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For those of you who have been playing the new Tomb Kings, or have had access to the army book, I have a few questions about spells and the Casket's bound spell:

First, lets start with the Casket of Souls. Its bound spell causes the target unit to make a Ld test on 3d6 and take damage equal to the amount they fail the test by. So, how does this work on Lizardmen, who take all their Ld tests on 3d6 and drop the highest die?

Second question is about Ptra's Righteous Smiting (I believe) that gives an extra attack. Do all the models in units like chariots and warsphinxes get the extra attack? We agreed "yes" in our game the other day, which gave the sphinx 5 attacks and the crew 8 attacks. It was great!

Last, in the TK battle report in the current issue of White Dwarf, the book's author, Robin Cruddace, played his TK against the High Elves. During one of the rounds he had his liche cast Khsar's Desert Wind on all the units within 24", and allowed it to heal the engaged units too.
Isn't this explicitly not allowed? The lore attribute says that units targeted by an augment are healed 1d3+1 wounds, but Khsar's doesn't allow you to target engaged units. Is the book's author doing it wrong or is it unclear in the rule book (or am I missing something)? There's even a sidebar in the magazine that says "By casting Khsar's Incantation of the Desert Wind this turn, Robin enabled any unengaged units within 24" to move again. The Restless Dead lore attribute also ensured that, whether in combat or not, any affected units would recover D3+1 wounds as well..." I'm baffled.

Thanks for any insight.

parcival42 wrote:For those of you who have been playing the new Tomb Kings, or have had access to the army book, I have a few questions about spells and the Casket's bound spell:

First, lets start with the Casket of Souls. Its bound spell causes the target unit to make a Ld test on 3d6 and take damage equal to the amount they fail the test by. So, how does this work on Lizardmen, who take all their Ld tests on 3d6 and drop the highest die?

Second question is about Ptra's Righteous Smiting (I believe) that gives an extra attack. Do all the models in units like chariots and warsphinxes get the extra attack? We agreed "yes" in our game the other day, which gave the sphinx 5 attacks and the crew 8 attacks. It was great!

Last, in the TK battle report in the current issue of White Dwarf, the book's author, Robin Cruddace, played his TK against the High Elves. During one of the rounds he had his liche cast Khsar's Desert Wind on all the units within 24", and allowed it to heal the engaged units too.
Isn't this explicitly not allowed? The lore attribute says that units targeted by an augment are healed 1d3+1 wounds, but Khsar's doesn't allow you to target engaged units. Is the book's author doing it wrong or is it unclear in the rule book (or am I missing something)? There's even a sidebar in the magazine that says "By casting Khsar's Incantation of the Desert Wind this turn, Robin enabled any unengaged units within 24" to move again. The Restless Dead lore attribute also ensured that, whether in combat or not, any affected units would recover D3+1 wounds as well..." I'm baffled.

Thanks for any insight.

Good question. Unfortunatly, I don't see any reason my the LMs should not benefit from cold-blooded. Both rules force the unit to roll 3d6, but CB allows you to discard one(the highest).

The spell stats models crewing a warmachine, chariot, mounts, etc. So yes, each of the guard on top gets another attack.

You are correct. The spell says it targets unengaged units. Certainly shows how great an armybook/codex writer Cruddace is, not getting his own book right.

Well, I must say that I don't remember the exact wording for the casket, or Ptra's Rightous smiting, so i can't answer those questions.

As for the last question though, the up'd casting value lets it target all units within 24" i believe. So while the unengaged units were targeted and could benefit from the spell, those engaged would be unable to benefit as they are currently locked in combat and can't move. That being said though, the spell did successfully go off, so all units targeted by the spell (whether they benefited or not) regained the d3+1 models.

For Lizardmen and the casket, you would have to roll it off. The casket says to test one way (3dd6), the Lizardmen another (3d6 drop the highest). That said, we played it so you rolled 4d6 and dropped the highest. This is in line with some 40k FAQs, and we despise "the roll it off" cop-out.

As for Smiting, every piece of the model gets +1 attack. So yes, you played it right.

I don't even bother with WD anymore, let alone their Battle Reports. They just wing it, like they do with the rules But it clearly states unengaged units. If they wanted it to still heal engaged units, they could have written it that way, but they didn't.

Yeah, I had thought that using 4d6 would make it fair. I just don't know how my lizard man opponent will like that.

Oh, about the BatRep, do people ever bother to write to GW and point out their extremely blatant errors?

Thanks for the replies.

No matter how you look at it the casket is meh due to BSB re-rolls.

I would say the Lizardmen get to use 3d6 pick the two lowest as it says "For all leadership tests, models with the Cold Blooded special rule roll 3 dice and use the lowest two scores." as it's a leadership test their's would overrule it.

I can't comment on the spells as I haven't read them myself.

For the first: taking the test is when you actually compare a diceroll value to another value; so lizardmen take the test on 2D6, they just get a special way of getting to the 2 dice.

4D6 drop the highest gives the benefit to the LM player, and means you still take the test on 3D6 as required by the casket.

Where the casket is good is on killing warmachine crew, who often arent in BSB range.

For the final one - does the "all units within" version still spevcify it is targetting all units, or affecting them? The actual rule text would be ideal here.

Edit: I'm in Macedonia currently, and my husbands armybook is in the UK

As for WD - remember that they may not have been playing with the final version of the rules when they played the game. The lead time for magazines is huge.

They must take the test on 3d6, adding them together. It overrides the normal rules for leadership tests. So cold blooded does nothing.
And if the spell can't target, you can't heal.

The question is moot, remember the Cold Blooded rule of Lizardmen, apply when "they" roll for Leadership tests. The Casket player is who rolls, and then compares it to the leadership value of the unit affected.

So you roll 3d6 and compare that to the unit.

I am going off memory, so I would suggest people double check the wording of the Casket. . .

I think Cold blooded would be ignored in this case.

I would be content letting the LM player roll 4d6 and drop the highest, but that would just be a compromise to make things work. Seems like a very fair one though.

For the first questions:

3d6 period. Its a special rule where you take a 3d6 leadership and subtract how much you fail by.

2nd question:
Even horses of chariots get 2 attacks!

3rd question:
Read the signature spell at the bottom on page 61. Even if they cant be moved they still regenerate D3+1 wound.

3rd question: they did it wrong

the spell TARGETS unengaged units. Units in combat are not unengaged units, and are therefore NOT targetted by the spell. As they are NOT targetted the Attribute cannot apply to them.

nosferatu1001 wrote:3rd question: they did it wrong

the spell TARGETS unengaged units. Units in combat are not unengaged units, and are therefore NOT targetted by the spell. As they are NOT targetted the Attribute cannot apply to them.

Did you read the signature spell? It specifically states even if they cant be affected they still get the resurrection models. That is why they played it as they did. They played it correctly. As long as they are in the affected area they get the resurrected models.

Tomb King wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:3rd question: they did it wrong

the spell TARGETS unengaged units. Units in combat are not unengaged units, and are therefore NOT targetted by the spell. As they are NOT targetted the Attribute cannot apply to them.

Did you read the signature spell? It specifically states even if they cant be affected they still get the resurrection models. That is why they played it as they did. They played it correctly. As long as they are in the affected area they get the resurrected models.

Actually, that's not what it says.

It says "No unit can be moved by [this spell] more than once per turn (though they still benefit from the Restless Dead Lore Attribute)." There is no exception to the targeting of the spell in that sentence (or any of the preceding sentences), only that a unit can't be moved more than once per turn.

parcival42 wrote:

Tomb King wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:3rd question: they did it wrong

the spell TARGETS unengaged units. Units in combat are not unengaged units, and are therefore NOT targetted by the spell. As they are NOT targetted the Attribute cannot apply to them.

Did you read the signature spell? It specifically states even if they cant be affected they still get the resurrection models. That is why they played it as they did. They played it correctly. As long as they are in the affected area they get the resurrected models.

Actually, that's not what it says.

It says "No unit can be moved by [this spell] more than once per turn (though they still benefit from the Restless Dead Lore Attribute)." There is no exception to the targeting of the spell in that sentence (or any of the preceding sentences), only that a unit can't be moved more than once per turn.

So even though the spell cant affect them. They still benefit from the restless dead lore attribute. That seems pretty clear cut to me.

I think that just means that since it can target them they still get the benefit of the attribute, even though the movement part doesn't affect them. If they can't even be targeted by the spell they can't get the effects at all, lore attribute or otherwise.

Anyone have the exact wording of the spell? If the boosted version affects ALL units within 24" (without mentioning engaged or not) perhaps it does target them?

The boosted version only targets unengaged units, just like the regular version. The unengaged part is the key here. The lore attribute can't affect units that it can't target, and Desert Wind only targets unengaged units.

Tomb King wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:3rd question: they did it wrong

the spell TARGETS unengaged units. Units in combat are not unengaged units, and are therefore NOT targetted by the spell. As they are NOT targetted the Attribute cannot apply to them.

Did you read the signature spell? It specifically states even if they cant be affected they still get the resurrection models. That is why they played it as they did. They played it correctly. As long as they are in the affected area they get the resurrected models.

Did you read the desert wiinds spell?

I guess "no"

The spell TARGETS unengaged units

When in combat are you unengaged? No? Then not only have you nto been affected, you werent even the target of the spell

There is no room for argument on this. None.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Tomb King wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:3rd question: they did it wrong

the spell TARGETS unengaged units. Units in combat are not unengaged units, and are therefore NOT targetted by the spell. As they are NOT targetted the Attribute cannot apply to them.

Did you read the signature spell? It specifically states even if they cant be affected they still get the resurrection models. That is why they played it as they did. They played it correctly. As long as they are in the affected area they get the resurrected models.

Did you read the desert wiinds spell?

I guess "no"

The spell TARGETS unengaged units

When in combat are you unengaged? No? Then not only have you nto been affected, you werent even the target of the spell

There is no room for argument on this. None.

I enjoyed this one "There is no room for argument on this. None" If there was no room for argument then it wouldnt be argued.

Mark my words it will be faqed as they still get the resurrection. The designers and the guys in white dwarf would not have cheated in there game before posting it. lmao. It sets a precident for someone that cant be affected still getting the bonus of the restless dead (lore attritute) EVEN IF THEY CANT BE MOVED WITH THE SPELL AGAIN. The last sentence of the spell gives it obvious room for argument... plenty! lol

The spell can be cast just to generate wounds back across the battlefield.

RAW - If anyone is playing this as they can resurrect models in cc, they are cheating. plain and simple. There is no argument as it says they must be unengaged. Now, in the future if it's FAQ'd to say otherwise, then we can have that conversation then. However, as it stands right now, there is just no argument, it's in black and white.

Tomb King wrote: EVEN IF THEY CANT BE MOVED WITH THE SPELL AGAIN.

Engaged models can't even be targeted.

parcival42 wrote:

Tomb King wrote: EVEN IF THEY CANT BE MOVED WITH THE SPELL AGAIN.

Engaged models can't even be targeted.

Orkimedes wrote:RAW - If anyone is playing this as they can resurrect models in cc, they are cheating. plain and simple. There is no argument as it says they must be unengaged. Now, in the future if it's FAQ'd to say otherwise, then we can have that conversation then. However, as it stands right now, there is just no argument, it's in black and white.

I wont play it as such. But I am 95% sure that this augment spell will get faq'ed to still res. wounds to models within range. I like the no argument thing you all are pitching though. There is always room for argument. I cant play it as healing the wounds in combat but it doesnt change the fact that it can be argued.

Question: Can a unit that cant be affected by a spell more then once per turn still have that spell cast on them twice?

Answer: (no argument... hmmm?)

Given your "argument" ignores that the unit cannot even be targetted, I see why you would still be arguing this

If you actually read all the rules, there isnt an argument. Not only can they not be moved, they are never targetted - and the lore attribute CANNOT kick in.

Try reading all of the posts again.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Given your "argument" ignores that the unit cannot even be targetted, I see why you would still be arguing this

If you actually read all the rules, there isnt an argument. Not only can they not be moved, they are never targetted - and the lore attribute CANNOT kick in.

Try reading all of the posts again.

I know it says this but they had to include this because people would try to move units out of combat. This spell is an Augment spell. It has no defined target. It has an area. So to have target in the argument is kind of null as well. Winds that heal guys would be like oh what are you all doing... no wind for you...

It does have a target though...."All units within 12 inches (or 24 for boosted)" are the targets....(unengaged, by the way)

Tomb King wrote:It has no defined target. It has an area. So to have target in the argument is kind of null as well. Winds that heal guys would be like oh what are you all doing... no wind for you...

You still havent bothered reading the actual spell then? If you had dont then you would know you are now lying.

Sigh.

The spell says, for the 10th time, that it TARGETS units within 24". Yes, this means it is both AoE AND targetted, shock!

It only targets unengaged units
Engaged units are not targetted
Engaged units cannot therefore receive the lore attribute.

Its not difficult. You are also commiting the cardinal fallacy of 1) assuming WD Batreps actually mean anything, rules wise and that 2) they were playing the same version of the rules as those that appear in the finalised armybook. You realise there is a lead time for magazines, yes?

I am not arguing you prove you wrong. I am merely arguing to show that there can be an argument here. You still never answered my question.


Question: Can a unit that cant be affected by a spell more then once per turn still have that spell cast on them twice? Or for our purposes. Be the target of said spell twice?

P.S. If i am remaining clean I would appreciate the same "If you had dont then you would know you are now lying." << not needed!

To answer your question....yes, you can cast a spell on them as many times as you want. However, since they can't be affected, nothing will happen....I don't see how that questions is relevant. Also, you seem to have answered your own question there.