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So..

I'm fairly confident in my Ard Boyz round 2 list. I've played it in 4 tournaments, won 3 of them and took 2nd in the other. You can find a link to it here...

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/362157.page

Anyways.. I realize after playing it I have a few natural enemies that are fairly common in the meta I expect to face in round 2.


Dwarfs stacking dispel dice and cannons.

Teclis hiding with the World Dragon Banner in a bunker with Pheonix Guard and 4 nobles.

The 40-strong Bloodletter block Khorne Daemons with no casters or vulnerable IC's.

Empire with lots of Priests and Cannons.


I've found that by simply pushing my WoC across the board, I can pretty reliably kill enough dwarves and empire for a win, even if I only get 1 spell off a round. My biggest issue still seems to be Daemons and Teclis. The huge blocks of killy characters and near perfect magic immunity really cramp my style. I've considered a couple off the wall items that may help, but need help either finding the points or finding a counter-strategy.

Feedback Scroll - This seems like a solid anti-teclis item. It can pierce the dragon banner and potentially kill Teclis in one round after he throws 6 dice without caring about miscasts. The fallback is it could just as likely do 0 wounds if my rolling for 5+'s on 6 dice goes badly.

Wulfrik the Wanderer - I already have a big marauder block. I could drop the marks from my warshrines and my dogs, plus about 10 marauders and be able to squeeze him in. He can force Teclis into an auto-challenge with his special ability and likely kill the old bastard. Seeing as elves usually only run a single caster anyways, this seems an easy enough idea. Problem is that he is likely to die the next round of combat anyways. Still, giving up 450 points of Marauders and Wulfrik to kill Teclis is a fair trade indeed.

The problem with those two ideas above is they are 0 help against nasty big daemon blocks.

Thoughts?

Your list looks good, and hoping I don't run into it.

The baublous trick works nice, except against daemons. All those ward saves would slow that down also magic resistance.

A lot of damage not being in a character format. I run some killy characters and some magicy ones, and my lord Fateweaver can impact the battle line from a distance.

I can see big nasty buffed daemon blocks being a problem, unless multicharge and grind.

The problem with a feedback scroll killing Teclis is that if he throws 6 dice at a spell and DOESN'T get IF, then some dice god hates him or something. That build seems to be pretty prevalent this year for 'Ard Boyz - if he knows you have a feedback scroll, he's probably limiting himself to about 3 casting dice a turn, not intentionally going for IF.

Where Teclis is getting shady though this year is putting him in the second rank so you can't hit him - its almost to the point of you have to kill 1 or 2 of the other characters in the unit to force him up to the front rank or kill the champ so the command doesn't auto displace him. Stupid rule - I really hope GW FAQs it.

Actually killing one or two charcters in the front rank doesnt force him to the first rank...

It says must be deployed in the front rank yadda yadda... key word being deployed, once he is in the second rank he stays there.

Also another trick is deploying the unit 3xwhatever and putting him the second rank, then you reform on the first turn and he stays in the second rank. (shady as hell, but its allowed)

Something to watch out for with the Feedback scroll, is that you can only use it if you can attempt to dispel. So, if Teclis casts with IF, you can't use the scroll, because you can't attempt to dispel a spell that was cast with IF. And when you throw 6 dice with Teclis on a spell you almost always get IF.

I missed that Angel.


Crap.

I guess there's nothing at all with the exception of Wulfrik that can reliably stop Teclis in the WoC army book.

Is Wulfrik worth running in my list or should I just hope for the best without countering Teclis specifically?

I don't know what to tell you. I have a similar problem I'm facing with Dwarfs. I have an item specifically in my army book to counter the Anvil, but it would require re-working my list in a manner in which I'm not willing to do, especially since it only affects one army and I'm not guaranteed to face them or that war machine.

So, in the end, I decided I'd just have to do my best when I came to that situation lol.

I didn't see your list, but I'd take a dispel scroll and maybe the uber dispel scroll (the one that destroys a spell on 4+) if you are really worried about magic heavy armies.

Acardia,

Where are you playing?

Madison, WI or Twin cities. I'm equidistant to those.

In that list, when it says chaos sorcerer of nurgle x 3, I'm assuming that equipment is distributed amongst the 3 of them?

Spamming the snipe spell, I'm guessing, pretty cool...

RiTides, that's correct.

The Skull of Katam helps bring it all together, and it's not a big deal to just 1 dice the spell.

interesting, i'm vulnerable to this in the first turn if i go second, but... as you have to cluster your casters i can avoid this by just not being there.

not a bad tactic, but its a one trick pony that if avoided hampers you significantly if you get a bad streak of 1-2.

though i have to admit taking the maruader character just to take teclis out is pretty interesting though again i'm still not super afraid of this if i survive the first 2 turns.

or secnario 2 has some wonky deployment, so keeping them all within the skull range is an issue.

This list is an interesting one to debate. A lot of people tell me they arent worried about it, but the beauty of the list is that whatever big nasty magic lore they take, I can copy it with my Lvl 4 thanks to Eye of Tzeentch.

I've played lots of current meta lists and the only one to consistently beat me so far is Teclis with his banner.

The teclis in the 2nd rank shenanigans is pretty annoying, If I see an opponent do it, then that's the only time I'll stick my Tzeentch herald in the second rank with the great Icon of despair and force them to go through the nasty skulltaker/changeling combo(see FAQ)

ShivanAngel wrote:Actually killing one or two charcters in the front rank doesnt force him to the first rank...

It says must be deployed in the front rank yadda yadda... key word being deployed, once he is in the second rank he stays there.

Also another trick is deploying the unit 3xwhatever and putting him the second rank, then you reform on the first turn and he stays in the second rank. (shady as hell, but its allowed)

Page 96 states they may have to go to the second rank if there is no room. where does it say they stay there? As soon as room becomes available they should move to the front rank unless im missing something.

In addition, read page 92. Follow that president when you reform. That model comes back to the front rank if there is enough room.

Tomb King wrote:

ShivanAngel wrote:Actually killing one or two charcters in the front rank doesnt force him to the first rank...

It says must be deployed in the front rank yadda yadda... key word being deployed, once he is in the second rank he stays there.

Also another trick is deploying the unit 3xwhatever and putting him the second rank, then you reform on the first turn and he stays in the second rank. (shady as hell, but its allowed)

Page 96 states they may have to go to the second rank if there is no room. where does it say they stay there? As soon as room becomes available they should move to the front rank unless im missing something.

In addition, read page 92. Follow that president when you reform. That model comes back to the front rank if there is enough room.

This is the way I thought it worked.

My way or his way. If someone is playing it that they should read into the rules more and stop cheating.

Actually, after re-reading the rules, I am not certain that a character has to be in the front rank after they first join the unit. It could be taken as implied in a reading of page 92, but as it doesn't specifically mention characters in addition to the command group, I think asserting that anything other than the command group needs to move is stretching things, considering the rule is in the command group section and doesn't discuss characters anywhere else.

The sections on page 96 do say a character moves to the front when he joins, unless there isn't room due to other characters/command. After that, it doesn't specify where he has to go after a reform, etc.
Also, the rules for make way state that he CAN move to the fighting rank, whether front or side, even displacing command models, but doesn't have to. I think that further implies that the character can float around the back ranks if, upon joining the unit, there was no room for him in the front.

I think it is a gap in the rules, but as written I don't see anything saying the character must get int the first rank at the first opportunity, and as far as suggesting it goes there are things for both sides.

Wehrkind wrote:Actually, after re-reading the rules, I am not certain that a character has to be in the front rank after they first join the unit. It could be taken as implied in a reading of page 92, but as it doesn't specifically mention characters in addition to the command group, I think asserting that anything other than the command group needs to move is stretching things, considering the rule is in the command group section and doesn't discuss characters anywhere else.

The sections on page 96 do say a character moves to the front when he joins, unless there isn't room due to other characters/command. After that, it doesn't specify where he has to go after a reform, etc.
Also, the rules for make way state that he CAN move to the fighting rank, whether front or side, even displacing command models, but doesn't have to. I think that further implies that the character can float around the back ranks if, upon joining the unit, there was no room for him in the front.

I think it is a gap in the rules, but as written I don't see anything saying the character must get int the first rank at the first opportunity, and as far as suggesting it goes there are things for both sides.

lol, it also doesnt say anything about my cat running on the table and eating your plastic soldiers. Does that mean they die?

The reason for them being in the back rank IS BECAUSE THERE IS NO ROOM. If you remove the issue with no room then it restarts.

IF you apply the way you rule it, I can reform my models at the beginning of the game and remove my characters from the first rank and decide not to put them there any more. I like the 4th rank im reforming to face this way and my wizard he is just gonna chill out back here. While you give the to your opponent.

Example:

C= Character
CH = command squad
R = rank and file troops

There is no room:

R_R__R
R_R__R__R__R
R_R__R__R__C
C_CH_CH_CH_C

One character has to go to the back rank.

Reformed now there is enough room so the character moves to the front rank:

R_R__R__R__R__R
R_R__R__R__R__R
C_CH_CH_CH_C__C

Your ruling would allow this:

R_R__R
R_R__R__R__R
R_R__R__R__R
C_CH_CH_CH_R

Reformed:

R_R__R
R_C__R__R__R
R_R__R__R__R
R_CH_CH_CH_R

Actually, it would only allow the character to go to the second rank if he started there.

Argue rules as intended all you want, but the rules specifically say that the character goes to the front rank "when joining" the unit. Nothing about going to the front rank later. In fact, the rules specifically call out that a character in the back ranks doesn't need to move to the front or other fighting ranks if they don't want to by way of Make Way. Without some sentence saying "Characters must always be in the front rank when possible after reforming or removing command models" or something to that effect, there is no reason that characters need to move to the front rank subsequent to their joining the unit.

The rules are strange in that, I would agree, but that's the RAW.

As a side note: Leave lines like "lol, it also doesnt say anything about my cat running on the table and eating your plastic soldiers. Does that mean they die?" un-posted. They won't win you friends here, or even really any arguments. This isn't a question of "Well the rules doesn't say I can't." This is a question of "The rules say I can here, then don't say anything about what happens later."

Wehrkind wrote:Actually, it would only allow the character to go to the second rank if he started there.

Argue rules as intended all you want, but the rules specifically say that the character goes to the front rank "when joining" the unit. Nothing about going to the front rank later. In fact, the rules specifically call out that a character in the back ranks doesn't need to move to the front or other fighting ranks if they don't want to by way of Make Way. Without some sentence saying "Characters must always be in the front rank when possible after reforming or removing command models" or something to that effect, there is no reason that characters need to move to the front rank subsequent to their joining the unit.

The rules are strange in that, I would agree, but that's the RAW.

As a side note: Leave lines like "lol, it also doesnt say anything about my cat running on the table and eating your plastic soldiers. Does that mean they die?" un-posted. They won't win you friends here, or even really any arguments. This isn't a question of "Well the rules doesn't say I can't." This is a question of "The rules say I can here, then don't say anything about what happens later."

I thought i'de bring in a funny way to tell you how silly your argument is without bringing in insults and/or ridiculing you. Sorry if you yourself were insulted by the comment which wasnt directed at you but more or so a way of interpreting the game.

What happens if you place 4 character in a unit with a command that deploys 3 wide? Would you say one of the characters went to the third rank or that the character cant be deployed in the unit as the rules only talk about the first and second rank?

Either way sorry for derailing the thread. These discussions are for the you make the call threads not tactic threads.

Tomb King wrote:
I thought i'de bring in a funny way to tell you how silly your argument is without bringing in insults and/or ridiculing you. Sorry if you yourself were insulted by the comment which wasnt directed at you but more or so a way of interpreting the game.

What happens if you place 4 character in a unit with a command that deploys 3 wide? Would you say one of the characters went to the third rank or that the character cant be deployed in the unit as the rules only talk about the first and second rank?

Either way sorry for derailing the thread. These discussions are for the you make the call threads not tactic threads.

It wasn't so much that I was insulted, more that people use that line a lot here, and it never helps much, and usually just pisses people off. It sometimes applies to some arguments, but most people don't actually make "the rules don't say I can't!" type arguments all that often. Usually addressing where in the book the rules say to do something or not do something is more valuable.

In this case it is not relevant because the rules tell us what to do with the character when it joins a unit; you move it to the front rank regardless of distance, and if it won't fit due to command or other character models you move it to the second rank. In other situations it is not clear that you must move the character to the front row; the book doesn't tell you you must do so. Further, it is not clear that you even are allowed to move the model to the front row; the book doesn't say you can other than by a Make Way move. Command Groups specifically (pg 92) state they move automatically to be in the front row. In other cases models are not normally allowed to move farther than twice their movement during a reform, but command apparently can avoid even this issue.

Your last question actually isn't a bad one either; one would assume you would put the 4th hero in the 3rd rank, but arguably the book doesn't say you can. In general the book isn't terribly clear on ANY of the points, and so stating that it is obviously the case that characters need to move to the front line any chance they get is incorrect. It isn't clear just what they need to do.

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=300657

Tomb King wrote:My way or his way. If someone is playing it that they should read into the rules more and stop cheating.

Your way.

Wehrkind wrote:

Tomb King wrote:
I thought i'de bring in a funny way to tell you how silly your argument is without bringing in insults and/or ridiculing you. Sorry if you yourself were insulted by the comment which wasnt directed at you but more or so a way of interpreting the game.

What happens if you place 4 character in a unit with a command that deploys 3 wide? Would you say one of the characters went to the third rank or that the character cant be deployed in the unit as the rules only talk about the first and second rank?

Either way sorry for derailing the thread. These discussions are for the you make the call threads not tactic threads.

It wasn't so much that I was insulted, more that people use that line a lot here, and it never helps much, and usually just pisses people off. It sometimes applies to some arguments, but most people don't actually make "the rules don't say I can't!" type arguments all that often. Usually addressing where in the book the rules say to do something or not do something is more valuable.

In this case it is not relevant because the rules tell us what to do with the character when it joins a unit; you move it to the front rank regardless of distance, and if it won't fit due to command or other character models you move it to the second rank. In other situations it is not clear that you must move the character to the front row; the book doesn't tell you you must do so. Further, it is not clear that you even are allowed to move the model to the front row; the book doesn't say you can other than by a Make Way move. Command Groups specifically (pg 92) state they move automatically to be in the front row. In other cases models are not normally allowed to move farther than twice their movement during a reform, but command apparently can avoid even this issue.

Your last question actually isn't a bad one either; one would assume you would put the 4th hero in the 3rd rank, but arguably the book doesn't say you can. In general the book isn't terribly clear on ANY of the points, and so stating that it is obviously the case that characters need to move to the front line any chance they get is incorrect. It isn't clear just what they need to do.

Actually RAW you can deploy a couple of characters in the front rank then reform them and put them in the second rank. There is nothing to stop this. Room or not.

Really seems like this is breaking rule 1, now I know why people complain about Teclis so much?
I may field him but I have never tried the 4 Noble BS, usually just 1.

Rule 1: Don't be a dick!
Rule 2: Refer to rule 1. . .