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The other day, I was playing against a rules lawyer and he said that you don't have to tell your opponent what unit is inside a specific transport(which kind of screwed me over because his eldar tank turbo boosted and melta ed me to death)'

Also do you have to show your opponent your army list as well?

Everything is open book in 40K. You have to show your opponent your army list and declare which units are inside which transports. Obviously the rules around dedicated transports still apply.

So yes and yes.

The first of the previous discussions on this topic:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/304351.page

Summary version: If you and your opponent cannot agree on how to handle unit secrecy, you are directed to page two to settle the disgreement. If you can't settle the disagreement, shake hands and agree that you should not play the game after all.

Actually Solkan is incorect. The rules on page 92 under the heading "A Note On Secrecy" are quite clear on the matter. The so-called "most important rule" is not actually a rule and has nothing to do with the question at hand.

Depends. If not then there has to be a 100% way for them to prove to you that, that specific unit was in that transport from the start. Otherwise there is going to be cheating as people swap units inside depending on the tactical situation.

I common convention among my group is to put the squad leader on top of the transport to denote which squad is in which transport.

After much experimenting, I finally can physically put 20 boyz in a battlewagons. Or, to better describe it, pile them onto it. The only thing that won't fit so far are burnaz with Ghazghkull...

Don't do this at tournaments though, there are unpatient opponents who will give you the stare of death while you are untangling your boyz

I agree with putting the squad leader on top, but i play against the people who write my lists, so they generally know.

At tournaments, the way i work it is to guide the opponent through my list (as the tournament rules dictate) and point to the unit. i.e this is a unit of stormtroopers, with 2 meltas.

That way, when i put the Sgt on the top (as all my squads are painted slightly differently) if they remember who is who, then they know who is where- but more importantly, the ONLY unit who can be in the transport are those who match the sgt

The rulebook explicitly says you have to note what is in your transports clearly.

i usually make sure the opponent makes a note of which unit is in which transport(his are painted with different symbols to help this) so that he can't just decide. he then gives it to me to keep so i know he hasn't changed it when i'm not looking.

it makes it more realistic IMHO as on the battlefield you wouldn't know exactly what was in each one. Not sure on rules for this but we see it as a fair way.

I always understood it as you don't have to declare anything to your opponent. You can ask questions but they don't have to answer, part of the secrecy of battle. However, if you go by this path, you have to allow your opponent to see your army list after the game.

I personally talk my way through every single thing in the game with my opponent, place my sergeants on the transports, and am very open. However, if the game was competitive and I wanted to use decoys, I would make a note about who is in what and not let my opponent see anything until they pile out and melt their face.

Easy version- if you go secretive, write it down to prevent cheating and show your army list at the end. For friendly games, total openness is my favorite policy.

-cgmckenzie

For non-friendly game any secrecy without agreement would be against the rules on page 92.

Based on "A Note on Secrecyt" you are to exchange army lists after the game unless you agree to share lists before and/or during the game. You do need to make clear which squads are embarked on which transports. So,

Opponent: "What is in that Rhino?"
You: "A Grey Hunter pack."

That is it.

There is no secrecy in 40k. This isn't Fantasy where you can give units magic items and go "OH LOOK THIS UNIT HAS THE BANNER OF YOU LOSE!" or "OH LOOK MY SLANN HAS CUPPED HANDS, I GUESS YOU DIE NOW."

I always leave a model on top of my transport so that I know which unit is where. It's especially handy when I have normal CSM in my Khorne painted rhino.

Noisy_Marine wrote:There is no secrecy in 40k. This isn't Fantasy where you can give units magic items and go "OH LOOK THIS UNIT HAS THE BANNER OF YOU LOSE!" or "OH LOOK MY SLANN HAS CUPPED HANDS, I GUESS YOU DIE NOW."

I always leave a model on top of my transport so that I know which unit is where. It's especially handy when I have normal CSM in my Khorne painted rhino.

That isn't the issue. Leaving a CSM on top of the Khorne painted Rhino is just fine since you are letting your opponent know that the squad inside is a CSM squad which is identical to him asking and you answering,

Opponent: "What is in that Rhino?"
You: "A CSM squad."

I usually paint unit markings on all my squads with matching markings on their transports. Placing IC's on top of the transport to show where they are is something I do to help my opponent.

Armandloft wrote:I usually paint unit markings on all my squads with matching markings on their transports. Placing IC's on top of the transport to show where they are is something I do to help my opponent.

As has been mentioned in the past, during the course of a game, one unit may need to embark on another units dedicated transport so matching markings are not always a surefire way to keep within the rules. However, announcing that said unit is embarking in a different units transport keeps you within the rules.

Brother Ramses wrote:

Armandloft wrote:I usually paint unit markings on all my squads with matching markings on their transports. Placing IC's on top of the transport to show where they are is something I do to help my opponent.

As has been mentioned in the past, during the course of a game, one unit may need to embark on another units dedicated transport so matching markings are not always a surefire way to keep within the rules. However, announcing that said unit is embarking in a different units transport keeps you within the rules.

At that point, I think that it would be obvious what is where. At turn one, you can pull the transport shell game. "That was the empty Razorback you destroyed, my squad was actually in that other one."

If I embark a squad onto another squad's transport, then my opponent should know by reasoning of paying attention while playing which unit just embarked in the transport.

That shell game in turn 1 would only actually happen if your opponent forgot that said Razorback was empty since you are compelled to let your opponent know which squad is embarked in which transport.

I'm a Newb, but it seems to me you could paint a Unit Logo on a Base then put some bases upside-down on your transports. Some would be Unit markers, some would be blank markers, and there's no cheating because they're clearly marked, and you won' be able to tell if the two bases on that Rhino are the IC and the Squad, or just two blank bases.

Bounty wrote:I'm a Newb, but it seems to me you could paint a Unit Logo on a Base then put some bases upside-down on your transports. Some would be Unit markers, some would be blank markers, and there's no cheating because they're clearly marked, and you won' be able to tell if the two bases on that Rhino are the IC and the Squad, or just two blank bases.

Wow, that's actually a really good idea.

Except that per A Note on Secrecy, the default standard is to inform your opponent which unit is in which transport.

Playing with hidden markers or writing down which is in which is a perfectly okay and fun way to play with friends if they agree to it.

I've never understood the whole disclosure thing! If you want to look after the game fine with me. There is no way that your army is psychic and knows what weapons every one of my guys has and what transports they are in. Things need to to be marked and notes made to eliminate cheating. If I place a bunch of rhinos and landraiders on the field, you should have no idea what is in the realistically!

Maybe there is nothing in them and my guys are gonna come in from reserve later, you shouldn't know.

Andrew1975 wrote:I've never understood the whole disclosure thing! If you want to look after the game fine with me. There is no way that your army is psychic and knows what weapons every one of my guys has and what transports they are in. Things need to to be marked and notes made to eliminate cheating. If I place a bunch of rhinos and landraiders on the field, you should have no idea what is in the realistically!

Maybe there is nothing in them and my guys are gonna come in from reserve later, you shouldn't know.

"The rules, while creating a very rough approximation of the real world, are an abstraction of a fantasy universe. Real world examples have no bearing on how the rules work."

AkA Its better to know what is where to eliminate cheating.

short answer, yes you do. otherwise what's to stop you from saying 'oh, that squad you just blew up at my front line didn't have the meltas, it had the lascannons'

DeathReaper wrote:

Andrew1975 wrote:I've never understood the whole disclosure thing! If you want to look after the game fine with me. There is no way that your army is psychic and knows what weapons every one of my guys has and what transports they are in. Things need to to be marked and notes made to eliminate cheating. If I place a bunch of rhinos and landraiders on the field, you should have no idea what is in the realistically!

Maybe there is nothing in them and my guys are gonna come in from reserve later, you shouldn't know.

"The rules, while creating a very rough approximation of the real world, are an abstraction of a fantasy universe. Real world examples have no bearing on how the rules work."

AkA Its better to know what is where to eliminate cheating.

short answer, yes you do. otherwise what's to stop you from saying 'oh, that squad you just blew up at my front line didn't have the meltas, it had the lascannons'

Ah ok we get rid of reality because we are too lazy to think of a better way! Just mark your squads and vehicles on a sheet of paper. It's not that hard.

Andrew1975 wrote:There is no way that your army is psychic [and knows what weapons every one of my guys has and what transports they are in.

Actually. This is 40k. Near enough everyone has psykers. Explains a lot as to why there is no secrecy. And if there wasnt psykers? Its still the 41st millenium. Im sure they have very sophistimicated technologies to scan the opposing army and relay information to the troops on the ground.

unbeliever87 wrote:Everything is open book in 40K. You have to show your opponent your army list and declare which units are inside which transports. Obviously the rules around dedicated transports still apply.

So yes and yes.

agreed.

If you dont declare there is alot of room for cheating.

Aandayyan wrote:

Andrew1975 wrote:There is no way that your army is psychic [and knows what weapons every one of my guys has and what transports they are in.

Actually. This is 40k. Near enough everyone has psykers. Explains a lot as to why there is no secrecy. And if there wasnt psykers? Its still the 41st millenium. Im sure they have very sophistimicated technologies to scan the opposing army and relay information to the troops on the ground.

It's SO sophisticated I still need line of site to shoot most artillery!

During deployment you kinda have to tell your opponent which units are in which transports.
This includes specifying which units are kept in Reserve with intent to Deep Strike and which are kept in Reserve with intent to Outflank.

While you are not explicitly required to tell your opponent during the game, refusing to is a dick move and will only lead to you opponents starting to write down which units are in which transports, and employing their own system of marking.
This will invariably lead to delays in the game. All of which could have been avoided by simply telling your opponent.