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I haven't played a game of 40k in well over a year now and am itching to play again. The reason for this is that my LGS is having a tournament in june. 1500 point main list with a 500 point sidebar.

I'm using everything I own currently (some random stuff like Kommandos and more boyz left out).

HQ
Warboss - PK, Attack Squig, Cybork Body, Boss Pole, Evy Armor, Twinlinked Shoota - 125
Big Mekk - KFF, Evy Armor, BP, Cybork Body - 105

Elites
Lootas x10 -150
Lootas x10 - 150
Burna Boyz x11 (go in BW)-165

Troops
Boyz 1 - Nob (PK, BP), 11 Boyz, Trukk (RPJ, Ram, Plank) - 162
Boyz 2 - Nob (PK, BP), 11 Boyz, Trukk (RPJ, Ram, Plank) - 162
Boyz 3 - Nob (PK, BP), 11 Boyz, Trukk (RPJ, Ram, Plank) - 162
Nobz - Painboy, Nob (PK, EA, CB, Waaagh!), Nob (PK, EA, CB, BP), Nob (PK, EA, CB), Nob (BC, EA, CB, BP), Nob (EA, CB), Nob (EA, CB), Nob (BC, EA, CB) Battle Wagon (Deff Rolla, RPJ, Plank, 2 Big Shoota, Kannon) - 450

Fast Attack
Deffkopta - TL Rokkits - 45
Deffkopta - TL Rokkits - 45
Deffkopta - TL Rokokits - 45

Heavy Support
Killa Kans - Rokkits x2 - 100
Killa Kans - Grotzooka x2 - 90
Battle Wagon (Deffrolla, RPJ, Plank, 2 Big Shoota, Kannon) - 140

I'm thinking the Burna Boyz and Wagon along with Killa kans will be my sidebar.

C&C welcome and appreciated

Looks interesting...

HQ: Good, I'd personally drop the BP from both and also pick one or the other cybork or 'eavy armor

Elite: For the lootas they are best run in units of 5 and 15 for leadership purposes I would split them up as such. I don't see Burnas really be taken in groups of less then 15, but I'm not too sure.

Troops: Not a big fan of trukks, they fall to easily. I like 1 for running and grabbing a remote objective but with an AV of 10 even typical infantry fire can take one out, I'd combine squads and add a battle wagon. On the Nobz you need more diversity, no one mob should be like another. You should also never have more then one boss pole, if you want diversity grab ammo runs or kombi-rokkits. Not a big fan of the kannon you should be too busy ramming with that deffrolla.

FA: Solid, if you have the points buzzsaws are nice, keep them to their own units of 1.

HS: I dunno man Kans are awesome but they just seem to be thrown in. We're Orks we don't do well as a diversified force we are all about picking a direction and running full speed ahead, be it kan wall, wagon spam, green tide. Also without KFF the Kans are going to get slaughtered with the AV11.

Eh....I don't like it. =p

Two battlewagons, three trukks. Not enough battlewagons to hide the trukks, trukks aren't tall enough or wide enough to block side armour on the battlewagons. Precisely the wrong mix.

Two units of 10 Lootas. Large enough to deal with, not small enough to ignore, and precisely the right size to shoot at with one dedicated anti-infantry unit, do 3 wounds, and not only make you take leadership, but make you do it at your lowest leadership.

Nobs: Mixing 'Eavy Armour and Cybork Body...why? They're either riding up the battlefield in a battlewagon and not getting shot at. Or they've been wrecked/exploded out of their battlewagon and are sitting in a crater...in which case they either have 4+ cover and 4+ FNP to stack on top. Or they've lost their transport and are moving between cover to get up to contact, still sitting on a 4+/4+. Or they're in close combat....and have a 5++/4+ FNP...or dealing with power weapons and getting a 5++ only. There is only ONE situation in which a 4+ armour save is beneficial: Sitting in close combat against units without multiple power weapons. And...you have Deffkoptas for that at a better toughness. And mobs of boyz. If massed power weapons aren't present, neither are invul saves, and boyz' attacks are good enough. You don't need the 'Eavy Armour; its wasted points.

Deffkoptas: What do yours plan on doing with them? BS2 twin-linked isn't scaring anyone, a single shot at that...and they don't have the durability or killing power to assault things. Their best role is as an alpha-strike unit to take down enemy anti-armour to protect your own. Without a buzzsaw, you're assaulting into counter-attacking longfangs....or you're assaulting into IG HWTs (unlikely, they're never on the front lines) without any killing power...or you're not assaulting ravagers, chimeras, tanks, or any sort of anti-tank armour because you can't hurt it. Its a waste of a FoC spot and of points.

Enter the Killa-kans: 6" moving slow little things. Either your battlewagons are moving 6" per turn to keep pace and wasting the speed, or the killa-kans are getting left behind without the ability to either get the KFF save, without the ability to contribute to assault when the main army hits the enemy lines because they're slower. Its water and oil.

If you have a sidebar, build a foundation of an army that is themed, and works together. Make your sidebar consist of units that can complement your main army better depending on the enemy you are facing.

Make some Buzzsaw + TL Rokkit Deffkoptas be your sidebar. If its a killpoint game...options. If you're fighting against something that needs you in the backfield taking out anti-armour quickly...options. I think you need to reformulate how you're going to build your Ork list, pick a theme, and not try combining different army types. Here's something I wrote elsewhere that you might find useful.


I'm going to work off of a couple of assumptions.
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1. Playing Warhammer 40k is fun.
2. Playing Warhammer 40k and winning is more fun.
3. Playing Warhammer 40k and losing is less fun.
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Human nature and natural selection demand that we continually seek to improve ourselves. Having an A type personality probably doesn't hurt this effort, but if you lose a game of 40k and don't reflect on the game with, "What did I do wrong? What could I have done better? How can I prevent this from happening again?" then I can't really talk to you.

If this thought process and those three assumptions *do* apply to you, then read on.

******
Orks are a unique codex. An ork boy is significantly cheaper than just about any other model in 40k, and is basically a platform from which many things spring (other kinds of ork variants - stormboyz, lootas, nobs...). If you read the fluff, every ork starts in the same place, and as they develop, they lean towards on klan/society, which is how they figure out what kind of ork they're going to be.

In other codexes (space marines and their variants being the most prolific), basic troops are well-rounded models. You ever play Final Fight? How about ANY kind of game with character selections? You've got the big, strong guy that's slow...the average Joe....and the weaker but very speedy character. This applies in 40k as well. Space marines are like your average, well-rounded Joe. Orks are NOT. You can't mix and match orks in any order you like to make a generalized list.

This is *not* called power building, its called understanding your codex, how your codex is designed, and using it as such. Every time someone calls "playing a theme" to be "powerbuilding" I want to stab them in the F***** eye. If you look in the Ork codex, do you see the codex writers putting in pictures for the sample armies of some Lootas backing up a squad of meganobs in a trukk, who are advancing next to some buggies and a deffkopta or two?

NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

They even TELL you how to make your army. They tell you what the Ork klans are - Bad Moons, Kult of Speed, Deffskullz, etc.

That kind of thematic army construction is the intent of the Ork codex. That is what makes orks powerful. The ork codex is written so that you can design an army list that is absolutely ridiculously powerful, but it is NOT made up of average Joe units; everything is specialized towards a specific goal. When you build an army list, you should follow the thematic advice given to you in the Codex. PICK a theme. There's a lot of them:

Green Tide. Mechanized Assault. Mechanized Shooting. Ork Gunline (Moar Dakka), Kan-Wall. Dreadz of Fury. Kult of Speed. Outflanking Goodness. Rebel Grotz. Nob Bikers. Super Units. Orky Burnas.

All of those things have something in common - the lists were designed with a theme in mind, and have the synergy to work together towards that goal. When you start combining those themes to make a list, you're being counterintuitive to the very style that the orks were created for.

Remember this: Orks can do anything that any other army can do, and they can do it better than that army. However, orks can only do it one at a time. You can outshoot a Tau Gunline. You can out-assault a khorne army or an army of genestealers. You can put down more templates than IG....whatever your goal in mind is....orks can do it better, but it has to stick to that theme. Orks are not meant to be universal, middle-of-the-line armies.

To give another analogy...if you've ever played an MMO, there are different classes. Fighter, Tank, barbarian, mage, cleric, wizard, hunter, ranger, red mage, death knight, rogue, whatever.....its all based on the game you play. The class you pick sets you on a path for the kind of game you play, the skills you get - they are pre-defined roles.

40k armies fit into that kind of typification. Except for Orks. Orks would be the generic class. You start with a neutral character, with skillpoints to assign, and you can make orks any kind of army you want them to be. People fail with orks because they want some of everything. Instead of making them a fighter, or an archer, or a guardian...and they would be better fighters, archers and guardians than every other type...they split points between all three to make a Figardian.

*edited out inappropriate joke about the acronym for Fighter Archer Guardian*




*EDIT* I'm adding information for the tactics article I'm working on.

If you're running a foot-slogging list, shoota boys are your friend. Slugga boys belong inside vehicles. In fact, I think you should convert your slugga boy mobs into shoota boys. In 5th edition, the shoota boy is the most efficient point purchase across all 40k.

Think on that - for 6 points...SIX POINTS....you get an infantry model with an assault 2 STR4 gun, who is WS4, STR4, T4 on the charge. In terms of math hammer between shoota and slugga boys, it's pretty simple. Slugga boys have +1 attack in close combat, and shoota boys have +1 attack outside of close combat. Since your Orks on the assault are only I3, you're going to strike last meaning that 30 boyz are going to take some casualties before getting their attacks back.

On the flip side, shoota boys get 2 shots before assaulting, and the enemy doesn't get to shoot back first and cause casualties - putting in any kind of hurt before you assault is incredibly valuable. And since it has an 18" range, you can shoot into a unit even when you don't have range to assault this turn. My advice for green tide:

Take all your troops choices as shoota boys. Consider taking a squad of gretchin - you can spread them across your front lines to provide 4+ cover saves for your whole army. Alternatively, you can take a squad of ork boyz to do the same. If you make them 'Ard Boyz they gain considerably in staying power.

Want to get real freaky? Take a squad of 'Ard Boyz, stick Mad Dok Grotsnik with them for a 4+/4+. Spread that unit out 2+ coherence to minimize the damage that blast templates can do, and have the whole thing move+run in front of your army. Your screening unit has 4+ armor saves, 4+ feel no pain, and the rest of your army has 4+ cover saves now. If your points allow it, what really tops off the list is adding some fast attack Stormboyz. You can put them into close combat, or have them multi-assault to shake/stun some tanks/artillery, have them get in fast and tie up enemy units (hello Tau!), or if the situation doesn't call for it, you can leave them behind your screening unit and keep them in reserve to get in where you need supporting assault units at.

Thanks guys. Dash - i'll probably have to read your post 2 or 3 times to fully absorb it. I'll post a new list later after messing with it for awhile.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok 2nd shot is this any better? Its only 1500 points. I can have a max of 2 500 point sidebars for this (I must have 1 as its a 2k tournament). What should they have?

HQ
Warboss - PK, Attack Squig, Cybork Body, Boss Pole, Evy Armor, Twinlinked Shoota - 125
Big Mekk - KFF, Evy Armor, BP, Cybork Body - 105

Elites
Burna Boyz x15 (go in BW) - 225

Troops
Boyz 1 - Nob (PK, BP), 11 Boyz, Trukk (RPJ, Ram, Plank) - 162
Boyz 2 - Nob (PK, BP), 11 Boyz, Trukk (RPJ, Ram, Plank) - 162
Boyz 3 - Nob (PK, BP), 11 Boyz, Trukk (RPJ, Ram, Plank) - 162
Nobz - Painboy, Nob (PK, CB, Waaagh!), Nob (PK, CB, BP), Nob (PK, CB), Nob (BC, CB), Nob (CB), Battle Wagon (Deff Rolla, RPJ, Plank, 2 Big Shoota, Kannon) - 415

Heavy Support
Battle Wagon (Deffrolla, RPJ, Plank, 2 Big Shoota, Kannon) - 140

C&C welcome

2,000 point tournament, with a 1500 point core and two 500 point sidebars.

I think you have the right...idea, with the wrong implementation.

I don't know how the translation for this will go from my army list to here, but Imma try:
-------------------------------------------------------------
The Pink Waaaugh!

HQ
Ghazghkull Thraka 225
KFF Mek Kustom Force Field Powerklaw 110

Troops
Ghazghkull's Harem, 7 Painboy Bosspole Waaaugh! Banner/Ammo Runt Powerklaw / Ammo Runt Powerklaw/Kombi-Rokkit Big Choppa Big Choppa / Kombi-Rokkit Cybork Bodies Battlewagon Deffrolla Boarding Plank Big Shoota Grabbin' Klaw Grot Riggers 441
Boyz, 16 Nob Powerklaw 131
, 0
Trukk Boyz, 12 Nob Powerklaw Trukk Boarding Plank Reinforced Ram 152
Gretchin, 10 Runtherder 40
, 0

Elites
Burnaz, 15 225
Lootas, 5 75
Lootas, 5 75

Fast Attack
Deffkopta, 1 TL Rokkit Buzzsaw 70
Deffkopta, 1 TL Rokkit Buzzsaw 70
Rokkit Buggies, 3 3x Rokkitx 105

Heavy Support
Battlewagon, 1 Deffrolla Boarding Plank Big Shoota Grabbin' Klaw Armor Plates Grot Riggers 140
Battlewagon, 1 Deffrolla Boarding Plank Big Shoota Grabbin' Klaw Armor Plates Grot Riggers 140
, 0

Points Summary:
HQ: 335
Troops: 764
Elites: 375
Fast Attack: 245
Heavy Support: 280
Total: 1999
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Some things will always be useful in an Ork list....others will not be. For example...if you're playing against a non-assault based Army...you don't really need nobs, while shooting and alpha strike would be more important. I think your nobs should be a sidebar. Burnas are incredibly useful against assault units, against Tyranids in particular...and of no help against mechanized armies. Excellent sidebar, not so excellent as a core piece of your army.

I think the core of your army should be the things that are useful against every army.

Lootas. Absolutely.
HQ: KFF Big Mek.
2x Troops: Instead of putting in boyz in trukks, why don't you start with the battlewagons? Two troops are mandatory...and while you want your Orks charging across the field, you don't want to leave boyz in the background to hold it...that's not what orks are meant to do. But...you have GRETCHIN for that! =D Not only that, Gretchin can protect Lootas in the backfield from assault.

I'd make my core list have 12 boyz (with a powerklaw nob) in a battlewagon + a 10 man unit of gretchin in your core list, along with a dedicated transport Trukk for the 12 boyz. They're not required to start in the trukk, the battlewagon makes a better transport in case you need it (depending on what you bring in for a sidebar)

That gives you a KFF Big Mek, 10 gretchin, a trukk, and a battlewagon. Keep the deff Rolla, lose the Red Paint, keep the plank, drop a big shoota, and the kannon...optional. Battlewagons are meant to move 12" forward to get units into combat. Those extra weapons are wasted pointed.

Then I'd add in either two units of 5 Lootas, or one of 5 and one of 15. Keep a sidebar for a third Loota unit in one option, and your 15 burnas in another sidebar so that either way you're filling in your elites with more shooting or more close combat. I'd add three deffkoptas with twin-linked rokkits into the shooty sidebar as well - if you come up against a shooting army, you'll want to sidebar in a bunch of shooting and alpha-strike in return.

I *really* like Ghazghkull Thraka. He's a close combat beast on his own, especially on the Waaaugh!. I'd say sidebar him in with the Nobs, but that's too many points. If you like him, make him a core piece of your army.

Anyway, that's what I think. Run with it from there.

I swear to Chaos, threads die when I post in them. :(

it's cuz nobody can go against your tactics bro

If you resolve the question/issue what is there to post?

the fact that everyone likes cake. Thats a postible comment in its own right

The cake is a lie.

Yeah...but I *write* all that junk so that others will read it and learn instead of having to replicate the same threads over and over. You can literally write three different pieces of advice, copy and paste them into a document...and when a list comes up for critique on the army you've written the advice comes for, paste one of the three answers in and have a precise and insightful critique and advice for the OP.

Hang around Army Lists long enough, and you'll find that it eventually ends up being the same questions, the same issues...over...and over...and over...and over and overoverovoeroveraaah! Endlessly.

I used to live in here, but got tired of writing the same thing over and over. So I did the copy/paste thing. Eventually I got tired of copy/pasting, because with dozens and hundreds of similar or identical lists to any given OP....it frustrated me that people would rather post a list asking for feedback than to read what other people posted and got feedback for.

Too much posting, not enough reading from 90% of Dakka.

Anyway, these days I try avoiding specific advice and stick to the tactics forum where I can write intensive guides and just point people to them.

Dashofpepper wrote:
Too much posting, not enough reading from 90% of Dakka.

Thats why I've been quiet - too much reading to do.

Here is my "final" version. After reading the scoring theres no way I'll be able to win (Painting directly affects your seed in each round) and theres no way this army will be painted - its about half done. Don't get me wrong I enjoy the painting aspect for tournaments but not in this direct format.


HQ
Ghazhkull Thrakka - 225
Big Mekk - KFF, PK - 110

Elites
Lootas x15 -225

Troops
Boyz 1 - Nob (PK), 11 Boyz, Trukk (Ram, Plank) - 152
Boyz 2 - Nob (PK), 11 Boyz, Trukk (Ram, Plank) - 152
Boyz 3 - Nob (PK), 11 Boyz, Trukk (Ram, Plank) - 152
Grotz - x10, Runtherder - 40

Fast Attack

Heavy Support
Killa Kans - Grotzooka x3 - 135
Battle Wagon (Deffrolla, Plank, Big Shoota, Grabbin Klaw, Armor Plates, Grot Riggers) - 140
Battle Wagon (Deffrolla, Plank, Big Shoota, Grabbin Klaw, Armor Plates, Grot Riggers) - 140

Sidebar 1
Nobz - Painboy, Nob (PK, CB, Waaagh!), Nob (PK,CB, BP), Nob (PK, CB), Nob (BC), Nob (CB) - 275
Burna Boyz x15 - 225

Sidebar 2
Deffkopta - TL Rokkits, Buzzsaw - 70
Deffkopta - TL Rokkits, Buzzsaw - 70
Buggies - x3, Rokkits - 105
Lootas x15 - 225