Dreadknight and Personal Teleporter / Jump Infantry?

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**Xarian**

Hello, please close this and point me to the appropriate thread if this has already been covered.

This is not about teleport shunt.

Is a Dreadknight with a Personal Teleporter 'Jump Infantry' and no longer 'Monstrous Creature'? Is it even possible to be both - since they are both separate unit types? (p. 28 GK codex, p. 51-52 main rulebook). My confusion comes from the wording - in the GK codex, "Units with personal teleporters are Jump Infantry". In the Tyranid codex, comparing a Hive Tyrant with Wings, "Models equipped with wings move in the same way as Jump Infantry".

**Mannahnin**

Yes, there's been at least one massive thread on it.

Nothing in the rules explicitly forbids a unit from being two different types.

If you do play that they stop being MCs, then they could embark on an SR, but no longer ignore saves, no longer get 2d6 armor pen, no longer can shoot two guns, etc.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/354201.page
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/362035.page

**AlmightyWalrus**

Mannahnin wrote:Yes, there's been at least one massive thread on it.

Nothing in the rules explicitly forbids a unit from being two different types.

If you do play that they stop being MCs, then they could embark on an SR, but no longer ignore saves, no longer get 2d6 armor pen, no longer can shoot two guns, etc.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/354201.page
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/362035.page

DCCWs being power weapons isn't tied to the wielder being a walker though, so they'd still work.

**Jaon**

Rules wise the DK cannot even USE the DCCWs, but lets not get into that.

**don_mondo**

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
DCCWs being power weapons isn't tied to the wielder being a walker though, so they'd still work.

As power weapons, but only at regular strength, no doubling as that part is tied to the wielder being a walker.

**Kommissar Kel**

Actually as NFW; no doubling S(the DF is a NFW).

**AlmightyWalrus**

Jaon wrote:Rules wise the DK cannot even USE the DCCWs, but lets not get into that.

Yes, let's get into that. The only part of DCCWs that non-walkers can't use is the double strength part. Everything else works perfectly fine.

**tgf**

GW will not put this into the FAQ just to keep us divided lol.

**Brother Ramses**

tgf wrote:GW will not put this into the FAQ just to keep us divided lol.

They won't put it into a FAQ because they think that,

"Units with personal teleporters are Jump Infantry."

Is more then clear enough.

**nosferatu1001**

Yes, it means they are ji.

They are also mc

you were unable to prove they weren't in the last thread, either

**Brother Ramses**

You were not able to point to a single rule in the BRB that allowed dual unit types to exist in Warhammer 40k.

I was able to point out specific pages in the BRB that listed all the unit types in the world of Warhammer 40k of which MC/JI was not included.

**kirsanth**

It was not FAQ'd for the previous codex's Tyranid Hive Tyrant. It was both in this edition.

**nosferatu1001**

BR - you were unable to find a need from both.

Your argument still fails

**Brother Ramses**

Being able to point out that the designers did not include unit type JI/MC is not failing at all. The unit types of Warhammer 40k are clearly defined in the BRB. There is not provision for JI/MC. Despite you being able to prove that it would not cause a problem by your standard, you are never given the permission to create said unit type in the first place and apply whatever standard of justification you have created to said false unit type.

Continuing to just arbitrarily make up a unit type not in the Warhammer 40k is failing at playing by the rules set forth by the designers of the game.

**nosferatu1001**

Why are you making stuff up?

Reread what I posted above, slightly more carefully this time. note the lack of combined appeared

You ar failing to following the clear directive given by the rules for the dk and the rules for the teleporter,and are thus cheating

**Brother Ramses**

I didn't have to prove that the couldn't be both at the same time. I didn't have to prove that something couldn't be both unit type JI and unit type MC. The burden of proof was on you to show where the BRB allows a model to be unit type JI and unit type MC.

The concept that you propose that it does not cause a rules conflict and is therefore allowed is not a valid premise as you do not have permission in the first place to propose that a model is unit type JI and unit type MC.

The premise that "it doesn't say you can't so you can" is not a valid argument.

It is a shock that,

"Units with personal teleporters are Jump Infantry."

Suddenly becomes "in addition" in your mind when that is nowhere even hinted at in the rule.

I find it even laughable that I have said that the FAQ will fall along the lines of a demon prince wings in that a dreadknight with a personal teleporter will move as Jump Infantry if not an outright errata. However you insist on a model existing as two different unit types to get the exact same result, despite it not being allowed.

When is a MC also like JI? When it is allowed to move as JI. Not because it exists in some alternate rule set created by you that allows models to have two different unit types.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
And arguing with someone that just continues to say,

"the BRB does not say you can't have a model with two different unit types so I can"

or

"The rule doesn't say that you lose MC status so you keep it and become both MC and JI"

while having no basis in the actual rules gets pretty tedious. I am out on this one.

**nosferatu1001**

Permission is gained by the teleporter rules, actually.

Nothing states he loses MC. Prove it, please.

As was said : your argument is flawed, yet you will not accept it. again

**kirsanth**

Brother Ramses wrote:The burden of proof was on you to show where the BRB allows a model to be unit type JI and unit type MC.

Not really, as I read it..

The rules say it is MC.
The rules for this item say it is JI.

No rule ever says it stops being MC, unless you can find one.

**Brother Ramses**

kirsanth wrote:
Brother Ramses wrote:The burden of proof was on you to show where the BRB allows a model to be unit type JI and unit type MC.
Not really, as I read it..

The rules say it is MC.
The rules for this item say it is JI.

No rule ever says it stops being MC, unless you can find one.

Actually the rules say,

A dreadknight is unit type MC.

A dreadknight with a personal teleporter is unit type JI.

A dreadknight =/= a dreadknight with a personal teleporter.

That is where your logic is flawed.

Just like the following;

A captain is unit type Infantry.

A capatin with a bike is unit type Bikes

A captain =/= a captain with a bike.

or

A Wolf Lord is unit type Infantry.

A Wolf Lord with a Thunderwolf mount is unit type Cavalry.

A Wolf Lord =/= a Wolf Lord with a thunderwolf mount.

**kirsanth**

And you logic is flawed in asserting that a dreadknight with a personal teleporter is not a dreadknight.

**tgf**

he does have a point.

It does not say is unit type JI in addition to its other unit types.

It does not say gains additional unit type JI.

My guess is it will probably be errataed to moves like JI for DK or is JI in addition to.

**Xarian**

Yes, this is where my confusion was coming from.

A Farseer is Infantry. If he takes a Jetbike, he is a Jetbike (subtype of Bike) and is no longer Infantry - he is not affected by effects that only target Infantry, for example.

I think that it's a bit odd that the Dreadknight would stop being a monstrous creature simply because he took a teleporter, but by RAW and using similar wording of models in similar situations (models which take wargear that changes their unit type), it looks like he's not a MC.

I'd never ask my opponent to treat his Dreadknight like Jump Infantry for anything other than movement purposes (or maybe targeting if there was some specific ability that affected Jump Infantry).

Regardless of all of this, however, the two links that were posted early on in the thread have covered all of this and more, and the discussion is just re-hashing points that were covered in other threads.

**Brother Ramses**

Then by all means explain how they are the same?

Per the RAW,

A dreadknight is a Monstrous Creature.

It has movement rules specific to Monstrous Creatures.

It has shooting rules specific to Monstrous Creatures.

It has rules for cover specific to Monstrous Creatures.

It has assault rules specific to Monstrous Creatures.

Per the RAW,

A dreadknight with a personal teleporter is Jump Infantry.

It has movement rules specific to Jump Infantry.

It has shooting rules specific to Jump Infantry.

It has rules for cover specific to Jump Infantry.

It has assault rules specific to Jump Infantry.

And before you want to jump on the fact that the rules are not specific to the unit type, I mean that the rules for Jump Infantry or MC in the unit type section are specific in telling you how to complete those actions.

So, as I said, please show me how a dreadknight = to a dreadknight with a personal teleporter.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

tgf wrote:he does have a point.

It does not say is unit type JI in addition to its other unit types.

It does not say gains additional unit type JI.

My guess is it will probably be errataed to moves like JI for DK or is JI in addition to.

I think that since the dreadknight is supposed to be the technological equivalent of a demon prince that when given a personal teleporter it will move as Jump Infantry to keep up with a demon prince that has wings, that also moves as Jump Infantry.

However, I completely discount the rubbish that a dreadknight with a personal teleporter is two different units types because it never tells you to stop being a MC despite telling you that you are JI.

**Jidmah**

You lost the argument before, and are unwilling to bend because you want to be right very hard. You might even be trolling?

Brother Ramses wrote:Then by all means explain how they are the same?

Per the RAW,

A dreadknight is a Monstrous Creature.

It has movement rules specific to Monstrous Creatures.
WRONG - they dont!

It has shooting rules specific to Monstrous Creatures.

It has rules for cover specific to Monstrous Creatures.

It has assault rules specific to Monstrous Creatures.

Per the RAW,

A dreadknight with a personal teleporter is Jump Infantry.

It has movement rules specific to Jump Infantry.

It has shooting rules specific to Jump Infantry.
WRONG - they dont!

It has rules for cover specific to Jump Infantry.
WRONG - they dont!

It has assault rules specific to Jump Infantry.
WRONG - they dont!

Besides of you missusing the term "RAW", you also claim both types have rules they share with infantry to be specific for them. This is wrong. The exact same section also tells us that the rules stated there overwrite any infantry rules.
No a single one of those rules conflicts.

And before you want to jump on the fact that the rules are not specific to the unit type, I mean that the rules for Jump Infantry or MC in the unit type section are specific in telling you how to complete those actions.

Which would be the opposite of specific. Wrong again. Stating the flaw of your argumentation does not make it go away. Infantry rules are supposed to be replaced, as stated under "different unit types".

So, as I said, please show me how a dreadknight = to a dreadknight with a personal teleporter.

There is no "dreadknight with a personal teleporter" model, rules, entry, points cost, statline or anything. It's a dreadknight with certain wargear. "dreadknight with a personal teleporter" is an imaginary construct you created because you fail concede your point.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

tgf wrote:he does have a point.

It does not say is unit type JI in addition to its other unit types.

It does not say gains additional unit type JI.

My guess is it will probably be errataed to moves like JI for DK or is JI in addition to.

I think that since the dreadknight is supposed to be the technological equivalent of a demon prince that when given a personal teleporter it will move as Jump Infantry to keep up with a demon prince that has wings, that also moves as Jump Infantry.

However, I completely discount the rubbish that a dreadknight with a personal teleporter is two different units types because it never tells you to stop being a MC despite telling you that you are JI.

A dreadknight as JI and MC works exactly like a demon prince with wings, with the exception of two psychic powers in the entire game. You discounting a perfectly logical and working rules construct as rubbish without anything to base your argument on is either philosophical or trolling. Both has no room in tabletop gaming.

**ChrisCP**

Brother Ramses wrote:Then by all means explain how they are the same?

Per the RAW,

A dreadknight is a Monstrous Creature.

It has movement rules specific to Monstrous Creatures.

It has shooting rules specific to Monstrous Creatures.

It has rules for cover specific to Monstrous Creatures.

It has assault rules specific to Monstrous Creatures.

Per the RAW,

A dreadknight with a personal teleporter is Jump Infantry.

It has movement rules specific to Jump Infantry.

It has shooting rules specific to Jump Infantry.

It has rules for cover specific to Jump Infantry.

It has assault rules specific to Jump Infantry.

And before you want to jump on the fact that the rules are not specific to the unit type, I mean that the rules for Jump Infantry or MC in the unit type section are specific in telling you how to complete those actions.

So, as I said, please show me how a dreadknight = to a dreadknight with a personal teleporter.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

tgf wrote:he does have a point.

It does not say is unit type JI in addition to its other unit types.

It does not say gains additional unit type JI.

My guess is it will probably be errataed to moves like JI for DK or is JI in addition to.

I think that since the dreadknight is supposed to be the technological equivalent of a demon prince that when given a personal teleporter it will move as Jump Infantry to keep up with a demon prince that has wings, that also moves as Jump Infantry.

However, I completely discount the rubbish that a dreadknight with a personal teleporter is two different units types because it never tells you to stop being a MC despite telling you that you are JI.

Actually, someone in one of the past threads delineated the unit with two types issue quite well, showing how through the system of permissions and exclusions that a unit with two types is more than happy to exist. Irrc correctly the example, which used MC and JI, could have extended to Bike/infantry etc.

However, I completely discount the rubbish that "is jump infantry" is the same as "unit type becomes JI" or "loses it's unit type and is JI". Your repeated insistence that it loses a unit type with no rules text to back it up is faintly ludicrous when we are showing in addition to the failings of your argument that the only possible further argument that it 'doesn't work' within the rules is also invalid. GW may not have intended this situation, but unless there is something telling us it loses a type or its unit type becomes something different... Then no, is JI, is MC, no conflict.

**yperihitikos**

It is true that the rules don't say that the rules from an item replace the previous ones. As a result the model with a wargear has still its previous rules in effect. Total madness!

And just because the rulebook doesn't describe what happens when these two rules conflict the game comes to a deadend. A monstrous creature rolls 2D6 armour penetration rolls. A jump infantry 1D6. So, you either don't assault vehicles or you assault and the game ends.

The game works and can be played only when you agree that the rules from a wargear replaces its previous rules. Otherwise, when yor dreadknight with a teleporter moves more than 6", shoots or assaults, the game ends because the rules for unit types are in conflict and the game cannot continue.

On the other hand, you can open the book and read the rule for teleporters. The rule ignores any previous unit type. It states that if you equip the model with a teleporter it is jump infantry. If I see your model with a teleporter I will open your codex, I will read that you added a teleporter.and I will search in the codex what does the teleporter. And I will read that it does your model jump infantry. As a result if you don't want to be jump infantry don't equip it. It is optional for a reason!

**Jidmah**

yperihitikos wrote:It is true that the rules don't say that the rules from an item replace the previous ones. As a result the model with a wargear has still its previous rules in effect. Total madness!

And just because the rulebook doesn't describe what happens when these two rules conflict the game comes to a deadend. A monstrous creature rolls 2D6 armour penetration rolls. A jump infantry 1D6. So, you either don't assault vehicles or you assault and the game ends.

The game works and can be played only when you agree that the rules from a wargear replaces its previous rules. Otherwise, when yor dreadknight with a teleporter moves more than 6", shoots or assaults, the game ends because the rules for unit types are in conflict and the game cannot continue.

On the other hand, you can open the book and read the rule for teleporters. The rule ignores any previous unit type. It states that if you equip the model with a teleporter it is jump infantry. If I see your model with a teleporter I will open your codex, I will read that you added a teleporter.and I will search in the codex what does the teleporter. And I will read that it does your model jump infantry. As a result if you don't want to be jump infantry don't equip it. It is optional for a reason!

This is actually wrong. The BRB does describe what happens when two rules conflict, you replace the less specific(infantry rules). There is even a box in that exact section about it. Neither type has any conflicting rules that are not infantry rules. The post Chris was referring to was probably mine, quoted bellow:

Jidmah wrote:I still haven't seen any valid argument against dual-type non-vehicles. We are in a moving in a permissive rules-set, so specific beats less specific and forbiddance beats permission. Stating something "is jump infantry" does not tell you to replace the original type. As you do not need permission to not change the type, the permissive rules would simply add the second one.

Lets go to the much quoted infantry bikes.
- Bikes has permission to move up to 12". Infantry has permission to move up to 6". So bike-infantry has permission to move up to 12", as there is no rule preventing infantry from moving any further by different means(embarked on transports or summoning for example).

- Bikes are not slowed by difficult terrain and treat difficult terrain as dangerous. Infantry are slowed by difficult terrain. Nothing prevents Infantry from treating dangerous as difficult. Infantry moves 2d6. Bikes are forbidden to be slowed. So an Infantry-Bike would move as a regular bike would.

- Bikes fall back 3d6 rather than 2d6, so special rule beats less special rule by replacing it. Bike-infantry would fall back 3d6.

- Bike may not enter buildings. Infantry may climb buildings. Frobiddance beats permission, no bike-infantry on upper floors.

- Only infantry models may enter transports, bike-infantry is not only infantry, so it may not enter transports.

- Relentless and Turbo-Boost work the same on bikes as they do for infantry, so no problems here.

To conclude: As all bike rules are all either permissive or restrictive, so a bike-infantry model would behave exactly the same as a bike.

So back to the Jumping Dreadknight:
- MCs have "move through cover" and "relentless". Nothings prevents JI from gaining those USR.

- JI have permission to move as infantry, MC have permission to move as infantry. JI have permission to move up to 12" with dangerous terrain tests when landing. A JI-MC would have permission to use the jump-pack as well, as they are not disallowed using different moves than the normal one.

- JI may end their jump move on top of impassible terrain. No specific rule for MCs, specific beats non-specific.

- JI falls back 3d6, MCs have no special "fall back!"-rule. Specific beats non-specific.

- MCs have permission to fire two weapons. JI have permission to fire one weapon. JI-MCs have permission to fire two weapons.

- MCs may not go to ground, JI may. Forbiddance beats permission, so JI-MCs may not go tho ground.

- MCs may not claim cover as Infantry does, but must be 50% obscured, JI claims cover as infantry does. Forbiddance beats permission, so vehicle cover rules for JI-MC.

- MCs close combat attacks resolved as power weapons, JI attacks are not resolved in a special way. Specific beats non-specific.

- MCs roll an additional d6 for armor penetration. JI roll 1d6 for armor penetration. Nothing prevents JI from gaining an additional die for penetration, so 2d6+S for JI-MCs.

- Only jump infantry and infantry may be transported by a storm raven. As a JI-MC is not only jump infantry or infantry, it may not enter a storm raven.

- JI may arrive via deep strike rules, MCs have no special rule concerning this. Specific beats non-specific.

So, to our total surprise, it works exactly like a daemon prince moving as jump infantry, except for some special rules explicitly affecting models if they are jump infantry.

All of this is RAW, see BRB pages 51ff, especially the grey box on pg. 52.

**yperihitikos**

The rulebook says that "In any given situation during a battle, if the codex doesn't say any different follow the rules for the appropriate unit type..."
In our problem, the codex does say something different. It says that you are jump infantry. Jump infantry says "follows" and "like" infantry in its rules. It doesn't say it "counts" as or "is" infantry. It is still jump infantry and it uses/"follows" rules from other pages of the rulebook.

During the battle you would have to follow both unit type advantages and disadvantages. In an assault against vehicles you cannot make one roll with 1D6 and 2D6 dices at the same time. It has to be one dice or two dices for the roll.This is a conflict. And the conflict that you made trying to bring something that is not in the book has the result I mentioned before.

**Jidmah**

yperihitikos wrote:During the battle you would have to follow both unit type advantages and disadvantages. In an assault against vehicles you cannot make one roll with 1D6 and 2D6 dices at the same time. It has to be one dice or two dices for the roll.This is a conflict. And the conflict that you made trying to bring something that is not in the book has the result I mentioned before.

I agree to the principle(my entire quoted post does), but you example is wrong. The rules say MC roll an additional dice to penetrate, not 2D6(only the clarification mentiones 2D6), which would not conflict with JI, as they are perfectly fine rolling extra D6, for example from Might of Titan.

**wallacethe5**

Jidmah wrote:
yperihitikos wrote:It is true that the rules don't say that the rules from an item replace the previous ones. As a result the model with a wargear has still its previous rules in effect. Total madness!

And just because the rulebook doesn't describe what happens when these two rules conflict the game comes to a deadend. A monstrous creature rolls 2D6 armour penetration rolls. A jump infantry 1D6. So, you either don't assault vehicles or you assault and the game ends.

The game works and can be played only when you agree that the rules from a wargear replaces its previous rules. Otherwise, when yor dreadknight with a teleporter moves more than 6", shoots or assaults, the game ends because the rules for unit types are in conflict and the game cannot continue.

On the other hand, you can open the book and read the rule for teleporters. The rule ignores any previous unit type. It states that if you equip the model with a teleporter it is jump infantry. If I see your model with a teleporter I will open your codex, I will read that you added a teleporter.and I will search in the codex what does the teleporter. And I will read that it does your model jump infantry. As a result if you don't want to be jump infantry don't equip it. It is optional for a reason!

This is actually wrong. The BRB does describe what happens when two rules conflict, you replace the less specific(infantry rules). There is even a box in that exact section about it. Neither type has any conflicting rules that are not infantry rules. The post Chris was referring to was probably mine, quoted bellow:

Jidmah wrote:I still haven't seen any valid argument against dual-type non-vehicles. We are in a moving in a permissive rules-set, so specific beats less specific and forbiddance beats permission. Stating something "is jump infantry" does not tell you to replace the original type. As you do not need permission to not change the type, the permissive rules would simply add the second one.

Lets go to the much quoted infantry bikes.
- Bikes has permission to move up to 12". Infantry has permission to move up to 6". So bike-infantry has permission to move up to 12", as there is no rule preventing infantry from moving any further by different means(embarked on transports or summoning for example).

- Bikes are not slowed by difficult terrain and treat difficult terrain as dangerous. Infantry are slowed by difficult terrain. Nothing prevents Infantry from treating dangerous as difficult. Infantry moves 2d6. Bikes are forbidden to be slowed. So an Infantry-Bike would move as a regular bike would.

- Bikes fall back 3d6 rather than 2d6, so special rule beats less special rule by replacing it. Bike-infantry would fall back 3d6.

- Bike may not enter buildings. Infantry may climb buildings. Frobiddance beats permission, no bike-infantry on upper floors.

- Only infantry models may enter transports, bike-infantry is not only infantry, so it may not enter transports.

- Relentless and Turbo-Boost work the same on bikes as they do for infantry, so no problems here.

To conclude: As all bike rules are all either permissive or restrictive, so a bike-infantry model would behave exactly the same as a bike.

So back to the Jumping Dreadknight:
- MCs have "move through cover" and "relentless". Nothings prevents JI from gaining those USR.

- JI have permission to move as infantry, MC have permission to move as infantry. JI have permission to move up to 12" with dangerous terrain tests when landing. A JI-MC would have permission to use the jump-pack as well, as they are not disallowed using different moves than the normal one.

- JI may end their jump move on top of impassible terrain. No specific rule for MCs, specific beats non-specific.

- JI falls back 3d6, MCs have no special "fall back!"-rule. Specific beats non-specific.

- MCs have permission to fire two weapons. JI have permission to fire one weapon. JI-MCs have permission to fire two weapons.

- MCs may not go to ground, JI may. Forbiddance beats permission, so JI-MCs may not go tho ground.

- MCs may not claim cover as Infantry does, but must be 50% obscured, JI claims cover as infantry does. Forbiddance beats permission, so vehicle cover rules for JI-MC.

- MCs close combat attacks resolved as power weapons, JI attacks are not resolved in a special way. Specific beats non-specific.

- MCs roll an additional d6 for armor penetration. JI roll 1d6 for armor penetration. Nothing prevents JI from gaining an additional die for penetration, so 2d6+S for JI-MCs.

- Only jump infantry and infantry may be transported by a storm raven. As a JI-MC is not only jump infantry or infantry, it may not enter a storm raven.

- JI may arrive via deep strike rules, MCs have no special rule concerning this. Specific beats non-specific.

So, to our total surprise, it works exactly like a daemon prince moving as jump infantry, except for some special rules explicitly affecting models if they are jump infantry.

All of this is RAW, see BRB pages 51ff, especially the grey box on pg. 52.

Brother Remus, this makes more sense than what you are spouting. You are too close minded on this issue which you fail to take into account what those unit types actually does by understanding it in depth. If you do comparison of unit types and see what each specifications could be done and if you compare them as Jidmah, than people may be able to support your arguement. How ever, sad to say, your arguement is flawed by not being flexible enough. It just says you want the rules to be as you said it is by interpreting the rulebook explicitly to your crass argumentative advantage.