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I have played my friend a number of times now and this is just pissing me off to no end. He lines a salamander up parallel to my battle line then shoots down the line even though there are units in combat between the sallie and its intended target.

he says that true line of sight means that even though there is a combat going on he can see through the unit to the one on the other side, I call BS but he argues that all he needs to see is a part of the model and draw a line in between my intervening models with no penalty

what inevitably ends up happening is my models in combat get hit, his don't, sometimes the unit he is shooting at gets hit plus mine in combat

does this seem even remotely fair or legal (obviously I don't think its fair and goes against the spirit of the game)

I am obviously biased but a 75pt model that can decimate ANY other unit on the table with no draw backs (march and shoot, shoot into combat, ignore monsters and handlers) requires some serious nerfing

and I have attempted to deal with them using a variety of techniques (my latest was favourite charged with a chariot, he was in a forest but rolled a 1 of course and chariot died to trees!) and little seems to work

I am sick to death of a 75pt model destroying 350+ pt units nuff said

cheers

Papasmurf

You cannot from or into combat. Period. The only time is when a blast weapon scatters.

TLOS means he can declare his shot at the unit beyond. If he doesnt roll high enough then he will hit your models in combat.

Nothing prevents this.

Interesting. I've always fired my cannons with the initial range set in a manner that it can't possibly land in combat on any roll of the artillery die.

Does he have any possible chance of hitting the unit he's aiming for? It's not out of range is it?

Cannons have specific rules about never being able to be aimed to hit something in combat. Meaning that if a cannon shot has any chance to hit into combat, whether the roll is a 2, 10, or anything in between then it can't be fired that way (pg 112, towards the bottom under Choose Target).

Salamanders do not have that specific restriction.

Davall wrote:Cannons have specific rules about never being able to be aimed to hit something in combat. Meaning that if a cannon shot has any chance to hit into combat, whether the roll is a 2, 10, or anything in between then it can't be fired that way (pg 112, towards the bottom under Choose Target).

Salamanders do not have that specific restriction.

It doesn't matter according to the rules this is illegal, that rule is not just for cannons it also applies to breathe weapons, and since the Salamanders fire a sort of bw, they can't do this.

I might be incorrect, but frankly when he does this reach across the table, and slap him. You can't purposefully shoot into combat unless your Skaven.

The sallie shoots more like a fire thrower than a breath weapon, and those too have no such restrictions.

Page 56 – Salamander Hunting Packs, Special Rules
Add “Monster & Handlers”.
Page 56 – Salamander Hunting Packs, Hunting Pack
Change the first paragraph to “Salamanders are treated as
Monsters for the purposes of the Monster & Handlers rule.
The unit may not be joined by characters.”
Q. Is the Salamander’s shooting attack treated as a Breath Weapon?
(p56)
A. No.

That's the extent of the FAQ on Salamanders.
So, the hunting pack is monsters and handlers, and the salamander is the handler. The shooting attack is not a breathe weapon.

Hey, does the salamander description say that you roll for partials? The FAQ doesn't include a partials auto hit, and the base rules say use the rule book (re:gyrocopter).

I'll dig out my rule book in the morning (most likely monday), but I think that for his shot to be legal, at the very least:
1) his declared target must be in range
2) his declared target must not be in melee
3) he must have a possibility of hitting his target without hitting the unit in melee.

If he can't hit the "target" without dropping it into melee, I think it's illegal.

-Matt

The salamander is the Monster, think you got it the wrong way round there

You do not roll for partials, so partials == hit as per everything but the poor gyrocopter.

HawaiiMatt wrote:3) he must have a possibility of hitting his target without hitting the unit in melee.

Provide proof.
So far i've seen no rules forbiding a fire thrower of a sallamnder to "accidentaly" fry fighting or even friendly units.

citadel97501 wrote:

Davall wrote:Cannons have specific rules about never being able to be aimed to hit something in combat. Meaning that if a cannon shot has any chance to hit into combat, whether the roll is a 2, 10, or anything in between then it can't be fired that way (pg 112, towards the bottom under Choose Target).

Salamanders do not have that specific restriction.

It doesn't matter according to the rules this is illegal, that rule is not just for cannons it also applies to breathe weapons, and since the Salamanders fire a sort of bw, they can't do this.

I might be incorrect, but frankly when he does this reach across the table, and slap him. You can't purposefully shoot into combat unless your Skaven.

You may want to recheck the Salamander rules (not a breath weapon, no classification period).

The only rule is you can't place the template on a unit in combat, before you scatter it. If it scatters onto one, it's all good.

Once again, a GW FAQ (along with for Flame Throwers) would solve all of this, and I can't believe it doesn't get asked.

We need to make a questioning drive.
Have as many people as we can gather send an e-mail to GW asking this.

Yes but he can place the template so that it will never touch his own models of course

I have looked through the book and it is the "true line of sight" that is the issue, how can you have true line of sight THROUGH a combat! It is a swirling conflux of strikes and parries and bodies so despite the fact that the models are lined up just nicely in ranks I fail to see how that allows you to draw line of sight through them

One solution I am considering is rebasing my units so that they are staggered in the ranks slightly so as to block LOS through the unit

I really feel that the base represents the model and if you can't draw LOS past the base then you should not be able to see period.

cheers

Papasmurf

nosferatu1001 wrote:The salamander is the Monster, think you got it the wrong way round there

You do not roll for partials, so partials == hit as per everything but the poor gyrocopter.

Odd, I thought the text in the salamander book said that partials are hit on a 4+.
You're right about the monster, no more late night posts for me on rules.

-Matt

there are no more partials as per BRB

cheers

Papasmurf

PapaSmurf wrote:there are no more partials as per BRB

cheers

Papasmurf

Not 100% true. See Gyrocopter FAQ wording.

Papsmurf - you're missing the TRUE part of TLOS

You are suggesting that, instead of TLOS we should have non-TLOS.

really are you being serious or just a giant jerk?
What I am saying is it doesn't make any #@$%ing sense in any world, fantasy or not

dont see a lot of templates flying over the top of infantry in combat that just "happen" to fall on the combatants in 40K do you? and it uses TLOS

Guess I also have big issues with a number of other 8th ed "improvements" to the game I love

cheers

Papasmurf

You cannot see a unit through another unit, especially one in combat. You can't spot a goblin unit through another goblin unit, but i would make the argument that you could see a bull unit through a unit of gnoblars.

That being said, on page 39 in the BRB it says "you cannot purposefully aim a template so that some of your models will be hit. For the salamanders, this would then rule out the option of shooting over another unit, plus they don't have line of sight. That's just a quick look at the book, but how the people at my local GW have been playing it and it works out pretty well.

I can't agree more but try getting my friend to agree to that is like trying to move a mountain with a mouse

cheers

Papasmurf

No need for name calling Papa. It's a good quote from the BRB- if that doesn't do the trick, then it seems like you'll just need to plan on icing those salamanders before they get to take up such awful positions for you. Disc rider should work, and they should be a high priority for magic missiles.

I fired all my warmachines at them in my last game against lizards (ignoring two stegs to do so), because I knew the amount of mess they'd cause if they got in.

Yes, salamander breath weapon at -3 to armor (I think) + dwarfs armed to the teeth = barbeque...

I'd say those sallies should be the number one target for pretty much any army, but especially for highly armored and tightly packed armies like WoC and dwarfs.

I play Lizzies and I love my Sally's. I would never claim LOS of a unit with another unit between unless the other unit was a large target like the Gobbo spider. So I think your friend is wrong about the LOS, but hitting other units, even in combat is okay.

This happens usually when I target, say a warpfire weapons team. These usually run alongside a unit of rats that are often in combat. I will target the weapons team and sometimes the template would extend far enough to hit the unit in combat. Knowing this might happen I of course angle the shot so it won't hit my unit. All perfectly legit in my eyes. Cheesy? Perhaps, but usually I really want to get rid of that weapons team, or imperial attachment.

But seeing a unit through another unit of similarly sized models...no.

The LOS issue is situational but easy enough to check in this case, you just get down and find out what the sallamander cans with his rather close to the ground eyes.
Since the unit will contain up to 3 sllies doing that is not a problem.

he only runs them in groups of one, using a laser pointer you can probably draw a line through the ranks of my troops to the other unit, I just really feel that it is taking unfair advantage of a loophole, ie sallies not being breath weapons and the STUPID True LOS to achieve an unfair advantage, no other army can do it save skaven but that is their schtick - life is cheap

Wolf - of course you love your sallies, a 75pt model that can rip entire armies to shreds, whats not to love? Oh and don't forget the auto panic check if you take 1 (ONE!!!!) casualty

cheers

Papasmurf

Take the 2+ ward vs fire item and go sally hunting with a flyier, it isnt too hard.

Sallies are hardly the worst thing in a world of hydras and HPA.
If Sallies are breathe weapon they'd be outright useless.

Pap - firstly, no, not being a jerk. Not called for, its a game, yes?

The game was purposefully moved away from the faux-LOS (a mix of real LOS and the heights system, which was stupid in a number of ways) to a single, consistent system: if you can see if you can shoot it.

Secondly: name a variable range template weapon in 40k. Go on. FOund one? No? Shock. thats why you dont see it - they dont exist. False analogy is false analogy. You can however have Blast Markers scatter into combat just fine - however the scatter dice adds an extra element of "luck" just not present with the Salamanders

Thirdly: Sallies are not a "breath" weapon because, frankly, that would be stupid. 75pts for a single shot per game? Uh, no.

Finally: the BRB quote simply says you cannot cover your own models, nothing about the template on random distance ending in combat - that is perfectly fine.

It is ENTIRELY possible for him to be able to draw TLOS through one unit to another. That's the rules, and if you want to have houserules - fair enough. Seems like your friend doesnt, however.

PapaSmurf wrote:there are no more partials as per BRB

cheers

Papasmurf

You better read that section again. MOST weapons ignore partials.
Stone throwers say ignore partials, so anything that says it fires like a stone thrower does. However, if the salamander wording says that 4+ to hit on partials, and it doesn't say resolve like a breathe, then you are rolling for partials.
That's why the Gyro is rolling for a 4+ partials; it's wording says so, and the basic rule is "Most" not "All".

Deploy from one table edge to the middle, and put warriors of tzeench (with shields) and the ward save banner on the outside. That way, you get a 6+ save followed by a 4+ save against said salamander.
Use flying heroes to go hunt him down (and/or daemon prince).

-Matt

Your advice for handling them is sound but trust me I have tried it! most times just can't get to grips with him - terrible dice over and over and OVER again

cheers

Papasmurf