Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I had a run in with this situation and wanted to get some feedback.

What happened: BA Librarian Dred uses its blood lance to hit a IG squad in front of it and then has the distance to pass over the base of a Valkyrie. The opponent says the blood lance can not hit the Valkyrie because weapons target the haul of the vehicle and his Valkyrie is in the air. I was under the impression that as long as the weapon can hit the base of the flying model it is assumed it hits the model its self... That though comes from: what if a person was to put a Valkyrie on a high enough stand were 6" weapons cant reach it, would it be unshootable to those weapons? or why cant it be shot but conveniently lands when a unit wants to assault it? What about if a Battle Sister shoots her Inferno Pistol range 6" two D6 at 3". If the Valkyrie base is within that range but the model is not will it be impossible to use that weapons ability on a flying model?

Any thought on the situation that can be backed by rules would be awesome.

You have to shoot the hull, same as ever. Shooting the "base" ignores the rules that state the base of skimmers is ignored except for assault and, for valks, disembark and claiming objectives.

It is entirely possible for some guns to then be out of range. Its part of the game.

However, a blood lance can be angled upwards; who's to say it is a line in the vertical dimension as well as horizontal?

BurnBurn_MoreFire wrote:That though comes from: what if a person was to put a Valkyrie on a high enough stand were 6" weapons cant reach it,

That would be cheating and is spelled out in the main rules.

Nothing states how tall the Blood Lance line is. Did the line pass through the unit? I assume if the line went through the base of the model, then the line went through the model.

jbunny wrote:Nothing states how tall the Blood Lance line is. Did the line pass through the unit? I assume if the line went through the base of the model, then the line went through the model.

That's because a line is two-dimensional, if it had any vertical distance it would be a plane.

If the player declared the IG squad as the target and drew out the 'line' at an angle sufficient to hit at least one model in the IG squad and pass through the hull of the Valkyrie, then yes, both units would be hit. In the case described above, I don't think that happened and the Valkyrie wasn't hit.

The base is used for embarkation, disembarkation and assaults. Shooting weapons and LOS are resolved against the actual vehicle.

DoW

The base is used for embarkation, disembarkation and assaults

Umm... only assault right?

DogOfWar wrote:That's because a line is two-dimensional, if it had any vertical distance it would be a plane.

If the player declared the IG squad as the target and drew out the 'line' at an angle sufficient to hit at least one model in the IG squad and pass through the hull of the Valkyrie, then yes, both units would be hit. In the case described above, I don't think that happened and the Valkyrie wasn't hit.

The base is used for embarkation, disembarkation and assaults. Shooting weapons and LOS are resolved against the actual vehicle.

DoW

If you look at the line from above, it would pass through the space occupied by the valk. I would say it hits the valk.

as the line is only stated as being 2 dimensional you would have to declare that the blood lance was angled upwards.

in which case only the Valk would get hit(unless there were any tall ruins with guys in them in the way.

One dimension = length
Two dimensions = length and either height or width
Three dimensions = length, height, and width

A line is one-dimensional. A plane is two-dimensional. A whole object would be three-dimensional.

Two-dimensional could mean a plane without width, so according to blood lance it would be however long with an unspecified height.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimension

If a line is 2-dimensional, then it can't hit anything on a hill. Just a thought

Revision of previous statement:


the blood lance is a 1 dimensional line that is fired in a 3 dimensional space and so only objects that are intersected are hit.


the angle of the line must be defined when fired.

Loredragon2 wrote:

The base is used for embarkation, disembarkation and assaults

Umm... only assault right?

A specific change was made to the rules for the taller flight base used for the Valk and the Storm Raven, allowing players to use the base for dis/embarking and measuring to objectives. See the Guard FAQ, or the Blood Angel and Grey Knight Codexes.

I foresee 6ed either developing the rules for vertical elevation (perhaps in a similar way to the aborted abstract terrain size rules of 4ed), or else flattening everything into a single vertical plane.

thx everyone for the input. I have a better idea of the situation now. I think in the case of jaws of the wolfen were it states everything thats hit by the line is affected applys to this. But in the case of the Blood lance were it says everything in the path is hit I feel the Valk would be hit. In the air or not its still in the path.

DogOfWar wrote:

jbunny wrote:Nothing states how tall the Blood Lance line is. Did the line pass through the unit? I assume if the line went through the base of the model, then the line went through the model.

That's because a line is two-dimensional, if it had any vertical distance it would be a plane.

No.

Firstly, lines are one dimensional.

Secondly, a line can be one-dimensional without being parallel to any axis.

If you use the Blood Lance, you should invest in a little laser pointer. Place one end on the base, or touching the Librarian. Point it at the target. Anyting with a dot on it gets hit, then move it out of the way until you've reached range. Ta da!

(btw, if it were a plane, then why doesn't the Librarian just fire it so the plane is horizontal instead of vertical? I'd totally want to hit everything on the table instead of in a line. That's all "fluff," though, not rules)

Scott-S6 wrote:

DogOfWar wrote:

jbunny wrote:Nothing states how tall the Blood Lance line is. Did the line pass through the unit? I assume if the line went through the base of the model, then the line went through the model.

That's because a line is two-dimensional, if it had any vertical distance it would be a plane.

No.

Firstly, lines are one dimensional.

Secondly, a line can be one-dimensional without being parallel to any axis.

True enough, my mistake.

With regards to the OP, the point still stands. A line is not a plane and such cannot intersect anything other than the immediate space between the two points. Therefore, the Valkyrie cannot be hit unless the line drawn was angled upwards towards it (which would be unlikely given that the target was the guardsmen).

DoW

Agreed, the valk does not get hit. The base is merely the representation of the point on the ground where the valk is hovering over, it is not itself a model and therefore cannot be targeted. Also, You can't model a higher base to gain an advantage. All conversions must be for aesthetic reasons only and cannot change how a model is targeted.