the focus away from what orginallt drew us together. If there are only FOW, warmachordes, infiinity, stargrunts, fantasy players around.....there wasnt a 40k one to play. Frustrations grew, long time members quit.....game club closed down when it reached critial levels on non membership.

The club was well organized- it was a stand alone, rent its own space place, outside of game stores.

carmachu wrote:Experience has shown me otherwise.

And my experience has shown me(with more than one group) the opposite of your experience. Is my experience somehow less valid because of yours?

For example, we recently added D&D and boardgames to our rotation in addition to 40K and have added 3-4 more members and have yet to lose any 40K players from the group(helps that they've previously played things other than 40K) after several months. We're also thinking about adding Fantasy and Warmahordes, which is actually enticing a previous 40K player back to the group.

A bigot, nope.

Lots of people in clubs don't like fantasy.
Lots of clubs don't like more than one game being played.

I will personally NEVER play WHFB. I don't like the rules or the background or the genre in general.

When my club throws interclub fantasy events or tournaments, I just don't go to them. I help out in the background with stuff before it, but they can handle it themselves otherwise.

Hi all.
If you enjoy a particular game , and if you dont want to try other games just yet, thats fine.

But to try to restrict the options available to other people because of you own (limited experiance,) preferences is not realy good is it?

Gamers will play the games they like , and the more games available the more gamers they will attract.

Unfortunatley GW plc wants gamers to invest a huge amount of time and money in thier core systems , so the gamers feel compelled to stick to GW products because of the level of investment.

And to fully explore the GW core games usualy means heavier investment in GW minatures, and the games tend to have far more strategic focus tham most others.
(Alternative play styles generaly require different set of minatures and models.)

So you could have 2 fully developed armies in 40k, OR for the same cost, 10 armies/forces for other different games.

As lots of other games have game apropriate scaled minatures , and so require far less investment of cash and time to get the full experiance.
(54mm/28mm skirmish,20mm/ 15m battle games , and 10mm or 6mm mass battles.)

If we look at the period of greatest recorded growth in GW plc history.1995 to 1998.
GWplc doubled thier turn over in 3 years from 30 to 60 million.This is the period when GW were fully supporting all thier games core specialist and boxed.

If we look at the period of greatest stagnation 2006 to 2011, when 40k and WHFB were the main focus of GW.
(Actual sales volumes fell year on year , but was compensated for by increasing rrp.)

Variety is the spice of life.
Personaly I prefer to have the chioce of playing a wide variety of games across different periods and genres to playing the same game in slightly different ways...

TTFN

carmachu wrote:

Grot 6 wrote:
Even if the game sucks, so what. If a cat wants to play it, or even a faction of your club wants to play it, are you willing to cut them out of the whole because of it? Why would you do something like that?

How about to keep the club together and intact? Let me tell you a story.

Once upon a time there was a game club near me. One we forged after getting screwed around by game stores, so we formed our own. We played solidly one system, with a smattering of the second one. We played every Wen and Saturday, and some pick up games other days as folks seen fit. Then came along the "other games" and suddenly folks stopped showing up on Wen and Saturday. And started going other days. Then when folks showed up on some days and no one wanted to play the game we all got togetehr folk, eventually folks started getting angry and eventually left the club.

The club's doors closed permanently March. After being started WAY back n 2004 as an independent club. Dillution can have a negative impact on a club.

I don't see the need to just arbitrarily cut people out when you have a collective interest in playing games.

There arn't enough players in the first place, then to add the fact that the game is getting so expensive that you can't even get newbie players to invest a couple of bucks for some guys, even just a box of guys and a blister to fill it out with, and then you want to add in something like.... Internal mismanagement, and no collective discussion?

Clubs don't just fall by the wayside if you have a couple of solid players. YOUR issues are yours, but im my opinion, most players just want a place to play, some decent prices for materials and space, and some good company. GAME= Irrelevent.

YMMV, but in playing 40K, in particular, there is a particular segment of eleitist that won't even give ANY other game the time of day, irregardless of the issue. It doesn't make them a BIGOT. It makes them TFG, especially when the game in question is just different. Bottom line is to attract more players, if you have to do that with different games then just one or two, then so be it.
CLUB objectives should include selfpreservation. If that includes a little letting of other games play on another table, or even just giving the cat's another night, POSTING it, and getting the information out to the whole group, then thats what they have to do. 9 times out of 10, people know whats going on, they are a little more flexable then the old " I thought we played ginger snaps on MONDAY! What are you doing playing hop scotch?"

In your case, I bet your socks that you can as easily reinstate the club back with just a little communication and organization. All it takes is a posted schedual and discussion, so everyone knows whats going on.

You want Mondays, Tuesdays, and fridays for tiddly winks? Then put the word out. If you want to play checkers on Monday? !@#$ you. Tiddly wink night. You play tiddly winks, or you wait till wedsdays. Of course, you don't even need to be a turkey over it, You have some extra room? set the cat up another table and let them play. !#@$ it, what will it cost you to give the guy some space? I know what it will gain you. a player, INDIVIDUAL, who will remember that you gave him( or her) a little good will and some respect to include them in the club. What will that then do?
It will engraciate them to want to play YOUR game, and not be TFG when they come in with the wrong stuff and stand around with pent up nerdrage over something stupid. ("Want to play pin the tail on the donkey? We have some extra stuff, get with this guy for details".)

You could just as easily say, ok, we're playing 40K on these two tables, and fantasy on these other two. You want to play, its a 500 pt limit on your side, we have a large scale battle between this side and that side, and lets get it on.

If not, you go back, write yourself up a newspost, put it out as a flyer, and let people know-
"The XYZ club is playing on M, W,F. We play checkers and chess. On T and TH, we play hop scotch. If you have another game, we can discuss your game in its entirity, and come up with a CLUB CONSENSUS of if we're going to support it or not."

What you do not do is just arbitrarily just write PLAYERS out of the equasion, for the sake of nerdrage and fist-pumping your particular game. (As was done in the OP's attachment Blog.)

As Lanrick says here, it's about playing. YOU make allowances, you get more players. More players means better meta game. You don't just play against marines, or Billy and Mandy's tired azz tyranids.
Everyone gets in, they all get a little army together, then they can all get in on the collective grand strategy of playing together with an established large scale group.

carmachu wrote:Once upon a time there was a game club near me. One we forged after getting screwed around by game stores, so we formed our own. We played solidly one system, with a smattering of the second one. We played every Wen and Saturday, and some pick up games other days as folks seen fit. Then came along the "other games" and suddenly folks stopped showing up on Wen and Saturday. And started going other days. Then when folks showed up on some days and no one wanted to play the game we all got togetehr folk, eventually folks started getting angry and eventually left the club.

The club's doors closed permanently March. After being started WAY back n 2004 as an independent club. Dillution can have a negative impact on a club.

I fail to see a problem. Survival of the fittest.

The guy talks like a business thoerist but clearly has never taken a business class.

Specialization is why alot of retail stores go under...selling more of a variety ensures that as a retailer you bring in a larger crowd. He also doesnt understand that to be a GW retailer you have to sell a large portion of their product range, or GW wont give you the product discount to actually have a margin.

If the store in fact only sold 40k, and only had 40k players it would go bankrupt alot sooner than if it did privateer press, and other hobbies like magic ect.

Yes hes a "bigot" or as I like to say it an uneducated guy who talks through his ass because he cant accept what other people do for fun.

Wow, as classy as ever redacted

This has now been resolved on account of Brian making a Re Deux of his Why i hate Fantasy post!

http://www.rollwithit.org.uk/?p=3167#comment-1870

DakkaDakka is not the forum for this kind of argument.

Please take it to your personal blog.

Locking thread.