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I saw in the codex: Blood Angels that the Eldar were helped. quick description of the Semmel Betrayel:



Now, who would help te Eldar?

Other Eldar...
Dark Eldar.
Tau...

Knights of blood possibly..........

The Knight of Blood wouldn't attack their own gene-line would they?
Maybe if they were desperate but to help Eldar?
They would have fallen a very long way for that to happen.
Ordo Xenos Inquisition maybe...

The Blood Angels are just less circumspect than they ought to be. All the aspect warriors were out to lunch in a near by system and you know how it can be when your craftwords all like " oh boo hoo the blood angels are killing us and stuff".

All the aspects warriors were like "Oh those cute little guardians pulling our legs". A little later when all the Aspect warriors were playing pool one of the dark reapers happened to be looking through a telescope at their craft world and realized that the blood angels were really killing the guardians.

And was like "hey guys lets go back to the craft world, their getting dead and stuff". Then they went back and made mon'kiegh pie and danced the time warp.

All covered in the 3rd edition eldar codex.

^ Guardians are cute =p


No, Knights of Blood will never attack other Sons of Sanguinius. Like on the defence of Baal in 999 m41, they make sure they dont fight next to other armies, so THEY wont be killed.

Knights of Blood still are as noble as other loyalist space marines, but the red thirst and Black Rage are wavy more common.

Well if it's a Betrayal then it can only really be enacted by Imperial forces.

The Blood Angels can hardly call it a betrayal if more eldar show up.

Purplefood is probably heading along the right path with the Inquisition being responsible.

Well played.

Wouldn't Mr. Spoiler there HELP the Blood Angels? After all, they're best buds!

That's why it's a betrayal, silly.

Eumerin yeah!@

Blood Angels... Necron allies...

Thats quite a thing these days.
Blood Angels forced to fight with necrons because they will both all die. Yeah, thats to cry about.

^More like bro-fisting afterwards and taking off after making plans to meet for lunch the next day. It makes me cry a little on the inside...

A betrayal only occurs if you trust someone, they agree to do something for you, then they reveal they lied and stab you in the back. The arrival of more xenos is no betrayal, and given how every single battle-brother on that strike force died, jumping to the "betrayal" conclusion seems like they're grasping at straws there.

Elector wrote:^More like bro-fisting afterwards and taking off after making plans to meet for lunch the next day. It makes me cry a little on the inside...

A betrayal only occurs if you trust someone, they agree to do something for you, then they reveal they lied and stab you in the back. The arrival of more xenos is no betrayal, and given how every single battle-brother on that strike force died, jumping to the "betrayal" conclusion seems like they're grasping at straws there.

Actually, its more like "Blood Angels forced to fight with necrons because they will both all die." Your bro-fisting idea that seems to be causing you so much inner turmoil is complete conjecture.

As for the Betrayal; I think the Tau can be safely ruled out as being responsible since their empire is in the other side of the galaxy from Baal.

Ironsight wrote:

Elector wrote:^More like bro-fisting afterwards and taking off after making plans to meet for lunch the next day. It makes me cry a little on the inside...

A betrayal only occurs if you trust someone, they agree to do something for you, then they reveal they lied and stab you in the back. The arrival of more xenos is no betrayal, and given how every single battle-brother on that strike force died, jumping to the "betrayal" conclusion seems like they're grasping at straws there.

Actually, its more like "Blood Angels forced to fight with necrons because they will both all die." Your bro-fisting idea that seems to be causing you so much inner turmoil is complete conjecture.

As for the Betrayal; I think the Tau can be safely ruled out as being responsible since their empire is in the other side of the galaxy from Baal.

No, the fighting alongside each other because of a greater, common threat is fine, the part where the codex says (and I quote):



(I bolded the important part)

So yeah, they didn't technically bro-fist, but given how the Space Marine belief is the whole "kill the alien, the mutant, the heretic" and all xenos, fighting alongside a bunch of silent robots normally bent on the eradication of all life shouldn't make killing them all in the name of the Emperor a distasteful idea.

I reckon the harlequins turned up. Or maybe the dark eldar.

Probably both.

Harlequins: "We're going to do a dance recital on Craftworld X. Stupid Mon'keigh think they can kill our peeps. Wanna join the fun? You can keep what you kill (or not)."

Dark Eldar: "Sweet. We are so there."

It can't be the Eldar, any flavour, because...

IT'S A BETRAYAL! A BETRAYAL! AN EMPORER DAMNED BETRAYAL!

Quick logical question:

If the identity of the force that assisted the Eldar is unknown, how can the Semmel incident be termed a betrayal?

I mean, if you really DON'T know who did it, then how do you know more Eldar didn't help them, or Tau, or some other alien species inimical to the Imperium?

Either it's completely misnamed as the Semmel Betrayal, or the Blood Angels have SOME information about the incident. This could be as minimal as "The Eldar told us that one of our allies has betrayed us." or "Whoever these forces were, they were using Imperial technology."

I say, let's blame those douchebag "Grey Knights". I mean, what have they ever done to help the Imperium?

Medium of Death wrote:It can't be the Eldar, any flavour, because...

IT'S A BETRAYAL! A BETRAYAL! AN EMPORER DAMNED BETRAYAL!

Interesting point. Betrayal can also be unintentional, though. The Eldar infamous for their information-gathering. It's possible a nearby ally gave off the Blood Angels intentions, and then a force of Eldar, Dark Eldar of Harlequins or whatever arrived. That's just thin conjecture though. Its worth noting that there are a number of clandestine organizations besides the Inquisition operating throughout the universe. Groups like the Cabal and the Illuminati come to mind, though I don’t get the feeling either were involved.

Elector wrote:

Spoiler:

Blood Angels Codex pg 16 wrote:"Following the final battle[...]Dante and the Silent King go their separate ways, both forces now too battleworn to guarantee victory over the other, and, at least for the Blood Angels, the idea of turning on those they had so recently fought alongside, a rather distasteful one."

(I bolded the important part)

So yeah, they didn't technically bro-fist, but given how the Space Marine belief is the whole "kill the alien, the mutant, the heretic" and all xenos, fighting alongside a bunch of silent robots normally bent on the eradication of all life shouldn't make killing them all in the name of the Emperor a distasteful idea.

What? You mean the Blood Angels, a group known for their upstanding nature and wisdom lead by the oldest and wisest marine in all the Imperium decided to let the retreating Necrons go after barely fighting off a Tyranid invasion, rather than waste time, resources and lives resuming combat with only 50/50 chance of finishing them off sounds silly to you?
Letting the go turned out to be a good idea after all, seeing as how there's now several ocean tanker-loads of whoopass heading towards Baal as of M41.999.

Because, of course, thanks to Ward, the Grey Knights mindwipe/execute everyone they fight alongside, so no Imperial Forces should be aware of any of their heroic actions. Great idea, Ward!

The Grey Knights eradicated allies who knew too much long before Ward arrived on the scene.
Maybe its time to get off the bandwagon?

Ironsight wrote:
The Grey Knights eradicated allies who knew too much long before Ward arrived on the scene.
Maybe its time to get off the bandwagon?

The Grey Knights did eradicate some allies, and mindwipe others, before Ward arrived on the scene.

After Ward arrived on the scene, Space Marines were submitting to mindwipes. Millions of troops tangentially connected to the Battle for Armageddon were eradicated (and, given that Logan Grimnar and the Space Wolves were not, were eradicated even though information about the Battle for Armageddon would be known ANYWAY).

My point was two-fold:

First, that something (enforced secrecy) which occasionally happened before Ward was now presented as standard practice after Ward. Note how a place that occasionally gets your order wrong is less annoying than a place that always gets your order wrong? Same kind of thing.

Second, that as a consequence of the pathological emphasis on secret operations, the Grey Knights would actually have trouble working with Imperial Forces.

"General, we are here to assist you in combating this moral threat."

"And you are?"

"A small contingent of the Grey Knights, devoted to fighting the daemonic wherever it might arise."

"And you Grey Knights have done so where, precisely?"

"Arma...no. Well, actually, um."

"So, you Grey Knights show up out of nowhere and claim to be Daemon-hunting experts, but you can't tell us anywhere you've actually fought Daemons. Let's just wait and see if some Crimson Fists or something show up, shall we?

Da Butcha wrote:
The Grey Knights did eradicate some allies, and mindwipe others, before Ward arrived on the scene.

After Ward arrived on the scene, Space Marines were submitting to mindwipes. Millions of troops tangentially connected to the Battle for Armageddon were eradicated (and, given that Logan Grimnar and the Space Wolves were not, were eradicated even though information about the Battle for Armageddon would be known ANYWAY).

No

Humans have always been executed without a second thought after the battle. Space Marines have always been mind-wiped because they are not so easy to replace. Ward had nothing to do with this, and this has nothing to do with the Semmel Betrayal.

Da Butcha wrote:
My point was two-fold:

First, that something (enforced secrecy) which occasionally happened before Ward was now presented as standard practice after Ward. Note how a place that occasionally gets your order wrong is less annoying than a place that always gets your order wrong? Same kind of thing.

Second, that as a consequence of the pathological emphasis on secret operations, the Grey Knights would actually have trouble working with Imperial Forces.

"General, we are here to assist you in combating this moral threat."

"And you are?"

"A small contingent of the Grey Knights, devoted to fighting the daemonic wherever it might arise."

"And you Grey Knights have done so where, precisely?"

"Arma...no. Well, actually, um."

"So, you Grey Knights show up out of nowhere and claim to be Daemon-hunting experts, but you can't tell us anywhere you've actually fought Daemons. Let's just wait and see if some Crimson Fists or something show up, shall we?

This was actually a plot point in one of Ben Counter's Grey Knight books. Its a good series. I suggest you read it if you haven't already.

Reason for Edits: Quotes

Ironsight wrote:

Elector wrote:

Spoiler:

Blood Angels Codex pg 16 wrote:"Following the final battle[...]Dante and the Silent King go their separate ways, both forces now too battleworn to guarantee victory over the other, and, at least for the Blood Angels, the idea of turning on those they had so recently fought alongside, a rather distasteful one."

(I bolded the important part)
So yeah, they didn't technically bro-fist, but given how the Space Marine belief is the whole "kill the alien, the mutant, the heretic" and all xenos, fighting alongside a bunch of silent robots normally bent on the eradication of all life shouldn't make killing them all in the name of the Emperor a distasteful idea.

What? You mean the Blood Angels, a group known for their upstanding nature and wisdom lead by the oldest and wisest marine in all the Imperium decided to let the retreating Necrons go after barely fighting off a Tyranid invasion, rather than waste time, resources and lives resuming combat with only 50/50 chance of finishing them off sounds silly to you?
Letting the go turned out to be a good idea after all, seeing as how there's now several ocean tanker-loads of whoopass heading towards Baal as of M41.999

No, you read the wrong bold part, the fact they found killing necrons after fighting alongside distastful was my big issue. I'm a huge fan of the BA, and yes, retreating at that point was a sound tactical choice. It was the second part of my quote I bolded that you ignored that was my point.

I think the name is wrong.

Da Butcha wrote:The Grey Knights did eradicate some allies, and mindwipe others, before Ward arrived on the scene.

After Ward arrived on the scene, Space Marines were submitting to mindwipes. Millions of troops tangentially connected to the Battle for Armageddon were eradicated (and, given that Logan Grimnar and the Space Wolves were not, were eradicated even though information about the Battle for Armageddon would be known ANYWAY).

This actually dates back to Realms of Chaos - everyone gets killed except the Space Marines because they're too expensive to casually dispose of. They get turned into barely-there mind-scrubbees instead.

GW has since toned things down somewhat with indications that the Grey Knights might not be quite so ruthless. The fact that Logan Grimnar actually remembers what happened on Armageddon is an example of that. But it appears that Ward has taken things back to the original fluff in this particular area.

It has to be.