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So I have two questions for the smart tacticians of DakkaDakka

Is it possible to have a competitive army (or at least semi competitive army) that is centered around 1-3 storm ravens. the more the better.

and if it is, would it be better done with the GK codex or the BA codex!

i think so but i haven't tried it personally. i would also like to hear from someone who has tried this.

Stormraven lists tend to be all or nothing. One turn of turbo-boosting and then pray to the 4+ gods (or 3+ if you have GK shrouding). If the ravens survive to the next turn they'll deliver an assault payload that will devastate the target. However, many times you will find that long fangs/lootas/riflemen dreads kill your Stormraven to death despite the "flat out" save.

Olympia:

If you have one then that can be the case. If you have 3 then 2 should survive and it also means they are not shooting at your other units.

With a three Stormraven army (best part of 700 points before upgrades) - the three Chunderehawks ARE your other units. Once you've got three decent squads, you've pretty much spent your points...

It can also depend on your local metagame. In our escalation league we don't really have armies that destroy ravens that well. The biggest threat is the GK player who plays 1-2 psyfleman dreads and he doesn't use a libby so he can't hood my shrouding. I have yet to have a raven go down! *knocks on wood*

I have 2 Stormravens and use them in both my BA and GK. They have their uses in both armies, with the biggest difference being the missle payload. Bloodstrikes are S8 and AP1, so if you dump them into armor it goes bye bye... the Mindstrikes are S4 and put the hurt on psykers. To me, the missles help define their role in my armies... the BA version is usually fire support at medium to long range with Lascannons and Typhoons to complement the Bloodstrikes. The GK version loads up with Hvy Bolters, Assault Cannons, and Hurricanes all with Psybolts and stay in that GK sweet spot of 18-24" range support... you make your Hurricanes S5 and therefore not defensive anymore but you have Mindstrikes that are only S4 filling the defensive weapon role nicely when you need to move quickly. I almost always lose both of them but I have found them to be well worth their points in both army effectiveness and pure fun.

Short version: It's good in both lists, gives you versatility and excitement... it's probably not as effective as razorspam but it's way more fun to play.

I definitely agree with them being more fun to play! I would say for GK's look at your weak spots. I use mine w/ MM and lascannons as enemy armor gives me a hard time. The missiles are only used for me when armor doesn't threaten me anymore.

Here's a BA list with 3 Stormravens:

HQ: Mephiston 250
EL: Furioso Dreadnought with Blood Talons 125
EL: Furioso Dreadnought with Blood Talons 125
EL: 5 TH/SS Terminators 225
TR: 10 Assault Marines with 2 Meltaguns 210
TR: 10 Assault Marines with 2 Meltaguns 210
TR: 5 Death Company Marines with 1 Power Fist 125
TR: Death Company Dreadnought with Blood Talons 125
HS: Stormraven 200
HS: Stormraven 200
HS: Stormraven 200

Total: 1995

I think it demonstrates the challenges of running multiple Stormravens. You really want to fill them with nasty cargo, to make use of their expensive transport capacity, but that means using elite units, and hence not enough Troops.

Honestly, I don't think triple raven lists will work for any army, but here's a random 2000 GK list I threw together:

Crowe

Librarian: warp rift, shrouding, summoning, teleport homer, master crafted halberd

3x purifier squads: 10 purifiers, 1 hammer, 4 psycannons, psybolt ammo

2x stormravens: melta, lascannon, hurricane bolters, warp stabilization field

1x stormraven: melta, lascannon, hurricane bolters


Anti-tank shooting: 3 twin-link multi-meltas/lascannons, warp rift, 24-48 psycannon shots

Anti-infantry shooting: 12 blasts/18-36 twin-link strength 4 shots (all defensive), 36 strength 5 shots, 24-48 psycannon shots, warp rift

Assault: piles of initiative 6/strength 4 or 5 force weapon attacks, 3 daemonhammers

3-6 scoring units

The stormravens are more durable thanks to fortitude and any of them staying close enough to the librarian will benefit from 3+ shrouding cover when moving flat out. Librarian can also summon any unit with pin point accuracy.

I don't have the models to run an army like this but it does sound like a lot of fun to play

I would say blood angels Raven lists are slightly better simply based on the CC dreads they bring to the table. A psycannon dread in a stormraven is well silly.

Theres alot more going on when you compare the 2 armies in a storm raven list:

GK ravens are far more durable with fortitude.

GK HQ options boost a storm raven list far more than BA options do. Librarians can shroud and summon and bring teleport homers, GMs can bring the ravens in from reserve faster and make any units inside scoring, and both can bring servo skulls to make deep strikes and blast weapons more accurate.

GK ravens are far better at anti-infantry than BA ones thanks to mindstrike missiles and psybolt ammo

BA lists bring far superior close combat dreads with furioso and death company.

BA are far better at anti-tank shooting thanks to bloodstrike missiles.

The infantry inside the ravens are about equal in quality, with a slight edge going to GK given the wide access to high initiative force weapons and stormbolters/psycannons.

Overall, the BA list will have better long range anti-tank and more units (because they are cheaper) while the GK list will be slightly more balanced against all units and have better defense.

Don't forget that blood angels can give the units inside the Raven storm shields, giving them great durability against heavy hitting enemies both shooting and in CC, where as the Grey Knights simply lack the ability to take 3++ outside of crusaders, acoyltes and Draigo.

huh It seems to be Gk has a more balanced way to play a Stormraven list, I've been thinking of trying a list like that. I'll post one up soon.

GK ravens are far more durable with fortitude.

Fortitude is a minimal upgrade to the dependability of the storm raven. It doesn't make them any more resistant to damage, and with extra armor and power of the machine spirit, the boast to give them a little extra shooting at the end of the day isn't a huge deal. Because it is a psychic power, most storm ravens in grey knights still need to take extra armor anyways, as a bad roll or a blocked power can severely hamper it.

GK HQ options boost a storm raven list far more than BA options do. Librarians can shroud and summon and bring teleport homers, GMs can bring the ravens in from reserve faster and make any units inside scoring, and both can bring servo skulls to make deep strikes and blast weapons more accurate.

Shrouding is a winner as far as a Storm Raven goes, and being able to Manipulate reserve rolls as you see fit is a big deal as well. The issue will always be how much do you want to throw into it to pull all that off, and again, psychic defense can foil those plans regularly enough.

GK ravens are far better at anti-infantry than BA ones thanks to mindstrike missiles and psybolt ammo

Which because grey knights generally need as much anti-tank they can get a hold of, that isn't a strong point in the GK storm ravens favor. However, move flat out and firing a twin linked MM is the one thing that is very unit for that codex. As stated, psybolt takes away defensive weapons from the hurricane bolters which makes an already heavy price tag upgrade slightly worst, efficiency wise.

BA lists bring far superior close combat dreads with furioso and death company.

Which are also at a cheaper cost. Truth be told, Grey Knights don't have anything that they actively want to deliver quickly to assault.

BA are far better at anti-tank shooting thanks to bloodstrike missiles.

Which, in an army of highly mobile tank shooting, is rather a big deal and helps the Storm Raven fit a lot of different support roles in the BA army.

The infantry inside the ravens are about equal in quality, with a slight edge going to GK given the wide access to high initiative force weapons and stormbolters/psycannons.

This is where I disagree the most. Grey Knights on the pure stat line are a superior troop, but Blood Angels can field far more aggressive troops with a lot more durability in the form of FNP. Plus it should be noted that Blood Angels have a lot more troop options that actively wants to engage in assault at a cheaper price point then Grey Knights who have some decen combat abilities, but most certainly don't want to aggressively persue combats. Grey Knights are a midrange firepower army, Blood Angels is an aggressive assault army with excellent long range fire support. When discussion a fast skimmer with an assault ramp it because very clear which Marines want to be inside is more.

Overall, the BA list will have better long range anti-tank and more units (because they are cheaper) while the GK list will be slightly more balanced against all units and have better defense.

Storm Ravens are an interesting element of the Grey Knight army.

On one hand, they don't have the raw combat potential of Blood Angels to really take advantage of the rapid deployment potential of the craft. Their storm ravens are not plugging the hole of long range anti-tank like the Blood Angels version.

On the other hand, they are a fast attack choice, which makes the decision to take them less troublesome, as you can have your long range anti-at cake and eat it too. They also bring the very rare and precious commodity of mobile move and fire melta, which that codex severely lacks.

My general rule when it comes to the storm raven is to keep them cheap, and to keep their cargo cheap. Too often, players fall into the trap of overloading the storm raven and paying the consequences when a competitive army shoots them out of the sky in a turn.

With Blood Angels, I found their best use to be another mobile lascannon and multi-melta in the army. The only thing I ever put in them anymore is a Blood Talons Dreadnought or other low cost assault unit.

With Grey Knights I am thinking the same thing roughly. A storm raven with a MM Venerable Dreadnoughts is the way to go if you want to have Storm Ravens in that army. Put two of that combo on the table, and you can really threaten the type of tanks normal GK units will struggle against. Whether or not that is worth the roughly 800 point price tag is debatable.

We seem to agree on most points but a few.

First: non-psyrifle GK dreads. I have never seen these preform as well as the psyrifle version does. The twin autos have more shots, more accuracy and longer range, something that GK are desperate for.

The standard dread (melta/ccw) is OK, just like it is for other marines. But its really no different from all the other GK units that have good short range firepower and assault. It really doesn't do anything that you can't find somewhere else. Whereas the psyrifle dread fulfills the role of long range fire support better than any other unit in the codex.

On a related note, you *could* outfit the stormravens with assault cannons/heavy bolters/hurricane bolters and make them even more devastating against infantry. But GK need long range anti-tank 1000% more than they need anti-infantry, because literally every unit is good at fighting infantry. If you did take the infantry lawn mower route, the stormraven will probably devastate even terminators and IG power blobs, by sheer volume of fire, but its really a waste when you can get other units to do that for you.

Units that can carry decent anti-tank weapons in GK really, really need to be taking those weapons, and as many as they can, in order to take down the average mech army.

I will be taking a 3 stormraven GK list for Ard Boyz.

my list is

HQ
Castellan Crowe 150 pts
Librarian (Warding Stave, Mastery level 3, Psychic powers(Might, Quicksilver, Sanctuary, Shrouding, Warp Rift) 260 pts

Troops
10 Purifiers (2 psycannons, Deamonhammer, 2 pairs of Falchions, 5 halberds, psybolts) 305 pts
10 Purifiers (2 psycannons, Deamonhammer, 2 pairs of Falchions, 5 halberds, psybolts) 305 pts
10 Purifiers (2 Incinerators, 8 Halberds, psybolts) 276 pts
Rhino (searchlight) 41 pts

Fast Attack
Stormraven (Multi-melta, Hurricane Bolters, Psybolts, searchlight) 256 pts
Stormraven (Multi-melta, Hurricane Bolters, Psybolts, searchlight) 256 pts
Stormraven (Multi-melta, Hurricane Bolters, Psybolts, searchlight) 256 pts

Heavy Support
Dreadnought (Multi-melta, heavy flamer) 125 pts
Dreadnought (Assault Cannon, heavy flamer) 135 pts
Dreadnought (Assault Cannon, heavy flamer) 135 pts

2500 pts


Purifiers in Stormravens with the Libby.

Crowe has to jack the Rhino and try and become a distraction.

the Libby provides 3+ cover while the Stormravens zip around shooting one gun a turn.

then, when the time is right, everyone comes piling out of the Ravens and begin to take away the Virginity of my enemies

I would find a way to put extra armour on the ravens so you can always move, one failed save or two could bring your list down fast.

doubled wrote:I would find a way to put extra armour on the ravens so you can always move, one failed save or two could bring your list down fast.

Fortitude makes EA redundant.


yeah, one failed save could hurt me, but hopefully that doesn't happen. and when it does, I will be close enough to threated the enemy when i get out.

Grey Templar wrote:I will be taking a 3 stormraven GK list for Ard Boyz.

my list is

HQ
Castellan Crowe 150 pts
Librarian (Warding Stave, Mastery level 3, Psychic powers(Might, Quicksilver, Sanctuary, Shrouding, Warp Rift) 260 pts

Troops
10 Purifiers (2 psycannons, Deamonhammer, 2 pairs of Falchions, 5 halberds, psybolts) 305 pts
10 Purifiers (2 psycannons, Deamonhammer, 2 pairs of Falchions, 5 halberds, psybolts) 305 pts
10 Purifiers (2 Incinerators, 8 Halberds, psybolts) 276 pts
Rhino (searchlight) 41 pts

Fast Attack
Stormraven (Multi-melta, Hurricane Bolters, Psybolts, searchlight) 256 pts
Stormraven (Multi-melta, Hurricane Bolters, Psybolts, searchlight) 256 pts
Stormraven (Multi-melta, Hurricane Bolters, Psybolts, searchlight) 256 pts

Heavy Support
Dreadnought (Multi-melta, heavy flamer) 125 pts
Dreadnought (Assault Cannon, heavy flamer) 135 pts
Dreadnought (Assault Cannon, heavy flamer) 135 pts

2500 pts


Purifiers in Stormravens with the Libby.

Crowe has to jack the Rhino and try and become a distraction.

the Libby provides 3+ cover while the Stormravens zip around shooting one gun a turn.

then, when the time is right, everyone comes piling out of the Ravens and begin to take away the Virginity of my enemies

Nice! Mine is similar but with 2 sets of everything and a stupid big unit of Paladins for shock and awe. Is the Mastery 3 worth the 50 pts on the Libby?

lvl 3 is definitly worth it as you can cast multiples of the same power(unless its a PSA) twice.

so you could give 3 different units Quicksilver.


or cast Might of Titan and Hammerhand and Quicksilver on the libbies unit.

olympia wrote:Stormraven lists tend to be all or nothing. One turn of turbo-boosting and then pray to the 4+ gods (or 3+ if you have GK shrouding). If the ravens survive to the next turn they'll deliver an assault payload that will devastate the target. However, many times you will find that long fangs/lootas/riflemen dreads kill your Stormraven to death despite the "flat out" save.

Olympia is right here. Too many eggs in too few baskets. I'd probably run one in a mech list making the army a bit more flexible. But otherwise, I'd stay away from them.

I think you can be competitive with Ravens, just not the MOST competitive. Currently I am running a 3 raven GK list w/ 2 SS's, 5 paladins, a libby for shrouding, and 3 dreads with "psycannons." So far it has done very well. The downside is that certain builds just absolutely kill Stormraven lists.

would a raven work better alongside stunt units which could harass the enemy enough to bring the firepower away from the stormravens?

or I was thinking of a list that has Coteaz and a bunch of cheap units of melta-henchies, for 106 points you can get 3 meltas in a chimera. A few of those to work under the ravens may be nice, with the ravens holding strike squads or termies (if there are points for them).

Here is the list I was thinking (I'm using the online version so correct me if any points are off):

HQ
Coteaz-100
Librarian Psychic powers: Summoning, Shrouding, might-165

Troops
Henchmen, 3 warriors with melta, chimera-106
Henchmen, 3 warriors with melta, 2 servitors with MM, 1 crusader, chimera-141
Strike Squad, 10 marines, 2 psycannons, Demonhamer, three Falcion-260
Strike Squad, psycannon, Demonhamer, one Falcion-130
Strike Squad, psycannon, Demonhamer, one Falcion-130

Fast:
Stormraven (Multi-melta, Hurricane Bolters, Psybolts, searchlight) 256 pts
Stormraven (Multi-melta, Hurricane Bolters, Psybolts, searchlight) 256 pts
Stormraven (Multi-melta, Lascannon) 205 pts

Heavy:
Dred (MM, CCW)
Dred (MM, CCW)

Total: 1999.


What do you think?

Sage, you would have to playtest to see how it would do. I don't know personally how good henchman are as I run pure GK's.

My list is as follows,

Libby - Sanctuary, Shrouding

10 * Strike Squad w/ 2 psycannons, hammer, psybolts
10 * Strike Squad w/ 2 psycannons, hammer, psybolts

5 paladins: 1 hammer & psycannon, 1 halberd & psycannon, 1 halberd, 1 sword, 1 warding stave

Dreadnought w/ "psycannon"
Dreadnought w/ "psycannon"
Dreadnought w/ "psycannon"

Stormraven w/ TL MM & TL lascannon
Stormraven w/ TL MM & TL lascannon
Stormraven w/ TL MM & TL lascannon

I disagree with the all or nothing approach to SR's.

I have had good success with a single Stormraven in a BA list coupled with multiple tanks and one Land Raider. The key is to keep the SR's payload cheap. One taloned dread in the SR and either assault termies or pw dc in the LR. This gives the opponent a bigger immediate HtH threat in the pw DC in a LR to deal with and the SR can be effective.

I can easily see how Single stormravens can be used, but I'm looking to see how an all stormraven list would work.


pdawg, I may want to try out your list as well. But do you put the autocannon dreds in the stormravens, wouldnt the long rang of the AC be nullified by bringing them close to the enemy.

Sageheart wrote:I can easily see how Single stormravens can be used, but I'm looking to see how an all stormraven list would work.


pdawg, I may want to try out your list as well. But do you put the autocannon dreds in the stormravens, wouldnt the long rang of the AC be nullified by bringing them close to the enemy.

No, the entire point of autocannon dreads is to shoot from long range every turn, or failing that, just to shoot. These guys are no better from 12" range than they are at 48", and in fact are probably worse considering they are now within enemy charge range. Load them up in a stormraven and you can't fire until the dread gets out, which begs the question of why you put it in there in the first place?

I stand by the claim that short ranged dreads do not have a place in GK armies. You have literally any other unit the codex that can fight at those distances and close to assault if you need them to. Dreads have a unique role to fulfill that you won't find anywhere else in the codex. If you bring them, might as well exploit their 1 advantage over the rest of the army.

well, a Short ranged dred is good hanging fom the back of a Stormraven to lend his strength to the assault.


a Multi-melta or another Assaultcannon with psybolts is always a good thing.

a Str10 force weapon for killing big nasties isn't bad either. pop vehicles and slow monsters.

They are not autocannon dreads, they are "psycannon" dreads (assault cannon w/ psybolts).