Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Greetings all!

A recent event struck me and I would like to ask dakka if I was at fault or not, and get a better idea of the group of us who claims to play for fun. Now before I start I want to declare that I have nothing against people who play just for fun, the don't do sneak tricks in games, they make casual lists and spare themselves from the heat, I'm cool with that.

Now one of my good friend made a new space marine army, a marine army with a librarian and the rest are all scouts(pretty cool idea really). I asked him how he was going to make it work, direct quote "I don't care if it works or not, all I want is to have fun with it". In my local area being the odd one out is apparently a good thing, so I asked him if its a good theme list, but it doesnt work, how is it cool? He went on and started saying oh I don't play like a donkey cave like someone(he was insulting me, in case anyone missed that) and having a list that sucks helps me practice my style and tactics better. A lot of others told me that I should chill and just don't make him feel bad just because he plays for fun only, which I agreed as I am not an unreasonable person and it was just a friendly discussion.
I also asked him is it because he can't win that he choose to not fight for it at all or he really like losing, he ended the conversation with a mind your own business.

Now something I wanted to point out but didn't was that he made 2 more armies before, challenging me to play him and boasted all kinds of good stuff with his armies but ended up getting table one and a half time(second time I spared logan and another terminator, I think you guys can see what his list was). After both games he was like oh well I don't care about winning and these armies are for fun...I didn't show him or anyone else the text messages he sent me, just to be the nice guy.

Now am I TFG who always want to win?No!I play competitive, more competitive than a lot of players in my area(to be rude, they really suck sometimes), but I never rule lawyer things to make people angry and I never argued in any of my games. I just hate it when people make lame excuses when they lose, and thats why I started that debate.But the important question is...did I do anything wrong?

Also, I want to know the definition of being a casual gamer, does it mean not trying to win?does it mean trying to show that you dont care?
And how can you even get the game going without trying to win?

Thanks for your time ladies and gentlemen

Sorry mate, but once again this is just another post trying to forge an artificial divide. Really I think if the BoLS servers got blown up, and no-one made a post like this for 6 months, people would completely forget about the idea that there are two mutually exclusive camps of how to play the game.

Hate to say it but you might be TFG...

If he is having fun who gives a rats %^*. Now some people say they just come to have fun and get all pissed when they lose. In which this guy doesn't seem to care except when you started to grill him about not optimizing his list. Winning is fun, and so is playing ridiculous lists sometimes. If he gets jaded about never winning help him build a more competitive list. If he continues to loses, well who cares...

Wings of Purity wrote:
I also asked him is it because he can't win that he choose to not fight for it at all or he really like losing

There. That's when you became TFG.

Sometimes, a person really just wants to try out a concept. Nevermind the fact that it won't work, or that it isn't competitive.

This hobby that we enjoy? It's just that - a hobby. A game. If the guy want to boast before a game, then claim 'oh, I only played for fun' after losing, that's his problem. You got to table him? Good for you! Relish the fact that you got to wipe the table with his face. But do it on the inside.

This topic is boring.

Wings of Purity wrote:Also, I want to know the definition of being a casual gamer, does it mean not trying to win?does it mean trying to show that you dont care?
And how can you even get the game going without trying to win?

Thanks for your time ladies and gentlemen

Take me for example. I choose my army first on what models i think look the coolest.
Then i focus on how many of the cool models i like can i fit in an army point limit.
Then i work on whether they are legal or not. ( which often conflict with the above since there are limits usually )

Then i play! I think variety is fun , and people love playing against me cuz i always use different things every game.

Im sorry if thats different then how you view a game , but im pretty sure many people is like me :3

Wings of Purity wrote:Greetings all!

A recent event struck me and I would like to ask dakka if I was at fault or not, and get a better idea of the group of us who claims to play for fun. Now before I start I want to declare that I have nothing against people who play just for fun, the don't do sneak tricks in games, they make casual lists and spare themselves from the heat, I'm cool with that.

Clearly not if you're titling the thread "People who claim to play for fun".

Now one of my good friend made a new space marine army, a marine army with a librarian and the rest are all scouts(pretty cool idea really). I asked him how he was going to make it work, direct quote "I don't care if it works or not, all I want is to have fun with it". In my local area being the odd one out is apparently a good thing, so I asked him if its a good theme list, but it doesnt work, how is it cool?

Yeah. "Theme list" doesn't mean it will be good or work. I can make a Raven Guard themed army using nothing but Scouts and Tactical Squads--it likely won't do too well. But it's themed. If he's found a theme that he thinks is cool and it doesn't work out in tournament player--who are you to question it?

He went on and started saying oh I don't play like a donkey cave like someone(he was insulting me, in case anyone missed that) and having a list that sucks helps me practice my style and tactics better. A lot of others told me that I should chill and just don't make him feel bad just because he plays for fun only, which I agreed as I am not an unreasonable person and it was just a friendly discussion.

Yeah...this isn't helping your case any.

I also asked him is it because he can't win that he choose to not fight for it at all or he really like losing, he ended the conversation with a mind your own business.

This is just a jerk move.

Now something I wanted to point out but didn't was that he made 2 more armies before, challenging me to play him and boasted all kinds of good stuff with his armies but ended up getting table one and a half time(second time I spared logan and another terminator, I think you guys can see what his list was). After both games he was like oh well I don't care about winning and these armies are for fun...I didn't show him or anyone else the text messages he sent me, just to be the nice guy.

And that's different from you coming here to seek validation, how?

It doesn't "make you a nice guy" that you never showed him or anyone else the text messages he sent if you're talking about it here while also bragging about tabling him and using things like "I spared Logan and another Terminator".

Now am I TFG who always want to win?No!I play competitive, more competitive than a lot of players in my area(to be rude, they really suck sometimes), but I never rule lawyer things to make people angry and I never argued in any of my games.

Just because you don't rules lawyer "to make people angry" and never argue in any of your games--it doesn't mean you can't be TFG.

I just hate it when people make lame excuses when they lose, and that's why I started that debate.But the important question is...did I do anything wrong?

"Did you do anything wrong" is subjective. Without knowing the entire situation, the fact that you started the debate is slightly wrong. Insinuating that he's playing with themed lists because he "can't win" is also a wrong move.

Also, I want to know the definition of being a casual gamer, does it mean not trying to win?does it mean trying to show that you dont care?
And how can you even get the game going without trying to win?

No. Casual gamer doesn't mean "not trying to win". That's a myth perpetrated by some folks around here and other forums to try to generate an artificial divide.

"Casual" describes the playing style of someone. Such as, someone who gets to play every once in awhile and goes to have an enjoyable game without really caring to get involved in the whole "tournament" scene.

Now, there is some overlap between the "casual" and "fluff" gamers. Many people who are casual gamers have opponents who are also casual gamers. Thus, they usually play lists that are a bit toned down in the power department and are something that they want to field.

There's a time and a place for tournament lists. If you're playing with groups of people that you know field casual, themed lists--don't be "that guy" who wants to practice his tournament list on them. It gets you a lot of ire.

LunaHound wrote:

Wings of Purity wrote:Also, I want to know the definition of being a casual gamer, does it mean not trying to win?does it mean trying to show that you dont care?
And how can you even get the game going without trying to win?

Thanks for your time ladies and gentlemen

Take me for example. I choose my army first on what models i think look the coolest.
Then i focus on how many of the cool models i like can i fit in an army point limit.
Then i work on whether they are legal or not. ( which often conflict with the above since there are limits usually )

Then i play! I think variety is fun , and people love playing against me cuz i always use different things every game.

Im sorry if thats different then how you view a game , but im pretty sure many people is like me :3

+1.

I also do this. If I really wanted to hammer my opponent into the dirt, would I really want to take Swooping Hawks? No, I take them because they look cool.
Sure there's a part of me that knows that I'm handicapping myself by taking less-than-optimised units, but if they don't LOOK cool, then why would I want to take them?
(For the record, my definition of 'cool' does not include 'covered in skulls and spikes'.)

The winning isn't important to me. Sure, it's good when it happens, but it isn't the main reason I play. I'd rather a hard fought draw than a walkover. It's more satisfying somehow.

chromedog wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

Wings of Purity wrote:Also, I want to know the definition of being a casual gamer, does it mean not trying to win?does it mean trying to show that you dont care?
And how can you even get the game going without trying to win?

Thanks for your time ladies and gentlemen

Take me for example. I choose my army first on what models i think look the coolest.
Then i focus on how many of the cool models i like can i fit in an army point limit.
Then i work on whether they are legal or not. ( which often conflict with the above since there are limits usually )

Then i play! I think variety is fun , and people love playing against me cuz i always use different things every game.

Im sorry if thats different then how you view a game , but im pretty sure many people is like me :3

+1.

I also do this. If I really wanted to hammer my opponent into the dirt, would I really want to take Swooping Hawks? No, I take them because they look cool.
Sure there's a part of me that knows that I'm handicapping myself by taking less-than-optimised units, but if they don't LOOK cool, then why would I want to take them?
(For the record, my definition of 'cool' does not include 'covered in skulls and spikes'.)

The winning isn't important to me. Sure, it's good when it happens, but it isn't the main reason I play. I'd rather a hard fought draw than a walkover. It's more satisfying somehow.

I think it's more satisfying to work hard for a draw, than to just roll over your opponent.

I know I'd rather have a long game end in a draw, instead of setup the game... BOOM you're done... time to box everything up again. On topic, if the game isn't fun, it isn't worth playing.

Reminds me of the list I ran in my last game, with 5 LR tanks in three squadrons and 6 sentinels in two squadrons. Did I expect this list to dominate? Heck no! As it turned out, I managed to pull a draw (thanks in large part to some lucky dice rolls and the fact I was playing a Tau army), but I mainly wanted to play that list to use some models I haven't used in a while.

You fail at trying to appear casual. The axe you want to grind is a bit obvious.)

Hmmm....Thanks a lot guys, I really appriciate your criticism. I really should change my attitude a bit here...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

kronk wrote:This topic is boring.

Then why did you come here?

The real problem here is with both of you. He's being TFG by getting butthurt about losing, and you're being TFG by responding in a negative manner.

Casual gamers aren't the TFG you describe, I assure you. As a casual gamer, I totally get that I stand a chance of losing. A casual gamer isn't someone that hates to win, or plays pure fluff, they're a person who is more excited about playing with minis than anything else. That doesn't mean they hate to win...

I really think the problem here is your opponent, but not knowing the whole situation I really can't say.

Wow, look how badass I am I tabled a guy and then rub it in by asking if he likes losing. I glad I never have to play you. Learn some social skills. You even keeped it up after some else at the store said you should stop. They have a name for people like that.

Hi all.
As 40ks appeal is MAINLY asthetic.MANY players choose thier army on how they want thier army to look.
If you dont have an affinity for your army , you are less likley to spend the time to make it astheticaly appealing as possible, and this is a MAJOR issue for some players.

Other players are more focused on the competative aspect of playing a game , and are less concerned with the asthetic elements.

A wargame suitable for ballanced competative play will alow both types of players to build thier armies how they want and have an equal chance of winning ,(if both players are equaly skilled and motivated to win that is.)

However ,why anyone would choose the 40k game system for competative play is totaly beyond my comprehension.

It has NO provable level of balance , it has clunky counter intuitive game mechanics and is poorly defined and supported.
(All these things are less important in narrative games.)

40k is like an expencive classic car , it cost a fortune to buy to run and maintain, but if you love the look of the car , you get you moneys worth.

If however you want to race competativley , you would be FAR better off buying a modern car built specificaly for the type of racing you want to do.

40k is more like a vintage car rally,than the World Rally Championship!

TTFN

However, why anyone would choose the 40k game system for competative play is totaly beyond my comprehension.

Agreed

My only answer would be 'for fun'

Evidently to the OP this is not a game. THIS IZ SERIUS BUZINESS!

I think a lot of 'just for fun' players feel they can't be competetive, maybe there is a tournament player at their club no one can beat, so don't bother and just make list for the fun of it. I say this as I think this is pretty much where I am at, sortof. I know I can win but I really don't like the lists & tactics to do so, so I play silly fun lists. Generally this is okay as most of my mates do the same.

The problem is that competetive players get annoyed at fun lists, especially so if they lose (you can't fight the dice gods). I guess they feel the other player is not challenging them and wasting their time.

In another game I play I suggested to the other player that we state Competetive or Fun before we play but he said no to that; so I make fun lists and he beats me but still gets mad. Then I make a competeive list and beat him and he's not happy.

40K is the same, players can compromise and compromise but unless players are 100% honest about what they want someone will end up unhappy. And if neither player compromises then there will be no winners in the fun stakes.

And the truth is that even those 'just for fun' players, deep down, still want to win.

There are more ways a person can have personality defects beyond "TFG."

Clearly, you're buddy uses "I dont' care if I win, I'm not a WAAC jerk like you" as an expression of sour grapes. It's inappropriate and more than a little mean, but the noble response would be to accept it at face value, and move on. Saying "well, you still put up a great fight" or something similar shows that you had fun, and arent dismissing his tactical skills (which he clealry thinks he has.)

Where you seemed to go off the rails was in interrogating the guy about why he's building a fluff list. It seems likely he's realizing he can't play, so he's giving up the pretext. Playing with a weak list will give him a built in excuse to lose.

I can see being annoyed, but nobody likes having their motives questioned. He's clearly a surly git, but it's not like his psychological weakness is hard to spot or overly offensive.

Yeah, it seems like there's issues on both sides.

Given the history you state, it DOES seem as though your friend has, up until now, been mainly concerned with playing competitively and, having realised that he needs to practise a bit, has changed his tune. Which isn't cool.

But on the other hand, by stating that he must just 'like to lose', you are being TFG. The assumption that lists define who wins a game isn't accurate. A player who knows his army really well and has a lot of experience with it will often beat someone with a 'better' list, but who hasn't played with it as much.

It's also not that people 'like to lose', just that they don't connect the idea of winning with the idea of 'having a fun game'. I can have a fun game regardless of if I win or lose. And an easy win isn't fun at all. It's not that i LIKE to lose, and obiously while playing the game I'm attempting to win, but if it happens that I DO lose, it's not going to ruin my day...!

Wings of Purity wrote:
Now one of my good friend made a new space marine army, a marine army with a librarian and the rest are all scouts(pretty cool idea really).

Does it ever bother anyone that all the librarian models look like they're yelling? I've never heard a librarian yell. Usually they're all just 'sssssh'. It seems like yelling would be completely counter productive to what they do. Then again, what with all the running around in hulking armor shooting lighting bolts from their fingers, I would imagine that they don't really actually have to tell people to be quiet too often. I know I wouldn't be making a lot of noise around one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here, I'll contribute something meaningful:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/328368.page

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/364738.page

Two threads, both covering this topic, both active within the last two weeks.

Wings of Purity wrote:

kronk wrote:This topic is boring.

Then why did you come here?

To tell you, and anyone else that posts this SAME FREAKING TOPIC every week, to stop being boring.

It's a public service I perform.

The scariest people that claims to play for fun , are the TFG+PowerGamers mixed all into one.

When they arnt sure they can win, to not lose face they'll "play for fun" then proceeds to rub in every insult you can think of.

Come to think of it this happens in WoW every time people duel.

Then they're not really playing for fun.

They're pulling it out as an excuse.

Polonius wrote:There are more ways a person can have personality defects beyond "TFG."

Clearly, you're buddy uses "I dont' care if I win, I'm not a WAAC jerk like you" as an expression of sour grapes. It's inappropriate and more than a little mean, but the noble response would be to accept it at face value, and move on. Saying "well, you still put up a great fight" or something similar shows that you had fun, and arent dismissing his tactical skills (which he clealry thinks he has.)

Where you seemed to go off the rails was in interrogating the guy about why he's building a fluff list. It seems likely he's realizing he can't play, so he's giving up the pretext. Playing with a weak list will give him a built in excuse to lose.

I can see being annoyed, but nobody likes having their motives questioned. He's clearly a surly git, but it's not like his psychological weakness is hard to spot or overly offensive.

/thread.