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This is a completely figurative scenario, but it will happen as soon as I get these damnable parts all ordered and finally assembled nice and proper. I play SW and my friend plays GK (all new codex armies). The wolf tail talisman allows me to roll a D6 whenever the unit is "affected by an enemy psychic power" and if the D6 is a 5+ then "that power is nullified" (p 62 SW). Well, for the GK to activate their nemesis weapon (and for any force weapon for that matter) it counts as a psychic ability. When the instant death effect would occur do I get to roll the D6 in an attempt to save my space pups? I think (of course this may sound biased but my Tyranid friend agrees) that the unit is being affected by the nemesis (force weapon) psychic ability when the instant death effect would occur. My units would still take the damage and such but wouldn't fall over dead. What say you?

Your unit was never affected by the psychic power. The GK unit was affected by the Force Weapon psychic power, which made their attacks inflict instant death. So, you cannot roll for the talisman.

Any other interpretation gets ridiculous.

lol, well the nemesis effect is the insta death ;p I wouldn't say my conclusion was ridiculous, possibly reaching perhaps XD but not ridiculous.

If some paladin's tried to Holocaust you, or Purifiers tried to Cleansing Flame you it would work. Those are psychic abilities that target your troops. However, if the Strike Squad wants to throw out some Hammerhand or ID attacks they are using abilities that target themselves and provide boosts. To block them you are going to need a psychic hoodie.

They activate their nemesis force weapons. They aren't targeting your units, they're targeting their swords. Just like hammerhand is targeting their biceps, not your units. So no, no cheese hunting please.

It doesn't say the unit has to be the target of the psychic attack, just affected by it.

Null Zone doesn't target them, either, for example.

But Null Zone is still affecting them, activating Nemesis Force Weapons or Hammerhand doesn't affect the other models, it affects the Grey Knights, one making their attacks now count as instant death and the other increasing their S in an assault.

CrashCanuck wrote:But Null Zone is still affecting them, activating Nemesis Force Weapons or Hammerhand doesn't affect the other models, it affects the Grey Knights, one making their attacks now count as instant death and the other increasing their S in an assault.

Unfortunately, Instant Death and adding +1 S does affect the other models.

Here's the mental process I would use for the force weapon:

Check for Wolf Tail Talisman:

Q: Did the psychic power affect my models?

Premise 1) The psychic power caused all wounds dealt by a force weapon to inflict instant death.

Premise 2) My Wolf Lord suffered a wound from a force weapon.

Premise 3) My Wolf Lord suffered from instant death.

Conclusion: My Wolf Lord suffered from instant death, which was dealt by a force weapon, which was only able to do so due to a psychic power.

Answer: Yes, a psychic power affected my Wolf Lord, though the chain of cause and effect drawn above.

Yes, Wolf Tail Talisman is satisfied.

Alternatively, for the +1Str:

Check for Wolf Tail Talisman:

Q: Did the psychic power affect my models?

Premise 1) The psychic power caused all hits by a squad to be resolved at Str. 5.

Premise 2) Str. 5 wounds my Wolf Lord on 3s.

Premise 3) My Wolf Lord was wounded on 3s.

Conclusion: My Wolf Lord suffered wounds on 3s, because they were dealt by a model with Str. 5, which (in this case) was only due to a psychic power.

Answer: Yes, a psychic power affected my Wolf Lord, though the chain of cause and effect drawn above.

Yes, Wolf Tail Talisman is satisfied.

Unfortunately it is not the Psychic power affecting your models, its the )now buffed) weapons/GK's

for a Psychic power to affect your models it would have to have a direct effect at the time of casting to fulfill the circumstances.

Does it?

Dictionary wrote:Affect, verb. Have an effect on; make a difference to"

I'm pretty sure it

Dictionary wrote: makes a difference

to the Wolf Lord whether or not the weapons inflict instant death, right?

Which means that a psychic power causing them to inflict instant death

Dictionary wrote:makes a difference

to the Wolf Lord.

If we substitute out the Dictionary definition, above, we get:

"A psychic power, by causing the weapons to inflict instant death, affects the Wolf Lord.

6. Dictionary definitions of words are not always a reliable source of information for rules debates

From: Http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/253892.page

That said, to directly affect your unit, the GK would have to cast something that has an effect on the unit at the time of casting the Psychic power.

Active abilities are different from passive ones.

Fair enough, although I hope that lets me ignore the dictionary definition of "10" as the maximum strength of a model...

...after all, dictionary definitions are unreliable in rules debates, right?

Deathreaper wrote:That said, to directly affect your unit, the GK would have to cast something that has an effect on the unit at the time of casting the Psychic power.

Where is the word "directly" in the Wolf Tail Talisman rule?

Also, where are you getting this information?

DeathReaper wrote:Active abilities are different from passive ones.

I am not sure where you are going with this; sorry if I seem dense, but what does this have to do with the issue?

Because the enemy unit is not "affected by an enemy psychic power".

They are affected by the force weapons that have been modified by a Psychic power.

Slight, but important, difference.

DeathReaper wrote:Because the enemy unit is not "affected by an enemy psychic power".

They are affected by the force weapons that have been modified by a Psychic power.

Slight, but important, difference.

Except the Wolf Lord "being affected by Force Weapons modified by a psychic power" IS "being affected by a psychic power" provided that the modification does anything to the Wolf Lord. Let me phrase it this way:

A person is murdered with a gun wielded by Bob.

However, Bob did not murder them, as he merely modified the internal workings of the gun (i.e. returned the firing pin to rest position). It was the gun that murdered the person.

Was the person affected by Bob?

3. Never, ever bring real-world examples into a rules argument.
- The rules, while creating a very rough approximation of the real world, are an abstraction of a fantasy universe. Real world examples have no bearing on how the rules work. So quit it.

From: Http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/253892.page

That said, the Psychic power is not affecting them. the power is cast, and they are not affected.

The Psychic power affects the GK squad, not anyone else.

It was not an example, it was an analogy. Try again.
However, if you insist that even the analogies must be fictitious, then here's another:

A red alien squid is murdered with a rock thrown by a green alien cat.

However, the green alien cat did not murder the red alien squid, as it merely modified the spatial-temporal coordinates of the rock (i.e. threw it). It was the rock that murdered the red alien squid.

They ARE affected, because it affects them. Because, through its effects, the models are affected, then it affects them.

It also, incidentally, affects the GK squad, yes.

It does not affect them, it modifies the GK squad, Important, yet subtle difference.

If the unit is not "affected by an enemy psychic power" then the psychic power is cast without the Talisman being able to be used (which works like a psychic hood)

A Psychic power that affects them would be something like Smite from the SM Librarian power.

Unit1126PLL wrote:

CrashCanuck wrote:But Null Zone is still affecting them, activating Nemesis Force Weapons or Hammerhand doesn't affect the other models, it affects the Grey Knights, one making their attacks now count as instant death and the other increasing their S in an assault.

Unfortunately, Instant Death and adding +1 S does affect the other models.

Here's the mental process I would use for the force weapon:

Check for Wolf Tail Talisman:

Q: Did the psychic power affect my models?

Premise 1) The psychic power caused all wounds dealt by a force weapon to inflict instant death.

Premise 2) My Wolf Lord suffered a wound from a force weapon.

Premise 3) My Wolf Lord suffered from instant death.

Conclusion: My Wolf Lord suffered from instant death, which was dealt by a force weapon, which was only able to do so due to a psychic power.

Answer: Yes, a psychic power affected my Wolf Lord, though the chain of cause and effect drawn above.

Yes, Wolf Tail Talisman is satisfied.

Alternatively, for the +1Str:

Check for Wolf Tail Talisman:

Q: Did the psychic power affect my models?

Premise 1) The psychic power caused all hits by a squad to be resolved at Str. 5.

Premise 2) Str. 5 wounds my Wolf Lord on 3s.

Premise 3) My Wolf Lord was wounded on 3s.

Conclusion: My Wolf Lord suffered wounds on 3s, because they were dealt by a model with Str. 5, which (in this case) was only due to a psychic power.

Answer: Yes, a psychic power affected my Wolf Lord, though the chain of cause and effect drawn above.

Yes, Wolf Tail Talisman is satisfied.

And herein lies the problem.

You've identified that a unit gaining +1 Strength, for example form a psychic ability is technically 'affecting' the unit being hit by the S5 attacks. But using that same logic, you can always wind every single power back to having some sort of affect on the unit.

Say the +1 Strength is used *not* to attack the IC with the Wolf Tail Talisman, but to attack his unit. But in the process of killing those models in close combat you're able to force a break test on the unit which now includes the IC with the Wolf Tail Talisman. So now he has been 'affected' by the +1 Strength.

Or say Mephiston uses the wings of Sanguinius to move 12" in the movement phase which allows him to assault the model with the Wolf Tail Talisman. Clearly he's been affected by the Wings of Sanguinius as Mephiston would not have been able to assault him otherwise.


So basically, once you take any kind of direct effect out of the picture you have to resort to the idea that a model with a Wolf Tail Talisman is somehow indirectly affected by every single enemy psychic power used in the game, and therefore gets to test against all of them.

Now obviously this is a devil's advocate set of absurd examples, but you have to recognize and understand that there literally is no distinct line to draw in the sand by the rules, and that no matter where you draw the line you're making some sort of distinction that doesn't actually exist.


The Wolf Tail Talisman should never have been allowed to remain in the codex as-is. GW needs to STOP using this ridiculously vague 'affected' terminology when it comes to anti-psychic defense because it is really, really ambiguous when you stop and think about it.

DeathReaper wrote:It does not affect them, it modifies the GK squad, Important, yet subtle difference.

If the unit is not "affected by an enemy psychic power" then the psychic power is cast without the Talisman being able to be used (which works like a psychic hood)

A Psychic power that affects them would be something like Smite from the SM Librarian power.

I agree with this.As has been mentioned,the activation of the NFW or Hammerhand are passive in respect to using the Talisman to try to stop them.Nobody likes to lose an HQ to ID,but as the OP said,it is a bit of a reach to see if it could be used to cancel the examples here.

yakface wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:

CrashCanuck wrote:But Null Zone is still affecting them, activating Nemesis Force Weapons or Hammerhand doesn't affect the other models, it affects the Grey Knights, one making their attacks now count as instant death and the other increasing their S in an assault.

Unfortunately, Instant Death and adding +1 S does affect the other models.

Here's the mental process I would use for the force weapon:

Check for Wolf Tail Talisman:

Q: Did the psychic power affect my models?

Premise 1) The psychic power caused all wounds dealt by a force weapon to inflict instant death.

Premise 2) My Wolf Lord suffered a wound from a force weapon.

Premise 3) My Wolf Lord suffered from instant death.

Conclusion: My Wolf Lord suffered from instant death, which was dealt by a force weapon, which was only able to do so due to a psychic power.

Answer: Yes, a psychic power affected my Wolf Lord, though the chain of cause and effect drawn above.

Yes, Wolf Tail Talisman is satisfied.

Alternatively, for the +1Str:

Check for Wolf Tail Talisman:

Q: Did the psychic power affect my models?

Premise 1) The psychic power caused all hits by a squad to be resolved at Str. 5.

Premise 2) Str. 5 wounds my Wolf Lord on 3s.

Premise 3) My Wolf Lord was wounded on 3s.

Conclusion: My Wolf Lord suffered wounds on 3s, because they were dealt by a model with Str. 5, which (in this case) was only due to a psychic power.

Answer: Yes, a psychic power affected my Wolf Lord, though the chain of cause and effect drawn above.

Yes, Wolf Tail Talisman is satisfied.

And herein lies the problem.

You've identified that a unit gaining +1 Strength, for example form a psychic ability is technically 'affecting' the unit being hit by the S5 attacks. But using that same logic, you can always wind every single power back to having some sort of affect on the unit.

Say the +1 Strength is used *not* to attack the IC with the Wolf Tail Talisman, but to attack his unit. But in the process of killing those models in close combat you're able to force a break test on the unit which now includes the IC with the Wolf Tail Talisman. So now he has been 'affected' by the +1 Strength.

Or say Mephiston uses the wings of Sanguinius to move 12" in the movement phase which allows him to assault the model with the Wolf Tail Talisman. Clearly he's been affected by the Wings of Sanguinius as Mephiston would not have been able to assault him otherwise.


So basically, once you take any kind of direct effect out of the picture you have to resort to the idea that a model with a Wolf Tail Talisman is somehow indirectly affected by every single enemy psychic power used in the game, and therefore gets to test against all of them.

Now obviously this is a devil's advocate set of absurd examples, but you have to recognize and understand that there literally is no distinct line to draw in the sand by the rules, and that no matter where you draw the line you're making some sort of distinction that doesn't actually exist.


The Wolf Tail Talisman should never have been allowed to remain in the codex as-is. GW needs to STOP using this ridiculously vague 'affected' terminology when it comes to anti-psychic defense because it is really, really ambiguous when you stop and think about it.

I agree with you, and yes. RAW is a bitch. Two final points:

1) I don't play Space Wolves.

2) I enjoy being the devil's advocate.

One major, overall point:

I do threads like this because, partly, I want to show all the people that say "RAW IS GOD" that no, in fact, it isn't.

EDIT: ALSO, feel free to accept this as a concession. I don't think any sane person can honestly believe what I was saying, after all. I was just taking RAW to the logical conclusion.

Except you werent taking RAW. You were assuming a logical inference chain.

Transitive property doesn't apply in 40k. As such, with Force Weapons affecting themselves by modifying their attacks' effects, do not affect the WTT, the attacks do, and the attacks aren't a psychic power.

RAW Force Weapons Page 50 BRB
Force weapons are targeted against specific models.

I dont have a GK codex but normal force weapons would be effected.

Quick note for the wolf tail talisman it does protect the entire unit of whoever is wearing the talisman, I'm assuming if I were to quote the book word for word that would be stepping over a line >.< but I will if someone says it's all good ;p I would also like to point out that I'm not the most experienced 40k player but I've wargamed before. I viewed the nemesis ability as an "enchantment." Basically, I saw the way it worked as when they activated the nemesis ability it would delay the ability to cause instant death. Since, it was "stored" in the weapon the psychic ability didn't actually trigger until it hit my unit which means the blade chose the target rather than the caster using a PSA. Actually is one of the conditions for a force weapon insta death check that the weapon has to hit and wound before they roll? If that is one of the conditions I would say that the talisman comes into affect since the power is being channeled through the blade into my unit. The force weapon check must be made whilst the blade is wounding the unit rather than buffing the force weapon wielder. I can't quote the GK book so I'm not sure whether the nemesis buff is a "check after wound" or "next wound causes insta death," but my premise remains the same.

Norserune wrote:lol, well the nemesis effect is the insta death ;p I wouldn't say my conclusion was ridiculous, possibly reaching perhaps XD but not ridiculous.

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that your question was ridiculous. Just that the outcome of deciding that the Talisman affects a power like GK's Force Weapons is ridiculous. You can see some of that above. Why? Because you can argue that just about any psychic power at all affects the model somehow.

Example:
Farseer casts Guide on his unit. Unit shoots at the model with Talisman, and uses guide to re-roll 4 missed hits. Guide "affected" the unit, and since Talisman 'nullifies' it, the re-rolls would be ignored.
Farseer casts Fortune on his unit. Unit with the Talisman has to decide whether or not to shoot at the Fortuned unit, and this decision "affects" the unit. Unit with the Talisman can try to nullify the power as soon as he says "HMM I THINK I MAY WANT TO SHOOT AT THAT FORTURED UNIT OVER THERE...".
Librarian casts Null Zone. Unit with Talisman now has altered saves, and is "affected" by the power - but only if the unit has invulnerable saves, and only when the psychic power actually makes you re-roll them! Unit with the Talisman can try to nullify the power as soon as it is forced to re-roll any invulnerable saves. (Note: This example is ridiculous because of the timing of when the power would be nullified)

Exergy wrote:RAW Force Weapons Page 50 BRB
Force weapons are targeted against specific models.

I dont have a GK codex but normal force weapons would be effected.

GK Force Weapons aren't targeted against specific models due to the altered wording in the Nemesis Force Weapons info box. You roll at the same time and everything, but the GK force weapon says "If the test is passed, all wounds caused by the unit's Nemesis force weapons that phase inflict Instant Death". The 'normal' Force Weapons say "The psyker may then take a Psychic test to use the weapon's power against any one opponent that suffered an unsaved wound by the weapon in that player turn. The normal rules for using psychic powers apply"

Summary:
Normal force weapons are a psychic power that targets a single enemy model
GK force weapons are a psychic power that targets the GK unit

--

Exposition:

Psychic defenses need to come in one of two flavors:
General universal defenses - Runes of Warding, Shadows in the Warp, Psychic Hood, etc. Rule is used on any power cast within a certain range of the model with the psychic defense.
Selfish defenses - The Aegis, Wolf Tail Talisman, etc. Apply only to powers that target the model with the psychic defense. Some psychic defenses like this need to specify that the "unit is unaffected by that power" rather than using something subjective like "nullify"

This goes hand-in-hand with rewording the psychic powers using errata or whatever:
Shooting attacksAutomatically target enemy units for normal shooting attacks (for example, Vortex of Doom). Others, however, need to be re-worded so that it specifies that it targets specific models. For example, JotWW - targets all models touched by the line - and Null Zone - targets all enemy models within 24".
Non-shooting attacksNeeds to specify which models are targeted. For example, Guide - targets the friendly squad and any currently-attached independent characters (though this would change the way it works slightly, see Eldar FAQ) - GK Force Weapons - Targets the GK squad and all enemy models in combat with the GK squad (this avoids any annoying things like not being able to cancel a power because it was used during a higher initiative step)

Exergy wrote:RAW Force Weapons Page 50 BRB
Force weapons are targeted against specific models.

I dont have a GK codex but normal force weapons would be effected.

GK Force weapons are different, the codex states that if you pass the psychic test to activate them, they inflict instant death.

CrashCanuck wrote:

Exergy wrote:RAW Force Weapons Page 50 BRB
Force weapons are targeted against specific models.

I dont have a GK codex but normal force weapons would be effected.

GK Force weapons are different, the codex states that if you pass the psychic test to activate them, they inflict instant death.

That may be, I conceed that. But people here are talking about NFW and regular force weapons in the same breath and the rules for normal force weapons in the BRB would be subject to wolf talisman

So then wolf tail talisman vs grey knight nemesis weapon goes to the nemesis weapon, but the force weapon question hasn't been thrown aside yet. So would a unit with a wolf tail talisman get a roll to nullify the insta death caused by a force weapon then?

Norserune wrote:So then wolf tail talisman vs grey knight nemesis weapon goes to the nemesis weapon, but the force weapon question hasn't been thrown aside yet. So would a unit with a wolf tail talisman get a roll to nullify the insta death caused by a force weapon then?

a normal force weapon, definitly.

One way to look at Hammerhand is the following;

Hammerhand does not make the target weaker, it makes the GK stronger.

So it doesn't make the target easier to wound, it makes the GK wound easier.

Looking at NFW,

NFW does not make the target easier to ID, it makes the GK unit able to deal ID.