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-Guardsman- wrote:

Lammia wrote:
It says 'Psyker model,' so just before saves are made. It's not well said though.

Okay, yeah, they definitely didn't phrase it as clearly as they could have. I first read "when an attack is allocated to a psyker model" as "when a psyker model is selected as a target", but I knew that couldn't possibly be the meaning. Maybe they should have said "when a successful wound is rolled".

That's not right either though. It's after that, when the model is chosen to be the one to make the save.

You don't assign to a model until after wound roles


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 The Red Hobbit wrote:

Taikishi wrote:
Correct on all fronts since Gotfred has the EBC rule. However, these models currently do not have the Cult Imperials, Unaligned, or Agent of the Imperium keywords so their presence breaks detachment rules now. They also don't get access to Hymns of Battle .

Ah shoot, that's a shame since I really like the BSF models. Do you think thats an oversight or intentional? If it's an oversight I hope it doesn't wind up like Valerian and Aleya where it doesn't get fixed for an extremely long period of time.

It's most likely called wait for the faq

Yeah but it unfortunately took several FAQs and a bout a year before they finally fixed the keyword issue for Valerian and Aleya.

Hopefully it takes less than a year for these models.

Are any of the Elite-slot characters (Imagifier, Hospitaller, etc.) actually worth taking? Most of them seem fairly overpriced, IMO. The new Dogmata is the price of a fully kitted-out Canoness.

-Guardsman- wrote:
Are any of the Elite-slot characters (Imagifier, Hospitaller, etc.) actually worth taking? Most of them seem fairly overpriced, IMO. The new Dogmata is the price of a fully kitted-out Canoness.

Dogmata can make Smashmata if you're feeling silly, but honestly she has a wide range of buff utility (plus she can let a unit perform an action and still shoot) so being cheap makes sense. The Dialogus has a lot of utility in letting you change Faith Dice and has access to all the prayers like the Dogmata. Imagifier still has good utility since she hands out +1S, and the Hospitaller returns D3 dead infantry core for 1CP which is great for units like Sacrosancts or Retributors. Plus she hands out a FNP bubble.

All the characters are there to enhance anything you're building around towards though and aren't a combo by themselves.


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-Guardsman- wrote:
Are any of the Elite-slot characters (Imagifier, Hospitaller, etc.) actually worth taking? Most of them seem fairly overpriced, IMO. The new Dogmata is the price of a fully kitted-out Canoness.

Even if the 3+ has a chance to let you down, Hymns are pretty hot. Trading those, Shoot-while-Actioning Aura, and ObSec Aura for Re-roll 1's to hit Aura, +1W, and a bit better melee potential is pretty solid.

Taking both as besties, though...

 The Red Hobbit wrote:
Yeah but it unfortunately took several FAQs and a bout a year before they finally fixed the keyword issue for Valerian and Aleya.

Hopefully it takes less than a year for these models.

Tadeous is still playable in a second detatchment but him in a patrol with him and another priest

Sure you lose miracle dice and 1 battle sister squad loses order convictions and obsec it ain't that bad him and the priest then gain 6" auras of +1a. And you have slots for things that weren't getting bonuses anyway

Entertaingly you lose decree passive as a bonus so help yourself to extra priests

Losing miracle dice is not only "not that bad," it's basically a "why would you play this army any more?" sort of thing.

The wargear options for a Battle Sisters Squad are a bit confusingly phrased. Am I to understand that a 10-woman squad can carry 0-3 special weapons and 0-2 heavy weapons, not to exceed 3 weapons in both categories put together?

yukishiro1 wrote:
Losing miracle dice is not only "not that bad," it's basically a "why would you play this army any more?" sort of thing.

It doesnt stop you useing them or gaining them from non standard sources.

Battle Sanctum, repentia our martyred lady order conviction , beacon of faith

Sure you get less but it's not army braking and gaining multiple 6" +1A auras is a pretty big buff
For an aggro army

edit: Oh hey, you're right, it does look like technically you can still use acts of faith even if you aren't pure, you just can't gain the dice from the normal sources. That's really odd, and interesting.

Still wouldn't make taking those models viable, but it's interesting for souping that you can still use some acts of faith if you generate them other ways.

yukishiro1 wrote:
You can't use acts of faith at all unless your army is pure. The whole system goes away. Even if you can get miracle dice from other sources, you can't actually use them.

" acts of faith

Once per phase one unit from your army with this ability can perform one act of faith to do so you will use miracle dice"

"Gaining miracle dice

If every unit from your army has the adepta soriortas keyword excluding.... "

Acts of faith are not contingent on being a sororitas keyword just on the unit having the ability on it's datasheet

-Guardsman- wrote:
The wargear options for a Battle Sisters Squad are a bit confusingly phrased. Am I to understand that a 10-woman squad can carry 0-3 special weapons and 0-2 heavy weapons, not to exceed 3 weapons in both categories put together?

You are not to understand that.

0-9 1 heavy or special.
10-19 1 special and 1 heavy or special
29 2 special and 2 heavy or special.

-Guardsman- wrote:
The wargear options for a Battle Sisters Squad are a bit confusingly phrased. Am I to understand that a 10-woman squad can carry 0-3 special weapons and 0-2 heavy weapons, not to exceed 3 weapons in both categories put together?

No. 1 special or heavy from 1-9, a second special weapon at 10, and then a special or heavy and another special at 20.

Actually now that I'm reading the entry (codex litterally showed up after I hit post), yeah, 3 weapons at 10 looks like it's correct. That's a buff to 10 model units.

The reason for this is that the first 9 models unlocks 1 special or heavy and then there are TWO entries that kick in for "every 10 models" in the unit: 1 for special weapons, 1 for special or heavy weapons. That means at 10 models there would be three options available.

Kaffis wrote:

-Guardsman- wrote:
Are any of the Elite-slot characters (Imagifier, Hospitaller, etc.) actually worth taking? Most of them seem fairly overpriced, IMO. The new Dogmata is the price of a fully kitted-out Canoness.

Even if the 3+ has a chance to let you down, Hymns are pretty hot. Trading those, Shoot-while-Actioning Aura, and ObSec Aura for Re-roll 1's to hit Aura, +1W, and a bit better melee potential is pretty solid.

Taking both as besties, though...

tbf, you're probably going to be using fiery orator for your prayers the majority of the time.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

-Guardsman- wrote:
The wargear options for a Battle Sisters Squad are a bit confusingly phrased. Am I to understand that a 10-woman squad can carry 0-3 special weapons and 0-2 heavy weapons, not to exceed 3 weapons in both categories put together?

No. 1 special or heavy from 1-9, a second special weapon at 10, and then a special or heavy and another special at 20.

Actually now that I'm reading the entry (codex litterally showed up after I hit post), yeah, 3 weapons at 10 looks like it's correct. That's a buff to 10 model units.

The reason for this is that the first 9 models unlocks 1 special or heavy and then there are TWO entries that kick in for "every 10 models" in the unit: 1 for special weapons, 1 for special or heavy weapons. That means at 10 models there would be three options available.

Isn't it "up to 9 models you get 1 special or heavy"?
You don't have access to that specific option if your 10 or more.

 Ordana wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

-Guardsman- wrote:
The wargear options for a Battle Sisters Squad are a bit confusingly phrased. Am I to understand that a 10-woman squad can carry 0-3 special weapons and 0-2 heavy weapons, not to exceed 3 weapons in both categories put together?

No. 1 special or heavy from 1-9, a second special weapon at 10, and then a special or heavy and another special at 20.

Actually now that I'm reading the entry (codex litterally showed up after I hit post), yeah, 3 weapons at 10 looks like it's correct. That's a buff to 10 model units.

The reason for this is that the first 9 models unlocks 1 special or heavy and then there are TWO entries that kick in for "every 10 models" in the unit: 1 for special weapons, 1 for special or heavy weapons. That means at 10 models there would be three options available.

Isn't it "up to 9 models you get 1 special or heavy"?
You don't have access to that specific option if your 10 or more.

Looking again "9 or fewer".

So looks like 10 models aren't as good. Must have been too distracted by new book smell to notice the wording properly.

I read the BSS weapon allocation as:

9 or less you get one special or heavy.

At ten you get one special and one special or heavy.

At twenty you get two specials and (one heavy/one special or two specials).

So at twenty you could have four special weapons, or three and a heavy.

At ten two special or 1 and 1.

At nine or less 1 of either.

Edit: the first weapon upgrade option is 9 or fewer, and if you have 10 you're not at 9 or fewer.

At twenty you get two specials and two specials or heavy weapons (in any combination).

Lammia wrote:

-Guardsman- wrote:
The rules for the condemnor boltguns' mortal wounds say something along the lines of "when an attack is allocated to a psyker" (away from books right now so I don't remember the exact phrasing).

At what stage is an attack "allocated"?

It says 'Psyker model,' so just before saves are made. It's not well said though.

Actually it is. Problem is just differing wording to 8e. 9e rules has this step "3. allocate attack". So it actually is very clear...if you read rules with zero pre-ideas based on old editions which is very hard(I failed this one as well).

Wording is clear. It's just subtly different to 8e with wording even if actual steps are same.


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 ClockworkZion wrote:

-Guardsman- wrote:
The wargear options for a Battle Sisters Squad are a bit confusingly phrased. Am I to understand that a 10-woman squad can carry 0-3 special weapons and 0-2 heavy weapons, not to exceed 3 weapons in both categories put together?

No. 1 special or heavy from 1-9, a second special weapon at 10, and then a special or heavy and another special at 20.

Actually now that I'm reading the entry (codex litterally showed up after I hit post), yeah, 3 weapons at 10 looks like it's correct. That's a buff to 10 model units.

The reason for this is that the first 9 models unlocks 1 special or heavy and then there are TWO entries that kick in for "every 10 models" in the unit: 1 for special weapons, 1 for special or heavy weapons. That means at 10 models there would be three options available.

You don't take them by steps. You take X amount of models and then go through options.

"If this unit contains 9 or fewer models". Well...your unit of 10 contains 10 models. It does not fit to that category.

10 is 2.

So, what do we think is the best melee option for Paragon Warsuits (setting aside, for the moment, whether or not they are worth playing)? Reason I ask is because it doesn't look like it'll be easy to magnetize at all, in fact probably impossible to do so, ergo I want the best option for my suits. I'm leaning toward the maces actually; yes they suffer a hit penalty but 3 damage is very nice, and usually when I play them Morvenn will be around to give them the reroll buff, mitigating said penalty.

The other weapons look as though they should be pretty straightforward to magnetize, so no problems there.

U02dah4 wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
Losing miracle dice is not only "not that bad," it's basically a "why would you play this army any more?" sort of thing.

It doesnt stop you useing them or gaining them from non standard sources.

Battle Sanctum, repentia our martyred lady order conviction , beacon of faith

yukishiro1 wrote:edit: Oh hey, you're right, it does look like technically you can still use acts of faith even if you aren't pure, you just can't gain the dice from the normal sources. That's really odd, and interesting.

No, it breaks it from all sources. Keep reading after the Vengeance and Sacrifice: "Note that Miracle dice can also be gained via other rules. No matter the source, you can only gain Miracle dice from such a rule if every..." and then the exact same restrictions as on Vengeance and Sacrifice.

Soup doesn't break Acts of Faith, but it does break Miracle Dice from every source. The only way around this I see is Incensor Cherubs, who provide dice that aren't Miracle Dice but can be used for an Act of Faith as if they were.

You are correct unfortunately

However while you make a good RAI case in true GW style it doesn't work under RAW

The convention is that army wide rules say you can't do something

And model specific rules say you can

Model specific rules override the general rules or they all do nothing.

E.g. the general rule is you can't charge after advancing but the penitent engine has a model specific rule saying it can so it can

Repentia have a specific rule that says when they die you gain a miracle dice this over rules the general rule that says you can only gain miracle dice from another source if you have a sorroritas detatchment

Does it, though, since it calls out other rules that generate them (which the Repentia rule would qualify as) and says they don't work?

Admittedly, I'm coming back from a long time away, so I don't know -- does GW have a "can vs. cannot" type rule that should be applied here?

Logically it makes no sense what U02dah4 claims. Why would in the same book explicitly be mentioned you can't gain the miracle dice even through e.g. unit abilities, just for the datasheet of that unit to overrule that clause anyway? I didn't think there could be any confusion about this, but apparently there can be.

I was quite sure that GW has somewhere written that codex rules overrule the core rules. Which would make the Penitent Engines be able to advance and charge. Tried to look it up but no success though.

No there's not been a codex overrules core rule since 7th

Nor is there a blanket can vs cannot

Specific rules overule general in all instances or the game breaks down because their are 100's of instances of it.

I'm not saying it makes sense GW rules quite often don't or don't do what they think they do which is why their are so many faq's. I suspect that RAI they intended it to do what was written and prevent miracle dice being gained unless you have a sororitas detatchment

But RAW it doesn't do that and convention is RAW over RAI unless rai doesn't work.

It puts you in a position of saying that specific rule unlike all other specific rules doesn't overrule the general rules for no reason

Or it does nothing effectively after the first bit (where you don't gain miracle dice or gain the extra ways to gain miracle dice) x

I don't actually agree with your interpretation being RAW. First, you claim model rules override the general rules. Where is that written? How is that RAW? Saying they otherwise "all do nothing" is also an interpretation, not RAW.

Second, the book explicitely states "No matter the source, you can only gain Miracle dice from such a rule if every unit from your army has the Adepta Sororitas keyword (excluding ...)." The Repentia rule says you gain a miracle dice and refers to the page where the previous sentence is stated. Pretty clear, and RAW, that the Adepta Sororitas keyword clause is part of the gaining of a miracle dice.

After having looked up the exact wording, I fail to see how there can be any misinterpretation here.

If a rule says you can charge after advancing why does that overule the general rule that advancing models cannot charge after advancing

Why can assault weapons fire after advancing when the general rule is that they are ineligible to be selected

Why can units targeted by the fire overwatch stratagem fire overwatch when the general rule is you can't fire overwatch

Why does celestine reduce damage characteristics of attacks by 1 when the general rule is weapons deal the damage they specify

Why do repentia gain you a miracle dice when they die in a ministorum detachment when the general rule is they don't

Why do repentia gain miracle dice in a soriatas detatchment when the general rule is only characters that die gain you one

Why can celestial sacresants heroically intervene when the general is that only characters can do so.

I can provide 100s of answers like that no it isn't codified but if you don't do that almost no rules function so if your going to argue specific doesnt overule general by RAW can you explain all those interactions without resorting to specific overrules general and Why one is different to the others.

Yeah, "you can never do X no matter what" always overrides "you can do X" on a datasheet. If your subfaction rule said you can never advance and charge with units from this subfaction, and you have a unit that can normally advance and charge, it can't do so in the subfaction.

Another problem that I have with the rule that limits its application is that gaining miracle dice is part of the acts of faith rules box even accepting its wording as intended.

This is not an army wide rule it only applies to models with the acts of faith ability on their datasheet and some miracle dice generation occurs on units without acts of faith so the gaining miracle dice rule could be deemed not to apply to them e.g. Battle sanctum so these still function they don't have the acts of faith rule so the miracle keeps dice generation restriction doesnt apply to them