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At my FLGS, and the GW Store up the street, a team of three players have developed a strategy to defeat the metagame:

The three enter a tournament with very different armies, ensuring that at least one of them gets into the finals, then spends the prize money (or trades in the prize model) for upgrades to their army. This is legal within the regulations of the tournaments, but it's also incredibly annoying to see the same three people winning all the time.

Normally, when I ask people on this website for help, it's for something either stupid (help on building poorhammer Daemons) or crazy. This would be crazy, as I want to crush them all with an Imperial Guard list.

Why Imperial Guard? Because they have decided that only three armies are worthwhile: Grey Knights, Tau, and Dark Eldar.
It's annoying to hear all the ways your army can be defeated. It's more annoying when it's their fans, just parroting what these three are saying.

This is not me merely bitching. This is me asking for advice on how to stop them. I've taken out armies like them, but not theirs, which is why I'm asking for help with building up my Guard to do the job.

I would start by asking the three players in your area that constantly win tournaments with different lists for help.

This is quite a legit strategy for monies, but if you want to stop them, get 2 of your own friends to face their armies until they stop doing this.

Otherwise, be a good khornate follower and destroy them.

I would start by asking the three players in your area that constantly win tournaments with different lists for help.

I did, which is how I found out that everyone was parroting their criticisms of other armies. It's kind of hard to tell where the advice ends and the insults start, though their shorthand reviews of tanks are an interesting jumping-off point for Heavy Support building.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I do respect them using this tactic for cash, but the swollen egos have got to go.

A second three man team sounds like a good plan... though it lacks the dramatic flair I was hoping for.

Moping them up with your own army would be more dramatic. Have you got an idea on the list they're running?

InquisitorVaron wrote:Mopping them up with your own army would be more dramatic. Have you got an idea on the list they're running?

I was able to take some notes, but I'm not sure about all of the terminology.

The DE list, last that I saw, is built entirely around their skimmers getting them into close combat. I'm not familiar with the specifics beyond that and their poisoned weapons.

The GK list uses Karamazov (he's the guy in the throne, right?), a squad of Henchmen, two squads of Terminators, a Land Raider Crusader, and two Dreadknights.

And the Tau are... Tau. They shoot things, have a pair of tanks used to shred vehicles, and their commander is in a Battlesuit Squad.

I'm not sure about any details beyond that, as their collective strength comes from their individual malleability.

Mech IG or SW long fang spam seems the best routes to take here ....

It sounds like this trio actually does know how to play competitively, and makes sense that after winning fairly often the local players would start to look towards them for advice, are you sure it's the trio you have a problem with and not the regurgitators?

Otherwise, it seems as though they're playing legitimately (from what i gather in your posts) so there's not much to call foul on.

Try actually playing against them outside of the tournaments more often to get a better feel for their playstyles/armies?

I'm not sure whats so sinister here either. All I've been able to gather so far is; 1) there are three good players in your area. 2) They always win tournaments, 3) when they win they use their winnings to buy stuff. I'm not sure I see how this is a strategy to defeat the metagame.

Now if they're jerks about it, thats another story, but there doesn't seem to be anything wrong with how they're playing the game.


If you want help to win a tourney, thats fine, I'm sure many will be glad to help.

What point level? What models do you have to work with? How long have you been playing? I don't play Guard but I'm thinking I could at least give some pointers on builds, deployments and tactics.

I'm a huge fan of a Hybrid IG list. Depending on the points levels, I think my setup would stand a chance against them. They might just be better players, than I, though. Anyway, if you combine blobs with mech IG, you get some crazy-resilient CC troops units along with mobile firepower.

Each of the armies you list can handle a part of the army. DE assault units usually have enough attacks at high initiative (depending on the unit) to rip a blob to pieces if it's not big enough. If the Dreadknights have flamers, that will lay down some hurt on infantry, too. But while they're focusing on what they're good at, you're getting your other firepower into position. Same with Tau. They've got mobile firepower, but if you can get a unit of 20 or 30 guys in CC with them, they won't be hopping around so much anymore.

If you're gearing to beat 3 lists that are different on purpose, you'll definitely need flexibility in your own.

ElCheezus wrote:I'm a huge fan of a Hybrid IG list. Depending on the points levels, I think my setup would stand a chance against them. They might just be better players, than I, though. Anyway, if you combine blobs with mech IG, you get some crazy-resilient CC troops units along with mobile firepower.

Each of the armies you list can handle a part of the army. DE assault units usually have enough attacks at high initiative (depending on the unit) to rip a blob to pieces if it's not big enough. If the Dreadknights have flamers, that will lay down some hurt on infantry, too. But while they're focusing on what they're good at, you're getting your other firepower into position. Same with Tau. They've got mobile firepower, but if you can get a unit of 20 or 30 guys in CC with them, they won't be hopping around so much anymore.

If you're gearing to beat 3 lists that are different on purpose, you'll definitely need flexibility in your own.

Thats sorta the direction I was thinking too. A couple good sized blobs to buffer/block for a large amount of HW teams and some tanks, with maybe a couple Melta Vet squads in Chimeras for objective grabbing and dealing with Dreadknights/Landraiders. Depends on what he has though.

Throw a list out there and we'll see what we can do. It sounds like they're just really good players though. I mean, a list will help you sidestep metagaming, but it's no replacement for talent. Honestly, against the lists that you've described, I think an all foot-slogging powerblob IG list with some HWS for support would be hilarious and pretty much decimate at least the Tau and GK players. Depending on what he has in the raiders though, the DE player could probably overwhelm you with sheer volume of attacks.

daedalus wrote:Throw a list out there and we'll see what we can do. It sounds like they're just really good players though. I mean, a list will help you sidestep metagaming, but it's no replacement for talent. Honestly, against the lists that you've described, I think an all foot-slogging powerblob IG list with some HWS for support would be hilarious and pretty much decimate at least the Tau and GK players. Depending on what he has in the raiders though, the DE player could probably overwhelm you with sheer volume of attacks.

Tau have killer large blasts on their Railheads, the GK almost certainly has a super-flamer. DE is probably the best matchup of the three, but they've still got a huge volume of fire and number of attacks on the charge. All infantry would actually be a mediocre choice, I think.

What's the points level, btw?

I would use mech IG, and seeing as your like to play IG...

Against the Tau player, just shoot him over and over again, and if that doesn't work, shoot his troops. It's simple and may not win in annihilation missions, but Tau troops are extremely weak. You can even assault them if you have the chance. You will win. Shoot the commander with Str8 weapons, that will get rid of his suit if not kill him. he's then extremely useless.

Against the GK player, shoot the tanks, because that's what's protecting his termies. Once deprived of their transports, even GK termies will fall to sufficient firepower.

Agains the dark eldar player... Get the first turn and shoot everything at the transports. This sounds like a very fast army, so that may be hard to accomplish. I've also never played against DE so I'm a bit low on advice against them.

One more thing: good luck and CRUSH THE ARROGANT SCUMS!

Nothing is more satisfying than beating the arrogant guy with the army he criticized so much, trust me. I know...

ElCheezus wrote:

Tau have killer large blasts on their Railheads, the GK almost certainly has a super-flamer. DE is probably the best matchup of the three, but they've still got a huge volume of fire and number of attacks on the charge. All infantry would actually be a mediocre choice, I think.

The submutitions blast? I wouldn't be too worried about that. He gets a max of three (and is only taking two in his current list) and it's only FA 13. And you get cover. You have a point about the heavy incinerators though. They might be kinda nasty, but the GK list doesn't really have anything to fire anti-tank into except the crusader and the DKs. He'd also have the added benefit of forcing the GK player to come to him. Just shoot him from afar until he finally makes it across the board, then charge with the power blobs.

Project2501 wrote:It sounds like this trio actually does know how to play competitively, and makes sense that after winning fairly often the local players would start to look towards them for advice, are you sure it's the trio you have a problem with and not the regurgitators?

Otherwise, it seems as though they're playing legitimately (from what i gather in your posts) so there's not much to call foul on.

Try actually playing against them outside of the tournaments more often to get a better feel for their playstyles/armies?

Until you consider one of them is playing Tau...

IG should not have too much difficulty against any of these lists. I regularly play against an IG player who takes (IIRC) the following:

- a couple vendettas with melta veteran squads in them that he flanks with
- an inquisitor lord with retinue
- several melta veteran squads in chimeras
- psychic choirs in chimeras (I believe x2)
- an old school rules calidus assassin
- 2 hydra flak tanks squaded up
- and either one or two of the tanks that shoot the nasty barrage missile thinigie (can't remember what it is called off of the top of my head).
- and I think he started fielding a squad of rough riders that he holds off table to move in and counter charge anything that gets to him later in the game
(There may be some more stuff, but I cannot remember.)

I think he told me the only army he has some difficulties with are multiple land raider armies.

daedalus wrote:

ElCheezus wrote:

Tau have killer large blasts on their Railheads, the GK almost certainly has a super-flamer. DE is probably the best matchup of the three, but they've still got a huge volume of fire and number of attacks on the charge. All infantry would actually be a mediocre choice, I think.

The submutitions blast? I wouldn't be too worried about that. He gets a max of three (and is only taking two in his current list) and it's only FA 13. And you get cover. You have a point about the heavy incinerators though. They might be kinda nasty, but the GK list doesn't really have anything to fire anti-tank into except the crusader and the DKs. He'd also have the added benefit of forcing the GK player to come to him. Just shoot him from afar until he finally makes it across the board, then charge with the power blobs.

The sub blast, the high volume of fire on suits, and the Str 5 AP 5 weapon that his "crappy" troops have. Cover helps, but not as much as you're like, I promise. Especially if marker lights are in the mix. If you're counting closing for CC, you might not have time to go around or through terrain. Every inch counts in a situation like that. You might end up having to go across open ground. It's not impossible, but it's not really a strong matchup.

Even if you can get the GKs down, which would take 15 Lascannon shots (9 if they're all twin-linked), it only takes one or two shunts followed by flaming to ruin your day. The best you can do at that point is assault and drag it down over the next three turns. Again, not impossible, but they have more tools and flexibility if you only take infantry.

UmbrellaLegion wrote:
I do respect them using this tactic for cash, but the swollen egos have got to go.

A second three man team sounds like a good plan... though it lacks the dramatic flair I was hoping for.

Pay for a weekend plane ticket for Dashofpepper to come to your local store for a FLGS tournament. I'll not only use the worst codex in 40k, but do what they are worst at, and win the tournament. And give you the prize money. =D

On a serious note, what armies are they running? A TAC army isn't concerned with what your opponent is running; for Guard, the only real exception would be a fully drop-podded BA army.

*EDIT* And since they're running Dark Eldar, Tau, and Grey Knights....do you have more specifics?

Any standard Mech IG list should give you the foundation to whip ass.

5-6 Chimeras, 2 Hydras, a Manticore, a Vendetta or two (with alpha-strike melta bombs inside) - gives you the tools to deal with all of them. Can you still take the Emperor's Tarot? Take that too. And a PBS.

Here's what I'm thinking:

(Assuming 2000 points)

CCS, Straken, 4 meltas, Astropath, 2 bodyguards
CCS, Lascannon, Kell

Stormtroopers with 2 meltas
Stormtroopers with 2 meltas
Stormtroopers with 2 meltas

Infantry Platoon
PCS, 3 grenade launchers
30 Man infantry blob, 4 power weapons (incl commissar), 3 meltas, 3 meltabombs
HWS, Lascannons
HWS, Lascannons
HWS, Autocannons

Infantry Platoon
PCS, 3 grenade launchers
30 Man infantry blob, 4 power weapons (incl commissar), 3 meltas, 3 meltabombs

Infantry Platoon
PCS, Al'Rahem, 3 grenade launchers
20 Man infantry blob, 3 power weapons (incl commissar), 2 meltas, 2 meltabombs

Ministorum Priest with Eviscerator

-----

Game Plan:

Straken and the blobs charge, taking as much cover as they can. The other CCS sits back with the HWS to ensure they get their orders off and don't run the first time they get shot at. If they get wounded, consider going to ground. If they get wounded with S6+, definitely go to ground. Don't worry about the wasted order to get them back up. Just get them back up next turn and keep firing.

If dealing with DE, sit tight and pop the transports first, then the goal is to position yourself such that you can fall back and proceed to FRFSRF into them. You don't want to melee them due to the fact that usually volume of attacks > lots of bodies when you have 5+ armor.

If you are dealing with GK, then you consider spacing. Mainly, you space as far apart as possible such that each large blast or template gets as few people as possible. If he has a teleport pack on the DKs along with the heavy incinerator, you may be in some trouble. If not, I'm not expecting this army to be much issue. What kind of henchmen is he taking? Does he sit the inquisitor inside the henchmen squad? If it's something without power weapons, consider deepstriking one of the storm troopers close to him so that they have to deal with him rather than firing the orbital bombardment. If they shoot into them and kill them, then that was one turn he wasn't firing the bombardment. If not, then you can keep firing into them, whittling them down, and perhaps even assault them, depending on what the henchmen are. You're not expecting to win, just expecting to tie him up for a round or two while all of your other stuff makes it across the board. He's going to run from you shooting behind him the entire time, so you want to try to push as many of his guys into the corner that you have Al'rahem outflank from.

If dealing with Tau, then I'd target the railgun tanks first thing using the stormtroopers and HWS, and stay in cover as long as possible with your blobs until Al'rahem get's his outflank. From there, multiassault as many squads as possible, and try to get the other blobs up to help with the mayhem.

Other than that, not really sure what else to say. I'd need more information like exact point level and complete army lists before I could go so far as to give you anything REALLY precise.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dashofpepper wrote:Can you still take the Emperor's Tarot? Take that too. And a PBS.

Sadly, Emperor's Tarot doesn't exist anymore. PBS wouldn't be a bad idea, except for the fact that GK impose a -1 to the LD of the PBS when using psychic powers on them and they already have subpar leadership.

Dashofpepper wrote:Any standard Mech IG list should give you the foundation to whip ass.

5-6 Chimeras, 2 Hydras, a Manticore, a Vendetta or two (with alpha-strike melta bombs inside) - gives you the tools to deal with all of them. Can you still take the Emperor's Tarot? Take that too. And a PBS.

I'd be torn between the Manticore and the Colossus. S10 isn't needed that much against any of those armies... but a S6 template that ignores Cover is golden. Team it up with a Griffon for scatter re-roll goodness. Add a pair of bastion breacher Medusae for a 1-2 punch. Kill the vehicle, troops pile out (or are just left standing) in pie plate formation, kill the squad. PBS make anything left run away like little girls.

I don't think you can take the Emperor's Tarot since the Daemonhunter's Codex is no longer valid... I may be wrong here.

I don't want to post a reply for each person, as that would clutter up the thread, so here goes my attempt at a group of responses:

Creeping Dementia:
If they weren’t jerks about it, I wouldn’t have asked for help. I would have tried to join them.
The points level is 2500. I’ve been playing for several years, but I’ve always used assault armies.
Heavy Weapons Teams are a personal favorite component of my Infantry Platoon.

ElCheezus:
Thank you for the advice regarding a hybrid list.

Daedalus:
I know that list-building will only get me so far, but it’s better than nothing. Every little bit counts, though.
I’m not a big fan of all-footslogging with the IG. The hybrid list sounds most effective.

Lord Rogukiel:
Thank you for both your strategic advice…
And even moreso for your words of encouragement.

Eldanar:
I don’t think Inquisitor Lords or Assassins are allowed in the IG. Otherwise, that sounds like solid advice.

Dashofpepper:
Thanks for lightening the mood. I think we all needed that.
I won’t have any new notes until Saturday.
Thank you for the advice on which Vehicles to choose.

I believe you can still ally with the Withhunters book, and take the inquisitors and assassins from there (at least for now...)


On a different note, I do not see much purpose for large blocks of IG infantry. GK's and cc DE will have a field day assaulting them, and Tau will shoot them off of the table. Basically, anything not a vehicle, or in a vehicle, is just like handing points to your opponent.

I agree that powerblob guard is not the way to go... definitely mech up. Mech guard will have no trouble dealing with any of the three armies. Only the Dark Eldar player's list sounds really optimized, from what little you know, and the Tau player seems the weakest from the list description.

When you take notes, look for the following in each of their armies. ASK THE FANBOYS ABOUT THEIR LISTS - if they truly preach to these three demigods in your local leagues, they will know the lists well and, assuming you play along, will tell you every unit piece by piece.

DARK ELDAR:
Count the number of Ravagers, Venoms and Raiders separately. Try to get a total number of Blaster and Dark Lance shots that his army can shoot in one turn. Get a rough count on the number of Wytches, Trueborn, and any Grotesques. I'm no DE expert, but to a mech IG list you want to know how many lances and blasters he has, and its nice to know about his unit mix as closely as possible.

GREY KNIGHT:
You gave us some good info here. What else is there, since you only got off about 1200-1500 points worth at a rough count. In 2500 points, try to find out which main HQs he has (Draigo, Crowe, Coteaz especially), and how many squads of the following he brings and in what transport/combat squad setups: Paladins, Purifiers, Terminators, Strike Squads, Interceptors. We will get a strong sense of how he plays through knowing the core units he picks, and whether he takes their corresponding HQ to make them troops. A heavy-purifier army will need a very different approach to a heavy-terminator army, so at the very least, get a count of terminator armor models vs power armor models. Henchmen squads vary a lot, but without Coteaz in the list, they won't matter much. Just keep an eye out for Death Cult Assassins and tell us if he brings many of them in a Chimera.

TAU:
This guy sounds pretty weak, but we only know a bit of his army. Be grateful if he deploys and you see tanks, especially hammerheads, since every hammerhead he brings is a Heavy slot he can't spend on broadsides, which will wreck you 9 ways till Sunday. Try to get a basic idea of how many Crisis Suits he brings (HQ and Elites), Broadsides and other railguns (Heavy), and then get a feel for how many Kroot units he brings versus Fire Warriors/Pathfinders. The main thing we need to know is how many railgun shots he gets per turn at 2500 points, and knowing how many missile pods and plasma rifles come on the crisis squads. Don't fear the crisis suits too much - even his HQ unit will all die instantly from a battle cannon shot, unless he buys Irridium plating or whatever. Frankly, I would worry least about this guy, he has a seemingly weak mix of units in the weakest codex of the three, but I could be mistaken on his competency.

If you do fly Dash over, grab me a ticket too. I could use a laugh. Read Dash's thread about Dark Eldar, its a good read for any and every player, and may give you an insight into how Dark Eldar should be played, so you know what to look out for if you catch one of the arrogant guy's games.

Eldanar wrote:I believe you can still ally with the Withhunters book, and take the inquisitors and assassins from there (at least for now...)


On a different note, I do not see much purpose for large blocks of IG infantry. GK's and cc DE will have a field day assaulting them, and Tau will shoot them off of the table. Basically, anything not a vehicle, or in a vehicle, is just like handing points to your opponent.

Allies from the WH book aren't really worth taking. The only reason allies showed up in the Leafblower was because the original creator used the Mystics and Master of the Fleet to discourage reserving, so the massive pieplates had more targets to annihilate on turn 1. WHs can't take Mystics, and the assassins weren't really that great as much as they were fun. Marbo has them beat for utility, points, and scare factor. Basically the IG Codex is strong enough that it doesn't need help from allies.

You obvoiusly have little faith or haven't seen what IG power blobs can do. DE will probably out-assault them if they have units with a high number of attacks, but blobs would probably eat any GK unit other that Purifiers. And even then, it's only because the Purifiers can accidentally pick off the Commissar with their Cleansing Flame. Actually, IG is probably safer in CC with GKs than facing 24" Str 5 AP 5 shots. The key to blobs is support, and if you can do it right, they can take a whole heck of a lot in CC. My 21-man blobs have eaten 5-man terminator squads and moved on with enough power to assault other units. If you know you're facing DE, combine two 21's into a 42 at deployment and even a high number of attacks on the charge won't save them from the bayonets.

Love the sig, ElCheezus.

I still do believe that for a TAC list, mech does it better. Something about det packs from vets in vendettas, with meltas and FRFSRF...

ElCheezus wrote:

Eldanar wrote:I believe you can still ally with the Withhunters book, and take the inquisitors and assassins from there (at least for now...)


On a different note, I do not see much purpose for large blocks of IG infantry. GK's and cc DE will have a field day assaulting them, and Tau will shoot them off of the table. Basically, anything not a vehicle, or in a vehicle, is just like handing points to your opponent.

Allies from the WH book aren't really worth taking. The only reason allies showed up in the Leafblower was because the original creator used the Mystics and Master of the Fleet to discourage reserving, so the massive pieplates had more targets to annihilate on turn 1. WHs can't take Mystics, and the assassins weren't really that great as much as they were fun. Marbo has them beat for utility, points, and scare factor. Basically the IG Codex is strong enough that it doesn't need help from allies.

You obvoiusly have little faith or haven't seen what IG power blobs can do. DE will probably out-assault them if they have units with a high number of attacks, but blobs would probably eat any GK unit other that Purifiers. And even then, it's only because the Purifiers can accidentally pick off the Commissar with their Cleansing Flame. Actually, IG is probably safer in CC with GKs than facing 24" Str 5 AP 5 shots. The key to blobs is support, and if you can do it right, they can take a whole heck of a lot in CC. My 21-man blobs have eaten 5-man terminator squads and moved on with enough power to assault other units. If you know you're facing DE, combine two 21's into a 42 at deployment and even a high number of attacks on the charge won't save them from the bayonets.

My gaming group has three GT champions in it, so I have pretty much seen it all. However, 30 ork boyz > 30 IG in a powerblob; the IG powerblob seems a little limp when compared here.

And at 2,500 points, you are almost certainly going to see either lots of paladins, or lots of purifiers, and possibly some of each. Paladins will grind on the powerblob and purifiers will go through it like it wasn't even there. As for DE, he said it was a cc oriented list, so I can only surmise wyches and incubi; and with pain tokens, they too will grind through powerblobs.

The WH codex is great for allying with IG, because you can take the old-rules callidus. Used in conjunction with the psychic power for lowering leadership (against even fearless troops), and she is heinous. She is an alpha strike decapitation waiting to happen.

Eldanar wrote:My gaming group has three GT champions in it, so I have pretty much seen it all. However, 30 ork boyz > 30 IG in a powerblob; the IG powerblob seems a little limp when compared here.

And at 2,500 points, you are almost certainly going to see either lots of paladins, or lots of purifiers, and possibly some of each. Paladins will grind on the powerblob and purifiers will go through it like it wasn't even there. As for DE, he said it was a cc oriented list, so I can only surmise wyches and incubi; and with pain tokens, they too will grind through powerblobs.

The WH codex is great for allying with IG, because you can take the old-rules callidus. Used in conjunction with the psychic power for lowering leadership (against even fearless troops), and she is heinous. She is an alpha strike decapitation waiting to happen.

30 ork boyz > 30 IG, very true. That's why you do your best to get a couple round of FRFSRF in before the assault. It takes skill and work, but I've seen that decimate a group of Orks before they got a chance to do anything. Assault DE would also take 'advanced' tactics to compensate, but it can be done.

Palading and purifiers will lay a lot of waste to a blob, no doubt. Especially purifiers who can take out the Commissar before his time. However, with pallies we're talking about a unit that's much more geared to CC than a blob, and usually much more expensive. Even if they kill a blob of equivalent points (31 bodies, for a 5-man pally unit), it's probably points well spent to tarpit them. In either case, properly supporting the blob with other units makes a huge difference. Even getting one round of shooting from a 4x Plasma CCS in before the assault will probably swing things in the blobs' favour. We could go back and forth with hypotheticals, but my real point is that blobs are great, but they aren't the end-all, and proper support makes all the difference.

Ultimately, back to the topic, I think if you're looking to build a TAC list, spamming mech vets works fine, but I've found hybrid adds options and depth.

First, my second block of responses)))

Eldanar: In that case, you have my apology for doubting you, though I still think I’ll stay in-codex for this fight.

TehScat: I will have a far more detailed list on Saturday. I will ask the fanboys, or just let them spout the lists on their own.
Thank you for the detailed strategy/info request. The Tau player is the weakest of the three, but I need to get more information. Knowing is half the battle. (“GI JOE!”)
I can’t afford to fly you guys over, but I’ll be sure to put up a detailed battle report. With photos, if I can manage.
I’ll read that article right now.

ElCheezus: The advice on powerblobs is not falling on deaf ears, but I’ll need to test it before using it on the DE. I’ve seen IG powerblobs shred GK in CC before, but it still feels like a gamble…
(I also love your sig. I wish I’d thought of it.)

Eldanar/ElCheezus: Your hypotheticals are both informative and entertaining, and I would like to see more of them, but I think the powerblob argument is over.

Second…)))

I started a little “recruitment drive” and found two other players to help in taking the trio out in the tournaments. I’m still going to try to beat them on my own, but dramatic flair has to take a backseat to realism. My teammates are: a Space Wolves player and an Ork player, both looking for a challenge.