Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Coteaz - 100p

3 warriors, 2 with flamer - 42p
razorback with las/plas - 75p
3 warriors, 2 with flamer - 42p
razorback with las/plas - 75p
3 warriors, 2 with flamer - 42p
razorback with las/plas - 75p
3 warriors, 2 with flamer - 42p
razorback with las/plas - 75p
3 warriors, 2 with flamer - 42p
razorback with las/plas - 75p
3 warriors, 2 with flamer - 42p
razorback with las/plas - 75p
3 warriors, 2 with flamer - 42p
razorback with las/plas - 75p
3 warriors, 2 with flamer - 42p
razorback with las/plas - 75p
3 warriors, 2 with flamer - 42p
razorback with las/plas - 75p
3 warriors, 2 with flamer - 42p
razorback with las/plas - 75p
3 warriors, 2 with flamer - 42p
razorback with las/plas - 75p
3 warriors, 2 with flamer - 42p
razorback with las/plas - 75p
3 warriors, 2 with flamer - 42p
razorback with las/plas - 75p
3 warriors, 2 with flamer - 42p
razorback with las/plas - 75p
3 warriors, 2 with flamer - 42p
razorback with las/plas - 75p
3 warriors, 2 with flamer - 42p
razorback with las/plas - 75p

1970p total

Technically this army is legitimate. Take a look at your codex and find out for yourself. If I played against this army I would walk away swiftly. Talk about your loophole decimating army.

Edit the points to match up my bad clerical error.

No it's not. This list is completely illegal.

Coteaz does not cost 150 points.
3 Warrior Acolytes with 2 Flamers do not cost 22 points.

Get it right before you post deliberately stupid lists.

Edit: They don't cost 42 points either. Are you sure YOU have the codex?

Points were off sorry my bad.

As for it being legal it is. Cotez allows you to take Henchman as troops and gives an unrestricted amount of taking them. Henchmen do not take a force organizational place on the chart and so you can have as many as you wish. The list is legit. (so 6 of them are troops the rest dont have a place on the FOC)

I do have the Codex, right now I and I do mean I believe that Coteaz Henchmen will take a FOC, but until there a FAQ there going to be alot of debit about your list. If you are going to a tournament make sure that you ask a TO about your list.

It was illegal because you were about 100 points over.

Everyone knows about the contention over the Coteaz rule mate, no need to start an arguement or show us a list we've all seen before.

I like the idea of an all henchmen list too but the one above is pretty beardy. The way I see it and would play it with friends is if you have an inquisitor you could take 1 henchmen band for that inquisitor and it wouldn't be Force Org choice. However, taking henchmen as a troops choice without an inquisitor would count as force org. So in total I could have 8 henchmen warbands.

More than 6 henchmen is indeed legal.

Until FAQ rule changed, it will remain that way if you play by RAW. And by RAI, in my opinion. Others may contend the RAI, but not the RAW.

Yes I do belive you would walk away quickly, as nobody would play such a thing. Lol, this is a make no friends army list. You should call the army " Only the Lonely"

Bumb for a troll. Get over yourself. If you need a FAQ to tell you no then sit on your thumb. Read as desired would be the rules interpretation you are applying. Why post this?

Hytanthas wrote:Points were off sorry my bad.

As for it being legal it is. Cotez allows you to take Henchman as troops and gives an unrestricted amount of taking them. Henchmen do not take a force organizational place on the chart and so you can have as many as you wish. The list is legit. (so 6 of them are troops the rest dont have a place on the FOC)

How can they not take a place on the chart and yet you're counting 6 of them as troops? You've still got to fill you're madatory troops choices. (Because although they're troops, they don't count towards the FOC requirements.)


MA.

MaliceAngel wrote:

Hytanthas wrote:Points were off sorry my bad.

As for it being legal it is. Cotez allows you to take Henchman as troops and gives an unrestricted amount of taking them. Henchmen do not take a force organizational place on the chart and so you can have as many as you wish. The list is legit. (so 6 of them are troops the rest dont have a place on the FOC)

How can they not take a place on the chart and yet you're counting 6 of them as troops? You've still got to fill you're madatory troops choices. (Because although they're troops, they don't count towards the FOC requirements.)


MA.

Wrong.

They don't use up FOC slots. They can still fulfill requirements. This is clearly seen by reading the FOC slot rules. Let's be honest now, you have never actually read the FOC slot rules.

"Quite a few codex books include units that, much like dedicated transports, are not part of the army's Force Organisation Chart. This may be because they are too puny, specialised support units or simply not part of the main fighting force of that race. Often lablled with terms such as "supernumeracy" or "Insifnificant" these units normally do not count towards the number of choices the player can make from the Force Organisation Chart and have rules that will clearly tell the player how many can be included in his force."

-Taken from page 87 of the Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook.

I've bolded the parts that I believe are relevent.

MA.

Yes. They don't count towards the number of choices that you can make.

However, the fact that they do not use up your available choices does not stop them from existing as choices made, which qualifies the minimum FOC requirement rules.

Also, on page 90 of Codex: Grey Knights under "Inquisitorial Henchmen Warband" it says:

"This unit does not use up a force organisation slot"

If this is the case how can a unit which does not fulfill a slot still fulfill its requirements?

MA.

The FOC requires that you MAKE CHOICES.

Whether or not the choice you made uses up, counts towards the maximum of, or any other sort of nonsense, does not matter.

Right, the way I see this is:

The FOC requires you to take 1 HQ and 2 Troops.

Henchmen do not contribute towards the minimum of 2 Troops.

Hence, his list has 1 HQ and a bunch of non-fulfillers.

Ergo, the list is illegal.

Let's just agree to disagree.

MA.

MaliceAngel wrote:Right, the way I see this is:

The FOC requires you to take 1 HQ and 2 Troops.

Henchmen do not contribute towards the minimum of 2 Troops.

Hence, his list has 1 HQ and a bunch of non-fulfillers.

Ergo, the list is illegal.

Let's just agree to disagree.

MA.

The FOC requires that you make 1 HQ selection and 2 Troops selections.

"Henchmen do not contribute towards the minimum of 2 Troops."? No.
Wrong, false, incorrect. There is zero rules supporting this concept you have in your mind.

Taking a unit of Henchmen counts as making a selection. Taking a unit of henchmen also does not use up a selection.

I will not agree to disagree. You are wrong, you probably never actually read the FOC rules in your own codex, and you are too lazy to not be ignorant. Let's just agree to that.

1) Henchmen are normally limited to one per Inquisitor and do not take up a force organization chart

2) Coteaz make henchment troops choices

3) Coteaz removes the limit of 1 per inquisitor - i.e. not limited by the number of inquisitors in your army

4) Thus - they are troops; you are limited to 6 by the force organization chart . simple as that...

Please read the Codex pg. 86 - Coteaz Entry: "Inquisitorial Henchmen are TROOPS CHOICES (of which a maximum of six are allowed as per FOC) in an army that includes Inquisitor Torquemada Coteaz, and are not limited by the NUMBER OF INQUISITORS IN YOUR ARMY (normally 1 per inquisitor)" note - text in () are added by me - rest is direct quote

If you go by sentence 2 under the the Elites Section of "This unit does not us up a force organization slot." Which isn't really logical as that is based on the previous sentence (limiting to 1/inquisitor), then you would still need to take your mandatory 2 troops choices

ph34r wrote:The FOC requires that you make 1 HQ selection and 2 Troops selections.

"Henchmen do not contribute towards the minimum of 2 Troops."? No.
Wrong, false, incorrect. There is zero rules supporting this concept you have in your mind.

Taking a unit of Henchmen counts as making a selection. Taking a unit of henchmen also does not use up a selection.

I will not agree to disagree. You are wrong, you probably never actually read the FOC rules in your own codex, and you are too lazy to not be ignorant. Let's just agree to that.

Insulting language is not the way to have a civilised debate.

I can see clearly where you are coming from you've made your point and so have I. However, I refuse to be a part of a rules debate which deteriorates into one member becoming rude and insulting just because someone disagrees with him/her.

MA.

MaliceAngel wrote:

ph34r wrote:The FOC requires that you make 1 HQ selection and 2 Troops selections.

"Henchmen do not contribute towards the minimum of 2 Troops."? No.
Wrong, false, incorrect. There is zero rules supporting this concept you have in your mind.

Taking a unit of Henchmen counts as making a selection. Taking a unit of henchmen also does not use up a selection.

I will not agree to disagree. You are wrong, you probably never actually read the FOC rules in your own codex, and you are too lazy to not be ignorant. Let's just agree to that.

Insulting language is not the way to have a civilised debate.

I can see clearly where you are coming from you've made your point and so have I. However, I refuse to be a part of a rules debate which deteriorates into one member becoming rude and insulting just because someone disagrees with him/her.

MA.

Calling you lazy is not terribly rude. Did you read the FOC rules? I don't think you did. It's an easy cop out to say that you are refusing to continue debating, though. Saves yourself a lot of effort that might have gone into trying to form a logical counter-argument.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

mray01 wrote:1) Henchmen are normally limited to one per Inquisitor and do not take up a force organization chart

2) Coteaz make henchment count as troops choices

3) Coteaz removes the limit of 1 per inquisitor - i.e. not limited by the number of inquisitors in your army

4) Thus - they are troops; you are limited to 6 by the force organization chart . simple as that...

Please read the Codex pg. 86 - Coteaz Entry: "Inquisitorial Henchmen are TROOPS CHOICES (of which a maximum of six are allowed as per FOC) in an army that includes Inquisitor Torquemada Coteaz, and are not limited by the NUMBER OF INQUISITORS IN YOUR ARMY (normally 1 per inquisitor)" note - text in () are added by me - rest is direct quote

No where does this imply that you can take as many as you want or disregard the force org chart. There is no need for a FAQ on this, it is quite clear.

Henchmen warbands with Coteaz are troops choices.


They also don't use up FOC selections.

Taking Coteaz does not remove the rule that makes them not take FOC selections.


If you somehow find a rule on Coteaz that does in fact remove this rule, feel free to point it out.


"But ph33333334r, all troops use up FOC slots, you know that! duh!"
And so do all elites units. Except when they have a rule that says they don't. Just like troops units that have a rule that says they don't.

ph34r wrote:Calling you lazy is not terribly rude. Did you read the FOC rules? I don't think you did. It's an easy cop out to say that you are refusing to continue debating, though. Saves yourself a lot of effort that might have gone into trying to form a logical counter-argument.

Calling someone lazy is rude.

Yes I did read the FOC rules. As with all things, people interprate them differently - such as you and I for example.

I have given you my counter-argument and provided quotes as to why I believe so in previous posts. The fact of the matter is, I'm yet to see a single quotation from you supporting your end of the debate.

MA.

MaliceAngel wrote:

ph34r wrote:Calling you lazy is not terribly rude. Did you read the FOC rules? I don't think you did. It's an easy cop out to say that you are refusing to continue debating, though. Saves yourself a lot of effort that might have gone into trying to form a logical counter-argument.

Calling someone lazy is rude.

Yes I did read the FOC rules. As with all things, people interprate them differently - such as you and I for example.

I have given you my counter-argument and provided quotes as to why I believe so in previous posts. The fact of the matter is, I'm yet to see a single quotation from you supporting your end of the debate.

MA.

"For each Inquisitor in your army, you may also include a unit of 3-12 henchmen, chosen in any combination from those shown"
"This unit does not use up a force organisation slot."

"Inquisitorial Henchmen warbands are Troops choices in an army that includes Inquisitor Torquemada Coteaz,"
"and are not limited by the number of Inquisitors in your army"

Combine these rules and you get:
"This unit does not use up a force organisation slot."
"Inquisitorial Henchmen warbands are Troops choices in an army that includes Inquisitor Torquemada Coteaz,"

The rule stating that warbands are not limited supersedes the rule stating that they are limited. The two rules you have remaining are:

1. Does not use up FOC slot
2. Troops

The FOC rules state:
"Each grey-toned box indicates that you may make one choice from that section of the army list, while a dark-toned box indicates a compulsory selection"

Troops are compulsory selections. The definition of these words means that you are compelled to make a selection.

The act of including a Henchmen Warband in your army is making a selection. Note that as per the rules, this selection "does not use up a force organization slot".

Having made a selection, you have successfully satisfied 1 mandatory FOC selection.

A counter would be a Jokearo army I guess.
A horde or lascannons or what ever you need.

Again, I see where you're coming from.

My Interpratation of the FOC rules is that you must fill your mandatory slots with choices that fulfill them. i.e, Grey Knight Stike Squad.

However, if you don't share this opinion then that's your decision.

This is why no good can come of Matt Ward.

MA.

MaliceAngel wrote:Again, I see where you're coming from.

My Interpratation of the FOC rules is that you must fill your mandatory slots with choices that fulfill them. i.e, Grey Knight Stike Squad.

However, if you don't share this opinion then that's your decision.

This is why no good can come of Matt Ward.

MA.

It doesn't matter what your opinion is. The FOC rules do not say you need to fill anything, you just have to make selections.

You can house-rule this as much as you want, I can't stop you. But that doesn't change it from being a house rule.

The only rules failure Ward made here is confusing people like yourself, that choose to "interpret" things how they "feel" they "should" work. Instead of how they actually work. How I know they work, by the rules.


But again, house rule to your hearts content, I can't stop you

ph34r is right, malice. there's no 'either / or' scenario involved.

a troops selection may fulfill the troops requirement regardless of whether it counts towards the FOC limit. taking coteaz henchman groups ad infinitum doesn't make them not troops. it just means you can take as many as you want, and they count as troops. it expressly says they count as troops, so the argument that just because you can take as many as you want makes them not troops is logically absurd.

look at it like this.

you have a bowl and your wife tells you you can only buy as many oranges as fit in the bowl. you know the bowl only holds six oranges. next time you go shopping, your wife tells you you can buy as many oranges as you want within a $20 budget, as long as you put at least two oranges in the bowl. you buy 15 oranges. you only have oranges, so you figure you'll put as many as you can in the bowl and the remainder go in the fridge. you're trying to argue that because you've bought more oranges, the oranges you put in the bowl haven't filled it.

You could set a watch to the alarming regularity of this argument happening.

GW. FAQ. PLEASE.