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Can dreadnoughts hide behind rhinos and chimeras for a cover save an shoot over them?

If you take a stock dreadnought on standard base with magnetized arms the weapons can see over the rhino / razor if you point them upward somewhat but there is some debate if they can shoot forward at this upward angle given that 45 degrees is kinda small. I don't have one to actually test it myself.

This also depends on how you model your auto cannon arms as well.

However many players myself included have their entire army on scenic resin bases which looks cool but it also gives the dreadnought some added height so this is just the right height so the dreadnought can shoot over the rhino or chimera in front of it with minimal elevation of the arms.

Some people are mounting their dread auto cannons on the shoulders ala Battle Tech which also looks cool but lets them shoot over Rhinos or Chimeras in front.

Does anyone have a picture of a stock dreadnought on the usual plastic base behind a chimera/rhino with magnetized arms that can take a photo to see the exact angle of the weapons and whether they have the arc to fire forward?

So can or can't the dreadnought fire over the rhino or chimera in front? Are Resin bases on dreadnoughts or shoulder mounted auto cannons modeling for advantage?

This is pretty important because it determines how Grey Knights plays against other armies. Venerable Dreadnoughts behind rhinos or chimeras for cover saves are pretty ridiculous with fortitude so I'm inclined to say they can't hide behind vehicles and still shoot but what is the proper ruling here?

Avariel wrote:Are Resin bases on dreadnoughts or shoulder mounted auto cannons modeling for advantage?

Yes, that's pretty much exactly what people mean when they say 'modeling for advantage'. Isn't there an example about scenic bases in the rulebook?

No i dont think so you would have to get sumthing like a whirlwind or land raider

I don't think this wil be the defining characteristic of how well Grey Knights will play. This is modelling for advantage cheese. If you do, be prepared for your opponent to be taking cover saves against your shots...

I say go by the stock height. Before playing set agreement terms - if they can see over and fire over a vehicle simply because they are on a scenic base, you should as well. If they disagree with it, find a new player to play with. Model Advantage really doesn't fly with me unless they give ME that same advantage as well.

I think so. Remember, it is also assumed that the guns have a latitude of 45 degree up and down arc of fire.

Also, scenic bases are a double-edged sword. It may give you more height to shoot, but then again, it also makes the dread harder to get a cover save, as more of its body would be exposed.

But as ninjakinshu said, if you get it, then so do I. Fairness must go both ways.

Just because your dreadnought is in cover does not mean the enemy gets a cover save. Best way to do this, I would say, is to use a laser pointer to see if the dreadnought's weapon can even see past the tank (just because the weapon is over the hull and the dead's driver can see does not mean the dread's weapon has a free line of fire).

Also, if the base really does make a difference, then keep in mind that you're supposed to use the bases supplied with the model. There's a difference between modelling for advantage where you use the material provided (kneeling Wraithlords, for example) and using material that aren't really supplied with the model.

Avariel wrote:If you take a stock dreadnought on standard base with magnetized arms the weapons can see over the rhino / razor if you point them upward somewhat but there is some debate if they can shoot forward at this upward angle given that 45 degrees is kinda small.

If the weapon is pointing upwards over the rhino, then no, it can't shoot forwards. You point the weapon at the target and trace LOS along the barrel. So a weapon pointed up in the air is shooting up in the air.

Are Resin bases on dreadnoughts or shoulder mounted auto cannons modeling for advantage?

If you're doing it give yourself some sort of advantage, that would seem to fit the definition...

This is pretty important because it determines how Grey Knights plays against other armies. Venerable Dreadnoughts behind rhinos or chimeras for cover saves are pretty ridiculous with fortitude so I'm inclined to say they can't hide behind vehicles and still shoot but what is the proper ruling here?

The proper ruling is that when you are playing a game and someone tries to actually do this, you get down and have a look. If the dreadnought can draw LOS to the target, then it can shoot. There are too many variables for anyone to give a simple yes or no answer.

My auto-cannon dreads are not modeled for advantage and the top barrel of each auto-cannon arm can certainly see over a rhino.

yes, you can shootover Rhinos and Chimeras with Dreds.

your opponent will be getting a cover save just the same as you though so its a double edged sword.

most of the time, when a vehicle has a cover save it will also be giving its targets a cover save too.

If you can trace a clear LOS from the weapon mounting down the barrel as it points at the target, you can shoot.

If you have to point the barrel up in the air to get it clear of an obstruction, then no, you don't have LOS.

I just tried this out with an assault cannon dread and a chimera. The cannon is not high enough to fire. Even if the barrel was just higher that the hull of the chimera, the gun would be unable to fire at anything that was shorter than the tank. I would say that they are not supposed to be able to, although I suppose some of them can. It is best to take it on a case by case basis, as any blanket conclusions could be wrong.

On another point, I would have thought that a twin linked weapon that could only see with the top barrel would be unable to fire, or at least not get the twin linked bonus. You don't want to shoot your own tanks at point blank range, do you? Not really covered by the rules though, so unimportant.

Grey Templar wrote:yes, you can shootover Rhinos and Chimeras with Dreds.

your opponent will be getting a cover save just the same as you though so its a double edged sword.

most of the time, when a vehicle has a cover save it will also be giving its targets a cover save too.

This is not necessarily the case at all. The dread shooting over the rhino follows the same rules as a loota shooting over a grot. If los is not blocked and the dread is not shooting _through_ a unit then a cover save is dependent on the condition of the target.

You have to use the base supplied with the model...but nothing says you can't add to that base...by making it a scenic base. If you make a model taller, then as has been stated before, it's a double edged sword, because it's harder to get cover.

yes for cover
if it has line of sight yes it can fire

olympia wrote:My auto-cannon dreads are not modeled for advantage and the top barrel of each auto-cannon arm can certainly see over a rhino.

So you're saying the gun cannot clear the a rhino then.

DarknessEternal wrote:

olympia wrote:My auto-cannon dreads are not modeled for advantage and the top barrel of each auto-cannon arm can certainly see over a rhino.

So you're saying the gun cannot clear the a rhino then.

Only one barrel needs to draw line of sight.

olympia wrote:Only one barrel needs to draw line of sight.

Well this is a debatable point really. The rules (pg 31) state that "A set of twin-linked weapons count as a single weapon of that type...".

Does this mean that both barrels need to be counted as "the barrel", as the two weapons are counted as one, should not the two barrels be counted as one? If not, why should the upper barrel take precedence over the lower barrel? It makes my head hurt thinking about the pages and pages that could be argued over this, but my point is that it is no where near a cut and dried issue.

I can't answer these questions, there is little basis to do so and much of what I could type would simply be my own biased opinion.

Edit: I really hope that I have not missed something really really obvious. Then I would look like a fool.

We had a whole thread about the double-barrelled question.

Some folks were of the opinion that you just need one to count. Others were of the opinion that this would count as an obscured target and grant cover saves.

There is no clear resolution in the RAW. You'll have to come to an agreement with your opponent.

Its situations like this that i would actually like to see walkers, or maybe a subclass to include dreadnoughts, wraithlords et al., to resolve shooting LOS like infantry: from the eyes [enter LOS argument about wraithlords not having eyes from a year ago]. It makes more sense when you consider the dreads (or equivalent) would be trying to take advantage of cover and take up firing positions just like infantry do. Therefore I think similar rules should apply.

This was just food for thought as I fully understand it is not how the rules work in the current edition.

Autocannons would certaintly have LoS as they are a taller weapon.


the LoS might also change depending on your pose of the dred. if hes standing straight up then he will probably draw LoS, but if he is in an action pose he might not.

I have a dread from the AoBR boxset with 2 x FW Autocannon arms on a stock base. The AC arms point straight out from the body (IE: not pointing the arms upward for modelling advantage) I put a Rhino in front of it and the Autcannons are clearly above the Rhino.

Can't say about a Chimera, but mine is very clear it can fire over a Rhino.

I actually think Chimeras are slightly shorter then Rhinos.

except for the Multi-laser turret of course, but the back area should be shorter or the same height.

More than half of the model will be covered (unless the model shooting at it is a storm raven or something much higher up when drawing los) so yes, you would get a cover save.

As for the dreadnought being able to shoot; you have the 45 degree arc and los. So in most cases, he won't even be able to target something on the other side of the chimera/rhino etc unless you leave small gaps in your formations

DakkaDakka wrote:

My converted Aegis gun aobr dreadnought on a stock base the top gun can see over the rhino fine the bottom can not but I kept the stock aegis gun and didn't put the barrels closer and made it with minimal work. I have a scenic base dread that it can see over it cause the dread is standing on a pile of orks.

I'd have to take a look at yermom's dreads again and see if they can shoot over a Rhino at something on the ground. When I played yermom we played it that they could see the Vendettas which were up in the air while hiding behind rhino which was what counted anyway.

Avariel's can because her's dreads are custom on resin bases with side by side double barrel shotgun configuration. I bet she could take them off the resin bases put them on normal bases and the barrels might still clear the Rhino but again people might see this as modeling for advantage putting the barrels side by side but I think it looks cool as hell.

It seems like it really depends on how you make your auto cannons and arm mounts as there is no set in stone for those either.