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Made in us
Blessed Living Saint




On the Internet

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
It's amazing how people are holding up the app as some form of holy grail of rules. It's not even close to BS, and that's a free app done by half the staff on their time off!

One is a first party product, the other is third party and is also inaccurate at times. But let's not making this about slagging on the app.

Honestly all tanks are overcosted, but the Immolator is one of the worst in the book. We pay too much for what is supposed to be durable platform across the book, but adding a transport surcharge on top only makes it worse.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Rhino is 80 points, has 10 person transport capacity, same statline. Immolator has 4 less transport, gets 40 points more guns even if you weigh the HB and flamers at 15 points each rather than the 10 they cost on infantry (and subtract for missing the storm bolter), yet costs 45 more points. Doesn't make any sense - it's paying 5 more points than it should even if it had a 10 man transport capacity, even with the vehicle tax.
   
Made in us
Blessed Living Saint




On the Internet

yukishiro1 wrote:
Rhino is 80 points, has 10 person transport capacity, same statline. Immolator has 4 less transport, gets 40 points more guns even if you weigh the HB and flamers at 15 points each rather than the 10 they cost on infantry (and subtract for missing the storm bolter), yet costs 45 more points. Doesn't make any sense - it's paying 5 more points than it should even if it had a 10 man transport capacity, even with the vehicle tax.

Yeah, it's a bit of a mess. I think GW is trying to put a surcharge onto platforms that have heavy weapons and transport capacity (much like how they over charge for the Land Raider) which would make sense if it didn't come with a trade off of being forced to fit less in side already. 10-15 points over the Rhino would have been fine. 20 tops.
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




 ClockworkZion wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
Rhino is 80 points, has 10 person transport capacity, same statline. Immolator has 4 less transport, gets 40 points more guns even if you weigh the HB and flamers at 15 points each rather than the 10 they cost on infantry (and subtract for missing the storm bolter), yet costs 45 more points. Doesn't make any sense - it's paying 5 more points than it should even if it had a 10 man transport capacity, even with the vehicle tax.

Yeah, it's a bit of a mess. I think GW is trying to put a surcharge onto platforms that have heavy weapons and transport capacity (much like how they over charge for the Land Raider) which would make sense if it didn't come with a trade off of being forced to fit less in side already. 10-15 points over the Rhino would have been fine. 20 tops.


Even then, that still puts the MM version at 140 which is just too high. The baseline chassis is worse than a rhino, so it should be worth less. Then add the heavy bolter and subtract the stormbolter and the chassis should end up being 85 at the max with the MM version clocking in at 125.

2500pts
2500
3000


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




HBs/flamers on vehicles seem to be costed at 15 points in 9th, with multimelta at 25, and no discount for twin-linked any more. So a base cost of 85 + weapon choice would end up at 115 for the flamer version, or 135 for the MM, which still feels too high.

I think the end values should be 105 for the flamer version, or 125 for the melta version. Even that's on the edge IMO, which shows how truly absurdly overcosted it is right now.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/14 20:17:58


 
   
Made in us
Blessed Living Saint




On the Internet

ERJAK wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
Rhino is 80 points, has 10 person transport capacity, same statline. Immolator has 4 less transport, gets 40 points more guns even if you weigh the HB and flamers at 15 points each rather than the 10 they cost on infantry (and subtract for missing the storm bolter), yet costs 45 more points. Doesn't make any sense - it's paying 5 more points than it should even if it had a 10 man transport capacity, even with the vehicle tax.

Yeah, it's a bit of a mess. I think GW is trying to put a surcharge onto platforms that have heavy weapons and transport capacity (much like how they over charge for the Land Raider) which would make sense if it didn't come with a trade off of being forced to fit less in side already. 10-15 points over the Rhino would have been fine. 20 tops.


Even then, that still puts the MM version at 140 which is just too high. The baseline chassis is worse than a rhino, so it should be worth less. Then add the heavy bolter and subtract the stormbolter and the chassis should end up being 85 at the max with the MM version clocking in at 125.

I said 20 points max over the Rhino. The Rhino is 80 that means it'd be 100 points total before upgrades. That's 20 points cheaper than it is now. That'd make a MM Immolator 130 points which is 5 points more than what you suggest.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/14 20:32:46


 
   
Made in us
Boosting Black Templar Biker






I think the Immolator at 100 or 110 for the Flamer option would be far more appealing while still leaving a reason to take the thrice blessed Rhino.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/14 21:25:03


 
   
Made in us
Crazed Zealot



Central MD

Immolators are fielded under the rule of cool. Roll forward, flambe the enemy, ram whats left, then explode.

I know one thing: I know nothing {Socrates}  
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




 ClockworkZion wrote:
ERJAK wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
Rhino is 80 points, has 10 person transport capacity, same statline. Immolator has 4 less transport, gets 40 points more guns even if you weigh the HB and flamers at 15 points each rather than the 10 they cost on infantry (and subtract for missing the storm bolter), yet costs 45 more points. Doesn't make any sense - it's paying 5 more points than it should even if it had a 10 man transport capacity, even with the vehicle tax.

Yeah, it's a bit of a mess. I think GW is trying to put a surcharge onto platforms that have heavy weapons and transport capacity (much like how they over charge for the Land Raider) which would make sense if it didn't come with a trade off of being forced to fit less in side already. 10-15 points over the Rhino would have been fine. 20 tops.


Even then, that still puts the MM version at 140 which is just too high. The baseline chassis is worse than a rhino, so it should be worth less. Then add the heavy bolter and subtract the stormbolter and the chassis should end up being 85 at the max with the MM version clocking in at 125.

I said 20 points max over the Rhino. The Rhino is 80 that means it'd be 100 points total before upgrades. That's 20 points cheaper than it is now. That'd make a MM Immolator 130 points which is 5 points more than what you suggest.


Is the MM only 30? My bad then. Thought it was still 40.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
CleansingFire wrote:
Immolators are fielded under the rule of cool. Roll forward, flambe the enemy, ram whats left, then explode.


Unless you go second, then they skip the first 3 steps.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/14 22:57:29


2500pts
2500
3000


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





yukishiro1 wrote:
If the app conflicts with the codex, doesn't the codex still prevail? I demand I still get my 240 points per model, immune to damage 1 nonsense!


As far as I'm concerned the App isn't an official document. Once an actual FAQ comes out then I'll change.
   
Made in us
Boosting Black Templar Biker






CleansingFire wrote:
Immolators are fielded under the rule of cool. Roll forward, flambe the enemy, ram whats left, then explode.
Concur. The miracle dice will be well spent to guarantee our gloroius Fire-Breathing-Lady makes the charge!

Unless you go second, then they skip the first 3 steps.
Still a blaze of glory

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/15 01:24:47


 
   
Made in us
Blessed Living Saint




On the Internet

 The Red Hobbit wrote:
Still a blaze of glory

Don't forget to bring the marshmallows!
   
Made in us
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain






A Protoss colony world

Space Marine Razorbacks are in pretty much the same boat as the Immolator, except not quite as bad. And nobody takes those either. I guess Geedubs doesn't want us to buy their expensive vehicle model kits.

My armies (re-counted and updated on 9/25/20, including modeled wargear options):
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 Mr_Rose wrote:
Who doesn’t love crazy mutant squawk-puppies? Eh? Nobody, that’s who.
 
   
Made in us
Blessed Living Saint




On the Internet

 ZergSmasher wrote:
Space Marine Razorbacks are in pretty much the same boat as the Immolator, except not quite as bad. And nobody takes those either. I guess Geedubs doesn't want us to buy their expensive vehicle model kits.

I doubt that's the case. It's more likely they don't want to put the points into a freefall since continual points drops are worse for the game.

There are other ways to fix the problem but that requires playtesting and a massive overhaul game wide.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/15 03:03:17


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




GW loves cutting prices as the edition goes on. That way they can raise them by 15% again when the new edition comes out to great fanfare about how it'll make the hobby cheaper and create less clutter on the board.

Trick never fails.
   
Made in us
Blessed Living Saint




On the Internet

yukishiro1 wrote:
GW loves cutting prices as the edition goes on. That way they can raise them by 15% again when the new edition comes out to great fanfare about how it'll make the hobby cheaper and create less clutter on the board.

Trick never fails.

Eh, they seem to do more point raises in response to the community feedback than they used to.
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




yukishiro1 wrote:
GW loves cutting prices as the edition goes on. That way they can raise them by 15% again when the new edition comes out to great fanfare about how it'll make the hobby cheaper and create less clutter on the board.

Trick never fails.


They did it once.

2500pts
2500
3000


 
   
Made in au
Repentia Mistress




Immo has +1 wound on the Rhino! That's why it costs so much! /s

   
Made in us
Boosting Black Templar Biker






Wanted to make sure I'm understanding the Ecclesiarchy Battle Conclave correctly.

So if the army contains a Ministorum Priest such as a Missionary or Preacher than certain models do not take up a slot in your detachment such as Crusaders and Death Cult Assassins. I want to make sure I have this right for the BSF models.

Taddeus the Purifier - Is a Priest and Ministorum so he should satisfy the requirement.

Gotfred de Montbard - A Crusader and does not take up a slot provided the EBC is in effect.

Pious Vorne - Does not have EBC rules and still takes up a slot.

Please let me know if I understood that correctly. Thanks
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Correct on all fronts since Gotfred has the EBC rule. However, these models currently do not have the Cult Imperials, Unaligned, or Agent of the Imperium keywords so their presence breaks detachment rules now. They also don't get access to Hymns of Battle .
   
Made in us
Blessed Living Saint




On the Internet

Additional point: you can make Taddeus using the regular Missionary and Vorne can be built using the Preacher dataslate so you can run them in your army more easily now.

So I was listening to the Forge the Narrative podcast cover part 2 of their look into the Sisters codex and hearing some discussion about the rhino rush that Dominions used to perform had me thinking that there is a not insignificant chance that we're paying a surcharge on our vehicles due to the buffing affect Argent Shroud has on them.
   
Made in us
Boosting Black Templar Biker






Taikishi wrote:
Correct on all fronts since Gotfred has the EBC rule. However, these models currently do not have the Cult Imperials, Unaligned, or Agent of the Imperium keywords so their presence breaks detachment rules now. They also don't get access to Hymns of Battle .


Ah shoot, that's a shame since I really like the BSF models. Do you think thats an oversight or intentional? If it's an oversight I hope it doesn't wind up like Valerian and Aleya where it doesn't get fixed for an extremely long period of time.
   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block




Thaddeus and Vorne can be taken as regular missionaries and preachers now, the datasheets have been updated to reflect their wargear.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




It's still an issue for Gotfret since he isn't a normal Crusader, as well as Jacobus and Kyrinov if you want to use Legends options.
   
Made in us
Blessed Living Saint




On the Internet

Taikishi wrote:
It's still an issue for Gotfret since he isn't a normal Crusader, as well as Jacobus and Kyrinov if you want to use Legends options.

Just use him as a normal Crusader. He's got a cool model and is worth using.

Jacobus and Kyrinov can both be built as Missionaries (though you might want to give Kyrinov a servo skull to act as a Servo stubber).
   
Made in us
Boosting Black Templar Biker






Gotfret is a great looking model and I am quite partial to the hacking advance ability. Shame that he has Battle Conclave but breaks the detachment.
   
Made in ca
Sybarite Swinging an Agonizer



Ottawa

The rules for the condemnor boltguns' mortal wounds say something along the lines of "when an attack is allocated to a psyker" (away from books right now so I don't remember the exact phrasing).

At what stage is an attack "allocated"?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/16 15:29:53


Cadians, Sisters of Battle (Valorous Heart), Drukhari (Obsidian Rose)

Read my Drukhari short stories: Chronicles of Commorragh 
   
Made in au
Repentia Mistress




-Guardsman- wrote:
The rules for the condemnor boltguns' mortal wounds say something along the lines of "when an attack is allocated to a psyker" (away from books right now so I don't remember the exact phrasing).

At what stage is an attack "allocated"?
It says 'Psyker model,' so just before saves are made. It's not well said though.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/16 15:55:15


   
Made in us
Sister Oh-So Repentia



Illinois

 ClockworkZion wrote:
So I was listening to the Forge the Narrative podcast cover part 2 of their look into the Sisters codex and hearing some discussion about the rhino rush that Dominions used to perform had me thinking that there is a not insignificant chance that we're paying a surcharge on our vehicles due to the buffing affect Argent Shroud has on them.
I think Argent Shroud is a sleeper hit. Average 15" of movement (16" if you take the +1 to advance sacred rite) on our vehicles and jump pack infantry and can still fire all weapons without penalty? Throw some Dominions into an Immolator for 22" of twin multi-melta goodness? I've got some things I want to try.

-Guardsman- wrote:
The rules for the condemnor boltguns' mortal wounds say something along the lines of "when an attack is allocated to a psyker" (away from books right now so I don't remember the exact phrasing).

At what stage is an attack "allocated"?
After the attack succeeds - hit roll, wound roll, successful attacks are allocated.

2k poorly optimized Necrons.
1k poorly assembled Sisters.

DR:90S++G+MB--I+Pw40k16#+D++A+/aWD-R++T(T)DM+
 
   
Made in ca
Sybarite Swinging an Agonizer



Ottawa

Lammia wrote:
It says 'Psyker model,' so just before saves are made. It's not well said though.

Okay, yeah, they definitely didn't phrase it as clearly as they could have. I first read "when an attack is allocated to a psyker model" as "when a psyker model is selected as a target", but I knew that couldn't possibly be the meaning. Maybe they should have said "when a successful wound is rolled against a psyker model".

Thanks.


Edit: Wow, people have actually been arguing over the "240 pts/model" thing? Unbelievable.

.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/16 16:08:57


Cadians, Sisters of Battle (Valorous Heart), Drukhari (Obsidian Rose)

Read my Drukhari short stories: Chronicles of Commorragh 
   
 
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