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Ok let me start off, I consider myself a pretty knowledgeable 40k player, and I have seen the grey knight dex. Now Orks is a first as I don't usually play xenos but I want to start a xenos army. So I thought about orks the only real delay (and correct me if I am wrong) the only major delay is grey knights. They have purifier spam which will kill half my orks before they attack and then the orks will most likely lose in combat from the -15. So how do you beat that along with all the other sneaky tricks. The vindicare assassin being able to snipe out my nobs and their other assortment or dealing with hordes. On the other hand I have been contemplating lists, which do you think will be the most competitive in a tournament (noting in your IG and SW BA, GKs) is it a Kan wall list or Battlewaggon list. Also how would you run said list, andy hints I should know.

So, welcome to orks.

I have a friend who shares your opinion on the purifier spam list, I however disagree. Why? YOU DO NOT JUST CHARGE THEM WITH BOYZ!!! Why on earth would you? Dear lord, shoot them. Or charge them with kanz. The Gk lists to be afraid of are the ones with 30+ S7 shots per turn. Those can make your life difficult to say the least.

Vindicare Assassins are a T4 W2 model. If you can't figure out a way to kill it, even with a 3+ cover, means you're list needs work. Yes it is nasty if you give it a clear shot at a mob, so don't give it to him.

The answers to how you deal with either of these units depends on what army you play. And this depends on what you want out of your game. Kan wall gives you limited tactical options- You put your army on the board and walk forward, shooting till you charge, or you castle up hard and shoot till your opponent is no more. Tactically forgiving, but immobile. Also difficult to lose with-your opponent has to beat your list. Battle wagon is more tactically flexible, and more popular on the national level. It allows you to adapt and gives you more mobility, but if you make a few mistakes, the game becomes much more difficult to win. I personally love kan-wall, and would recommend it to anyone who likes to roll dice and win games.

Search Dashofpepper and check out his lists- he plays both lists and has threads detailing what the lists entail and how they play best.

Ypu I know that dash and his pink orks Anyway, I would probably find that the purifiers would just charge me instead. I will be taking shoota boyz, so I guess shooting them might work along with the 45 lootas that will be hitting up the dreadnaughts and such. So I assume that going battlewagon list is better than the kan wall. So what should I take 45 lootas, 30 ork shootas Big Mek w/KFF 3 Battle Wagons? Does that seem good. What is a good load out (I guess deathrolla)

The thing to remember is that Purifier spam list is practically king of GK S7 rending shots...4 or 8 per every 5 men in a squad. (4 10 man squads...16 psycannons...32 or 64 shots). I'm not sure about general Ork loadout, but every time I have seen Lootas in play they are devastating. I know I would be scared of 45 Lootas...

Oooo GK army. Big deal.
Kan squad, 2 battlewagon with killkannon + zap gun (if you play it as you don't need to roll to shoot) + deffrolla (a 20 points just in case thing) + ard case
2 Mek boy.
2 full loota squad
KOMMANDOS with snikrot (IMPORTANT)

boyz in wagon, buggies everywhere.

What people seem to forget is that purifiers have to get INTO close combat. And that orks are pretty damn good at shooting.

If you're using purifiers, you're probably using rhinos. Well rhinos don't do too well with 15, 30 or 45 autocannon shots and the contents inside are particularly squishy against S7 AP3.

Recently I've been playing nothing but ork shooty lists because apparently people have forgotten how scary ork shooting can be. So what if you have a land raider? I've got 2 deffrollas waiting if you get close. But until then, I'll pop every other rhino and squish the contents inside. And guess what? You'll have to come to ME.

Yeah that's right. I'm the one with 45 autocannon shots versus your silly 6 TL S8 shots. I'm the one with the kommandos that can come from any table edge with 2 burnas which are potentially power weapons and a buttload of S6 reroll to hit attacks. I'm... blah blah blah.

My boyz all got rokkit launchaz and are a red (yes my orks are red) tarpit. Less effective against purifiers sure but thats why I got me kanz in the front.

I don't know why everyone is panicking that ork hoard sucks and GK > orks.

Yes you can't really run a competitive green choppa tide anymore but don't forget about the shoota tide.

(and for those of you silly silly umies who don't think orks can hit, remember that shootas are assault 2 S4 18" so while each shot only has a 1/3rd chance of hitting, you're shooting 2 shots which makes the chance of at least one hitting equal to a bolter with the bonus that you have a small chance of both hitting [no i do not remember what this was called in statistics, feel free to remind me])
And guess what? 30 shoota boyz = dakkkkkkkkkkkkkakakakakdkkakdakdkadkadkadkakdak

/rant

Bad advice is bad.

terranarc wrote:Oooo GK army. Big deal.
Kan squad, 2 battlewagon with killkannon + zap gun (if you play it as you don't need to roll to shoot) + deffrolla (a 20 points just in case thing) + ard case
2 Mek boy.
2 full loota squad
KOMMANDOS with snikrot (IMPORTANT)

boyz in wagon, buggies everywhere.

What sort of army is that supposed to be? Why would you wan't 11 boyz in an 'ard cased wagon? Why two big meks(KFF?) for two wagons? Why mix kanz with wagons? The Zzapgun is also a waste of point, no matter how you put it, it can't fire the same turn as the killkannon, and you do have to roll to hit. The killkannon is realy bad, too, unless you're tailoring against purifiers.

What people seem to forget is that purifiers have to get INTO close combat. And that orks are pretty damn good at shooting.

If you're using purifiers, you're probably using rhinos. Well rhinos don't do too well with 15, 30 or 45 autocannon shots and the contents inside are particularly squishy against S7 AP3.

1) Lootaz are DS4
2) 5 Lootaz kill rhinos just as good as 15.

Recently I've been playing nothing but ork shooty lists because apparently people have forgotten how scary ork shooting can be. So what if you have a land raider? I've got 2 deffrollas waiting if you get close. But until then, I'll pop every other rhino and squish the contents inside. And guess what? You'll have to come to ME.

So they move up to 24" and shoot all your lootaz dead. What now? Your killkannon is not going to kill more than 3-4 a turn... if it doesn't scatter. If a single purifier manages to charge your boyz, he can pull cleansing flames on them.

Yeah that's right. I'm the one with 45 autocannon shots versus your silly 6 TL S8 shots. I'm the one with the kommandos that can come from any table edge with 2 burnas which are potentially power weapons and a buttload of S6 reroll to hit attacks. I'm... blah blah blah.

Grey Knights are usually found in the middle of the board, so kommandoz are moot. Also guess what those 6 TL S8 shots will kill on their first turn... Hint: it's not your battlewagons.

My boyz all got rokkit launchaz and are a red (yes my orks are red) tarpit. Less effective against purifiers sure but thats why I got me kanz in the front.

Those kanz will be dead if you decide to wait for your enemy to come. Psycannons have two turns of shooting at them, once they are in range.

I don't know why everyone is panicking that ork hoard sucks and GK > orks.

Yes you can't really run a competitive green choppa tide anymore but don't forget about the shoota tide.

(and for those of you silly silly umies who don't think orks can hit, remember that shootas are assault 2 S4 18" so while each shot only has a 1/3rd chance of hitting, you're shooting 2 shots which makes the chance of at least one hitting equal to a bolter with the bonus that you have a small chance of both hitting [no i do not remember what this was called in statistics, feel free to remind me])
And guess what? 30 shoota boyz = dakkkkkkkkkkkkkakakakakdkkakdakdkadkadkadkakdak

I don't know either where the panic is comming from, but you miss the point. About all ork lists are shooting stuff already. While at the core you're right (shoot greyknights till they're dead) the detailed advice is quite bad.

I play mech orks and I have had no problems with GK opponents. I played two last night (my first two against GK's) and tabled them both. One ran purifier spam the other one just had a ton of termies.

if you do all the important things such as target priority and limiting their mobility you should turn out just fine. Remember GK's die just as easily as regular SM's.

here is a Short list of things that will hurt the orks


1) Orks do not have any Psy Defense.

a) Fortitude: subtle, but is means that the masses of S7-8 firepower that you have is less effective. You have very limited AP1 to counteract this. This is going to be a pain.
b) Shrouding: cover saves on vehicles means your mass S7-8 firepower is even less effective now.
c) Purifying Flame: not so sublte. Means your Boys will not do so great in combat anymore. Grey Knights have the tools to win a shooting war as well, so it is going to be tough either way.
d) Force Weapons: Not so bad for Boys, terrible for Nobs. They rely on wound allocation for durability. A 5++ save in not enough. These guys are not going to do so well in combat either.

There is not really much you can do against any of this. You have no option for psy defence. The main thing here is that combat is very dangerous for Orks against GK, especially Purifiers, when they can reliably cast spells.

Shooting seems to be our only chance, but GK have a lot of firepower at the 24" range, where most ork shooting is as well. It will be tough.


2) Vindicare

This guy looks a little scary, but if your mobs of boys have cover, it is not so bad. You could get unlucky and loose your KFF, Nob, or other buried character, but I do not think it is the worst thing ever. You can kill this guy, it is not so bad really.

For me the scary things about GK's are:
- Cleansing Flame on Purifiers. Kicking the teeth of horde armies. Ork assaults are almost wasted on Purifiers.
- Space Marine Initiatve and Force weapons. Any combat we do engage will smash us up since the force weapons negate the armour and the multi-wound shenanigans, while the I4 means most units can't hit first.

It does seem like shooty is the way to go. Perhaps mobile gunwagons as well, that might pay off. Maybe the SAG too.

I have been trying to bring more rockets (like TL Rocket Warbuggies) bring more troops (so no expensive/power-weapon-vulnerable Nobs Mobs or Meganobz) bring some Burnas in a BW (they like termies and clumped-up power armored squads in general) and bring some Kans (for claws and MORE rockets).

This is in response to GK and SW and BA. Bring numbers. Bring dakka (quantity of shots) don't focus so much on assault - shoot-shoot-shoot and wait for the opportune moment to assault.

for grey knights... they are just mroe weak oomans but with shinyier armor and different weapons. as everythign else in an ork's life:

if more boys charging don't work then more dakka

if dakka doesn't work then throw more boys at is

tha tis all the ork strategy i need

Okay goofy thanks for no help .
@jidmah okay so you are bashing his list (though I do thank you for trying to help me and I will consider your shooty orks.), and some parts I do agree with would not make sense. But put your money where your mouth is and what would be your list and how to effectively win.
To everyone it does seem that shooting is one way to go. Ugh that grey knight dex really screwed are combat.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So what about a battlewagon list like this

Big Mek with KFF
Ghazghkull
3 x20 shoota boys with nob PK and Bosspole
x6 Nobz + Painboy load out
-TL shoota
-Power klaw
- KombiRokkit weapon
-Waaagh Banner
-Bosspole
-Bigchompa
2 15 Lootas
2 Battlewagon Red Paintjob Deffrolla ard case, and Grabbin Klaw.
So what do you think of that as a test run for a battlewagon list. Can it beat those grey knights, also should I take deff koptas or other things.

Jidmah wrote:Bad advice is bad.
What sort of army is that supposed to be? Why would you wan't 11 boyz in an 'ard cased wagon? Why two big meks(KFF?) for two wagons? Why mix kanz with wagons? The Zzapgun is also a waste of point, no matter how you put it, it can't fire the same turn as the killkannon, and you do have to roll to hit. The killkannon is realy bad, too, unless you're tailoring against purifiers.

You don't actually play orks do you? I'd like to emphasize that just reading a codex and theorizing is not a good way (or a way at all) to give advice. Also, please don't troll.
1) I never said 11 boyz. 19 boyz + mekboy in a wagon is extremely resilient for objective sitting and opportunistic about what to assault.
2) Since you've never played orks, I'll tell you right now that the 6" bubble from a wagon is actually pretty small. And why 2? Simple. Cover the buggies. I can leave the buggies out in the open and still claim my 4+ and will continue to do so (while shooting each turn ofc) unless there are opportunities of side shots which in this specific case is pointless since dreads are armor 12 all around and (the targets that I will actually be shooting) rhinos/razors are just 11.
3) Now, if you can remember, one of the damage results on both the penetrating and the glancing table is weapon destroyed. For 15 points, I sure don't mind the auto shaken that comes with any glancing/penetrating hits, AP2 and autohit. Most people online brag about kannons but at BS2, only the frag shot is worth it but highly redundant given just how many S4 shots your army can dish out.

Jidmah wrote:
1) Lootaz are DS4
2) 5 Lootaz kill rhinos just as good as 15.

Firstly I don't know what DS is. It can't even be a typo since the "d" key is pretty far away from the "b" key. Secondly, I HOPE its not a typo since that you imply that you think that lootas are BS4. In which case my previous assumption is wrong and you haven't even read the ork codex. Lootas are BS2. They hit 1/3rd of the time. If you've actually played and used orks you would know that 5 lootas can't do crap. Great, 5-15 BS2 autocannons that glance on a 4+, pen on 5 and 6.

Jidmah wrote:So they move up to 24" and shoot all your lootaz dead. What now? Your killkannon is not going to kill more than 3-4 a turn... if it doesn't scatter. If a single purifier manages to charge your boyz, he can pull cleansing flames on them.

Jeeze the more I read the more I'm beginning to think that you don't even play 40k. Any ork player worth his teef will deploy his 2 loota squads at the corner of the map or along the board edge where he can get some decent LOS. A table is 48" by 72" by the way (since you may not know this). Walking? Enjoy your first 3 turns of footslogging. Rhino-razorbacking? You're riding into a wall of autocannon.

Jidmah wrote:
Grey Knights are usually found in the middle of the board, so kommandoz are moot. Also guess what those 6 TL S8 shots will kill on their first turn... Hint: it's not your battlewagons.

Yes you would totally walk your psyfleman dreads into the middle of the board amirite? And guess what? My whole army is "obscured." Enjoy trying to blow up my buggies with a perma 4+ cover. Now, if you actually did play 40k and knew what you were talking about, you WOULD be trying to get side shots into my wagon. Therefore exposing my troop choices/stopping my shooting/denying use of the deffrolla.

Jidmah wrote:Those kanz will be dead if you decide to wait for your enemy to come. Psycannons have two turns of shooting at them, once they are in range.

Psycannon from squad in range of my kanz = my wagons in range of your squads. Think about that for a second.

Jidmah wrote:
I don't know either where the panic is comming from, but you miss the point. About all ork lists are shooting stuff already. While at the core you're right (shoot greyknights till they're dead) the detailed advice is quite bad.

From what I've seen, GKs are just marines with power weapons and assault cannons everywhere. Regardless of how many psycannons, uberbolters or powerlolpons they have, they're just T4 3+. And T4 3+ will die to many things.

Now, for actual example on what I use (the backbone of my lists as I just tweak it weekly for fun. Like tankbustas instead of lootas, wagon instead of kanz, ect. One list all the time is a no-no for me):

2 Mekboy + flamer+ Kff
2x 19 shoota boyz with standard 40 pts nob upgrade and a rokkit
2 Wagons with Deffrolla and other standard upgrades. Zaapgun and big shoota.

2x10-15 lootas
15 Kommandos with snikrot and 2 burnas

2-3 3x buggies with TL rokkits and trakk upgrades

Rest of your points in grots or shootaboyz to hold objectives.

Firstly, mekboy with burna + 19 boyz in a wagon. Great for contesting objectives and being a fire magnet. Side armor 12 is tempting when it becomes available on turn 3-4 and only gets more tempting as the deffrolla gets closer. That 4+ cover save has saved my wagon 50% of the times. Ofc there are times when the wagon will get 1 shotted from a lucky lascannon on turn 1 or something but oh well.
Now, I don't usually take killkannon as I enjoy deffrolling too much but if I'm doing gunline orks (which is fun as hell) I'll always take the killkannon. The zap gun is great for anti terminator work. Well, not really but its still AP2 that rolls for strength so most of the time you wound termies on 2+. Personally, I enjoy using it to permalock a light vehicle like vetchimera or meltaspeeder that would otherwise be a grave threat to my tanks.

Lootas hug the board edge on your 2 corners. They'll have to run on turn 1 of dawn of war but oh well. Now, spearhead is a bit trickier but either way, idea is you spread them to opposite sides so they can't get mutually owned in one turn. They just pick off the transports as they come. Not quite as deadly against some armies but against marine armies, early disembarkation is a huge tactical disadvantage. They can't get where they need to be and must footslog everywhere.

Kommandoz are a MUST for any non-trukk list. Guaranteed outflank on any edge you want with 2 burnas means that anything thats hugging the table edge is threatened by you. Just last week a guy was running a lascanon/missile dread in a corner. There were also some other metal boxes sitting with the dread raining las/autodeath on my buggies and kanz. Kommandos come in on turn 3, assaults the shiznit out of the metal boxes with grotsnik's S6 daggers and loads upon loads of S4 hits (glance to death hell yeah). Kommandos, imo, are paramount to orks. More accurately, snikrot is paramount to orks. Now, why do I take them in squads of 15? Because having more wounds means you live longer in CC against longfangs and shooty dreads. That dread I was mentioning? Yeah he got into assault with my kommandos. Could he kill me? No. Could I kill him? No. But for the rest of the game, I had one less TL lascannon/krak missile to worry about.

Buggies, I love buggies. People say, hey Terran, how come you don't use koptas? And to them I say, because Koptas die like grots. On turn 1, all my buggies have a 4+ cover. My koptas would've scouted but if I don't get first turn, bolters and lasguns will be in a frenzy to kill them. And they usually do. 3+ coversave is like a 3+ armor save. It never saves when you desperately need it to.

Not to mention, my buggies are a huge fire magnet. After a first game with someone, they'll usually never underestimate me buggies. They're the most maneuverable krak missiles you got and getting rear shots by turn 4 is not only possible, it should definitely be done if your opponent is running any russes or vehicles with obnoxious front armor. If there aren't any vehicles or vehicles left, go for the monstrous creatures (without 2+ save obviously) or just pick off marines to put psychological stress on them.

Now, this is just how I roll every week with my orks. I've played trukkheavy lists before but I find 12 boyz disappointing in CC and it doesn't help having like 10+ killpoints on the field that are as fragile as 12 boyz or an AV10 trukk. Orks have enough ranged threat to make the opponent come to you.

Personally, I find GKs not any more threatening than vanilla marines. Their advantage of having power weapons is wasted and S5 bolters hurt everyone equally. Low model count means higher firepower concentration which means your bajillion ork shooty attacks get concentrated even more. Also doesn't hurt that they can't use whirlwinds or other annoy cover denying things. Or assault termies. Or landspeeders. Or stormscouts.

My advice to you Jiddy is to stop reading pdfs and trolling online and actually go out and play 40k. Buy an AOBR set or something and get rollin. 40K is alot more fun when you're actually playing. Hell, the more you play, the more [insert synonym of slowed] people online seem to be.

My advice to everyone else is KFFs, kommandoz and have fun, not in that order. Oh and deffrollas too.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
So what about a battlewagon list like this

Big Mek with KFF
Ghazghkull
3 x20 shoota boys with nob PK and Bosspole
x6 Nobz + Painboy load out
-TL shoota
-Power klaw
- KombiRokkit weapon
-Waaagh Banner
-Bosspole
-Bigchompa
2 15 Lootas
2 Battlewagon Red Paintjob Deffrolla ard case, and Grabbin Klaw.
So what do you think of that as a test run for a battlewagon list. Can it beat those grey knights, also should I take deff koptas or other things.

So I play orks and two weeks ago I played my friend who runs GK and I haven't read the new dex so didn't think much about his new list. He might have mentioned that there were some "little" changes to it under his breath but I didn't find out about these minor changes until I charged two mobs of 30 boys into his purifiers. He then calmly rolled two hand fulls of 30 dice and instructed me to remove 17 boys from one mob and 14 from another. I had to sit there and read the purifying flame rule 5 times before it sunk in! After combat resolution both mobs were wiped out and the invincibility of an ork charge was a distant memory. Needless to say, I had to change my battle plan immediately! luckily it was annihilation game and lootas tipped the scales because his purifiers ran in transports and those are squishy.

Anyways, in that particular battle Ghaz did exceptionally well against the purifiers as well as my ten nobs w/painboy. Surprisingly my deffkoptas did well too with twin linked RL. and once I realized that Vindicare was a real pain I turbo boosted them to his location and they took care of business in assault. I run a hybrid list of Kan wall as a base and battle wagon + deffcoptas as a flanking element and for the most part it works. As far as lists go I would think that shooty orks would be very effective against GK due to their rather short range and lootas can take care of the dreads in a turn or two. So if I had to do it again i'd do the battlewagon list that you have in mind. Take out his transports and make him footslot for a change!

I actually won my first encounter with new-dex Grey Knights, which surprised me (1750pt game). I had very little left on the table (the tattered remains of a shoota boy mob, a small nob squad, and an immobalized deff dread), but I had scoring units, whereas I had wiped out my opponent's scoring units.

My Trukk charge was... rather pitifully melted away, but once my shoota boy mob made it across the table, I took out each of his troops turn by turn. Hell, very first turn, I nearly completely wiped out a Grey Knight's squad that was holding an objective, with a volley of Grotzooka shots (two guys survived, had to run for it).

My opponent flanked my loota squad on the right with deepstriking termies (along with a hero... I forget which one... bugger could summon guys), and send his Dreadknight to engage my loota squad on the left. I used my lootas on the right to buy time, first running, then allowing them to tie up in combat, essentially delaying the Termies from getting to and assisting his units that were being engaged by my boys on the opponent's side of the table.

The Dreadknight took two wounds from my second shoota boyz squad before it got anywhere, took another wound from the lootas it engaged, then jumped to assist his troops, and promptly failed to hit anything, and got killed off ;P

Second squad of shoota boyz engaged the termies, who had by then taken out the lootas on the right, and along with my squadron of killa kanz, sacrificed themselves to kill all the termies, and leave only the hero as the survivor. But, by then, I had killed all his scoring troops, and held the two objectives on my opponent's side of the table with my surviving shoota boyz squad (only 5 boyz left!) and a troop of Nobz with a Warboss (who never actually got far enough to get any krumping, so they just sat on an objective when they got to it).

My opponent also had a Dreadnought sitting in a ruin in the corner, but my kustom forcefield made it generally inept for the majority of its shooting.

Of course, not a very good example of grey-knight krumin', there were no purifiers, and, I think, the player had just started the army and was learning them. I have no expectations that I will perform as well next time I encounter a Grey Knights player

To be honest read what jidmah is saying again, I wouldn't dismiss it.
Just like to point out statistically most likely thing for 15 lootas to do to a rhino is shaken/stunned/immobilised you are not likely to blow it up. If your lootas aren't running away by turn 2 or 3 your opponent is doing something wrong. 200+ point spent to stop a 35 point vehicle from moving or shooting. I'm not saying bad or good but think about it. Orks are not primarily a shooting army, they need it yes but as support for your close combat. Building an army around your main strength is always gonna be your best bet.

necronsftw wrote:Okay goofy thanks for no help .
@jidmah okay so you are bashing his list (though I do thank you for trying to help me and I will consider your shooty orks.), and some parts I do agree with would not make sense. But put your money where your mouth is and what would be your list and how to effectively win.
To everyone it does seem that shooting is one way to go. Ugh that grey knight dex really screwed are combat.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So what about a battlewagon list like this

Big Mek with KFF
Ghazghkull
3 x20 shoota boys with nob PK and Bosspole
x6 Nobz + Painboy load out
-TL shoota
-Power klaw
- KombiRokkit weapon
-Waaagh Banner
-Bosspole
-Bigchompa
2 15 Lootas
2 Battlewagon Red Paintjob Deffrolla ard case, and Grabbin Klaw.
So what do you think of that as a test run for a battlewagon list. Can it beat those grey knights, also should I take deff koptas or other things.

My list is quite similar to yours, though I switched out the nobz weagon for biker nobz, as they can at least put descent amount of shooting into GKs with their Dakkagunz, while regular nobz turn to Shootaboyz against them. I also use 2x5 lootaz and got a unit of burnaz(+bw) for the points that were freed. My two groups of 3 deffkoptas have a great time shooting Purifiers to mush, and they can even do good in assaults against them as 2 wounds and 4+ keeps cleansing flame down. Mine is an all-comers list though, not tailored against GK.

Your list should work ok, though aren't you missing a bw for one unit of boyz?

terranarc wrote:You don't actually play orks do you? I'd like to emphasize that just reading a codex and theorizing is not a good way (or a way at all) to give advice. Also, please don't troll.
1) I never said 11 boyz. 19 boyz + mekboy in a wagon is extremely resilient for objective sitting and opportunistic about what to assault.

Hint: Have a look at you codex before insulting someone. Your wagons have Killkannons, thus reducing its transport capacity to 12. By the way, the HQ is called Big Mek, not mekboy.

2) Since you've never played orks, I'll tell you right now that the 6" bubble from a wagon is actually pretty small. And why 2? Simple. Cover the buggies. I can leave the buggies out in the open and still claim my 4+ and will continue to do so (while shooting each turn ofc) unless there are opportunities of side shots which in this specific case is pointless since dreads are armor 12 all around and (the targets that I will actually be shooting) rhinos/razors are just 11.

Since I never played orks, I wonder why you buy an 105 point HQ to cover a 105 point unit, instead of just more buggies who are perfectly easy to get into regular cover. No wait, the HQ is riding in a battlewagon with killkannon, that can only move 7" and still shoot. So those fast buggies can only move 7" too, waisting their fast vehicle status. Good thing I don't play orks.

3) Now, if you can remember, one of the damage results on both the penetrating and the glancing table is weapon destroyed. For 15 points, I sure don't mind the auto shaken that comes with any glancing/penetrating hits, AP2 and autohit. Most people online brag about kannons but at BS2, only the frag shot is worth it but highly redundant given just how many S4 shots your army can dish out.

It does not autohit. Please check YMDC if your are unsure on rules. It has a really bad chance of even glancing AV10, way worse than rokkits or kannons.

Jidmah wrote:
1) Lootaz are DS4
2) 5 Lootaz kill rhinos just as good as 15.

Firstly I don't know what DS is. It can't even be a typo since the "d" key is pretty far away from the "b" key. Secondly, I HOPE its not a typo since that you imply that you think that lootas are BS4. In which case my previous assumption is wrong and you haven't even read the ork codex. Lootas are BS2. They hit 1/3rd of the time. If you've actually played and used orks you would know that 5 lootas can't do crap. Great, 5-15 BS2 autocannons that glance on a 4+, pen on 5 and 6.

DS is the german abbreviation for AP, which you got wrong. *points at flag* Minor error. But as you have that much fun insulting someone who actually knows what orks do(even though he didn't read the codex or even plays them) I'll give you that chance hold a parade. Hint: If you actually do the math you just posted instead of typing down the numbers, those 5 lootaz manage 1.3 immobilizes/destroyed results on average.

Jeeze the more I read the more I'm beginning to think that you don't even play 40k. Any ork player worth his teef will deploy his 2 loota squads at the corner of the map or along the board edge where he can get some decent LOS. A table is 48" by 72" by the way (since you may not know this). Walking? Enjoy your first 3 turns of footslogging. Rhino-razorbacking? You're riding into a wall of autocannon.

Guess what? GK dreads have the same cannon and shoot better than you. Also guess what? If I'm in the middle of the table I can reach both table edges with a 24" gun. Guess what? GK have all 24" guns.

Yes you would totally walk your psyfleman dreads into the middle of the board amirite? And guess what? My whole army is "obscured." Enjoy trying to blow up my buggies with a perma 4+ cover. Now, if you actually did play 40k and knew what you were talking about, you WOULD be trying to get side shots into my wagon. Therefore exposing my troop choices/stopping my shooting/denying use of the deffrolla.

So to give some advice from someone not playing WH40k:
1) Non-Vehicles are never obscured. KFF gives 5+ to non-vehicles.
2) Yes, the GK would walk his psyfleman into the middle of the board if you field kommandoz. Why wouldn't he? Walkers can shoot and move, as the one of us playing WH40k you should know that.
3) Lootaz are the only thing that can pose a thread to psyflemen. Why should they shoot something else.
4) 2 Units of lootaz can only shoot two targets.
5) Any random unit of GK will blow your Buggies away. AV10 is not invincible, expecially not against mass stormbolters and psycannons without better targets.
6) 4+ saves do not make units invincible, especially not cardboard boxes with rokkits.
7) Glancings negate buggies on a 4+, penetrating hits on a 2+
8) You don't always get the first turn.
9) No one who actually knows what he does would try to get side shots at a BW sitting in the back. It's the worst battletank in the game, just ignore it.

Psycannon from squad in range of my kanz = my wagons in range of your squads. Think about that for a second.

Thought about it, killkannon is still not scary. As an ork player(which I am obviously not) you should know how spreading out works. If you are referring to boyz charge range, GK will slaughter the ridiculous small squards in your killkannon wagons.

[useful advice]

My advice to you Jiddy is to stop reading pdfs and trolling online and actually go out and play 40k. Buy an AOBR set or something and get rollin. 40K is alot more fun when you're actually playing. Hell, the more you play, the more [insert synonym of slowed] people online seem to be.

My advice to everyone else is KFFs, kommandoz and have fun, not in that order. Oh and deffrollas too.

If your age of mind actually were any older than 10, you could have simply convinced me(and everyone else) of your strategy by posting the whole thing without the hilarious insults and bashing on me not even owning orks. But, what ever, now you made a fool of yourself even if you are a good ork player.

Be sure to take rokkits on your boy mobs. I used to take big shootas but then I realized that there are times where you just need those S8 shots versus more redundant dakka. Had a clever IG player make a chimera wall the other day. I wasn't running any wagons and he just moved his wall back as I ran forward. Really wish I had some rokkits.
I usually run my wagons with deffrolla, ard case, grot riggers, Red paint and extra armor. That way I can be rollin' all day long and if it gets immobilized, I can repair it on a 4+ rigger, and a 4+ mekboy. I haven't really found a use for grabbin klawz since people generally move their vehicles away from my wagons and I don't blame them too. I'm going to use a wrecking ball in my next week's game to see how that turns out. Going to model the ball in front of my wagon so whatever I tank shock gets D6 S10 hits AND a potential S9 hit.

Why the 'ard case? I don't think the trade of no longer being able to charge out of it, is not worth the -1 damage table. Also note that a grabbin' klaw can be used against skimmers that dodged your ram, or vehicles that actually survived it.

That list looks fun to play but I'm not quite sure what you gonna do with ghazzy and nobs. If you're taking shoota boyz, you don't really need the 6" fleet. Otherwise, ghazzy is just an overpriced MANZ. Also, if you gonna take a kombi weapon, take kombi skorcha. That thing is a portable heavy flamer. Its insane for its cost. Even marines are like WTFBBQ OMG I CANT PASS ALL 6 ARMOR SAVES OH EMPEROR SAVE ME

He also is an eternal warrior, which makes him the only usable Warboss against grey knights.

I will honestly recommend any ork player to try grotsnik at least once. Grotsnik is like the sly marbo of the orks. My only recommendations are rokkits on boyz and take kommandos instead of gazzy. Your nobs will do fine in CC without him and hes so expensive you can litterally afford a grotsnik kommando squad for his price.

Grotznik can be instant-deathed by Gk and all their weapons ignore FNP. Unless you really want those cyborks, I'd rather use a SAG, which drop pieplates of doom on GK.

necronsftw wrote:Okay goofy thanks for no help .

i think it was helpful... i deal with grey knights with dakka caus ewhen i throw boys at them i run out of boyz

I play battlewagon bash but if i'm playign gk i know i'm gonna lose if i rush in and chage so i shoow... alot. i usually field at least 6 rokkit buggies and at least 2 groups of 5 lootas, though lately i've been running 3 groups and if i have points left over i break the 5-15 rule and will make em like 6-7 per group if i have spare points.

I have had great luck shooting grey knights, i had read the codex before playign them for the firs ttime and figured assaulting wouldn't work in theory so i tried it in practice and charged right in... sure enough it was a bad idea so next game kept the wagons back and shot out, lootas and cannonz tore them up and since spread out he couldn't just charge a mass. and keep assaulting so i gummed him up with my grots and boys once he reached me bubblewraping my lootas and kannonz

ie boys w/ choppas weren't workign so more dakka

Jidmah wrote:
blah blah blah I don't play orks, zap guns don't autohit

most people (almost myself are in the tldr or "not interesting anymore" phase). Anyway, since you admit only one of us plays orks, please buy an aobr set and start orks immediately. They're really fun.
Read the rule book please. Zaap guns do autohit. If YMDC decides that GKs no longer have power weapons, would you play it that way too? I wouldn't. And if you're referring to the FAQ, well, that's a whole nother debate for another thread.

Jidmah wrote:

Terranarc wrote:I will honestly recommend any ork player to try grotsnik at least once. Grotsnik is like the sly marbo of the orks. My only recommendations are rokkits on boyz and take kommandos instead of gazzy. Your nobs will do fine in CC without him and hes so expensive you can litterally afford a grotsnik kommando squad for his price.

Grotznik can be instant-deathed by Gk and all their weapons ignore FNP. Unless you really want those cyborks, I'd rather use a SAG, which drop pieplates of doom on GK.

GKs have one attack each. He should be the last model you allocate to. With a squad of 15 or even 10, there should be a very low chance of him getting hit. And ofc (which is English for "of course") I meant snikrot, or whatever the character is that replaces the nob for 85 points. Why would you attach that mad dok character to kommandos? If I had said that I would attach abaddon to thousand sons, would you not have suspected anything wrong? But ofc, there are no other characters that are quite named like grotsnik and snikrot.

Also, just so you know, mathhammer isn't warhammer. Again, please actually play 40k before making mathhammer statements. More importantly, please use a calculator before posting mathhammer.
Now to correct your incorrect math:

Loota vs rhino

5[number of shots]*(1/3)[ballistic skill]*(1/2)[chance to glance and higher]*(1/2)[chance to get something good on the penetrate table]= 0.416666667
10 shots = 0.833333334
15 shots = 1.25

So not only do none of these numbers crunch out to 1.3, only 15 (aka rolling a 5 or a 6 for lootas on a d6) shots yield a little over one goodie on average. And yes I did give you the benefit of the doubt (to save you time reading and whats infinitely more valuable, my time writing) by not considering how glances only produce a good result on a 1/6 instead of 1/2. Now, since all 3 results have an equal chance of happening, your average loota result is 0.833333334.
(for information on what averages are, please refer here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Average ; you will find quickly that 5 lootas do not 'average' out to 1.3 goodie results)
I'm not quite sure what your level of education is (important as at least an elementary comprehension of basic math is required) but average is not definite especially when 5 shots just yield 1.25 good damage results assuming you rolled 5 or 6 for number of shots which cuts that probability down further. That being said, one does not always roll 5 or 6's for lootas. You will find this out quickly in your first game of warhammer when you field lootas.

Now, say I take 15 (which I do):
15 shots = 1.25
30 shots = 2.5
45 shots = 3.75

Now even if I roll a one for my number of shots, I'm getting, on average, 1.25 goodie results. Now, applying your logic and mindset, assuming I always roll a 5 or 6 to determine the number of shots, I would always be getting on average, 3.75 goodie rolls (immobilized, wrecked or explodes). But ofc this is unrealistic and I won't always get 3.75 immobilized - explodes results. I may get more, I may get none.

Now for points efficiency:
5 lootas = 75pts
15 lootas = 225pts

3x the price for 3x the chance of doing well. Not exactly a discount but whether or not you take 15 or 5 will just have to depend on the rest of your list.

Now I do apologize for hijacking your tread, necronsftw, but this man is quite the troll. I absolutely had to respond to his shenanigans.

Wow, now even going racist? Sometimes I really regret promising mannahin not to insult people on the forum again.

You also seem to not even get sarcasm when I beat you with it, and I really had to laugh when you couldn't even name the second most used character from the codex.

Wait, how was I racist? Please post the line where I was expressing prejudice against any nationality.
Perhaps you have difficulty reading because English is not your mother tongue, but it is not mine either.

Also, were you being sarcastic? I was certainly not. Why would you do that? The purpose of these forums are to help others. Then you were trolling the entire time?

EDIT: Also, please try not to derail this thread any further. I'm trying to compensate for your displayed incompetence in both English and elementary math but there is no reason for this thread to be hijacked any further.

There are several things in the Ork Dex that GKs hate, well all SMs hate, but GKs hate more because they have even fewer models.

1: Ghaz
2: Lootas
3: Kanwalls with 2 KFFs
4. Burnas in a Rolla BW (with KFF)....you don't even have to get out -> 10-15 flamer templates hurt
5: Suicide Buzzsaw Koptas that kill their mobility turn one

All of these units negate/diminish the effectiveness of purifier spam, either by negating Cleansing Flame or being resilient to 24" S7 shooting.

So, depending on your list, choose some of these units to augment it and GKs will be much less worrisome.

As for me, I run a Kanwall, with both Lootas and suicide Koptas, so GKs (even purifier spam GKs) don't scare me

oh man burnas in wagon is so amazing. infinite wounds ftw.

Why ghazgull though? I can see his EA being useful as well as one turn 2+ invul but he's still hit and wounded on 4's and the GK player could just allocate everything to him. Striking last in this case seems to be quite a bummer when hes not waghing.

terranarc wrote:Wait, how was I racist? Please post the line where I was expressing prejudice against any nationality.
Perhaps you have difficulty reading because English is not your mother tongue, but it is not mine either.

Also, were you being sarcastic? I was certainly not. Why would you do that? The purpose of these forums are to help others. Then you were trolling the entire time?

EDIT: Also, please try not to derail this thread any further. I'm trying to compensate for your displayed incompetence in both English and elementary math but there is no reason for this thread to be hijacked any further.

So let's see, I mixed up two abreviation (I bet you speak English to 10 year old kids at your LFGS instead of your native tongue) and you started insulting me for not being able to speak English, despite me living in the US for a big part of my childhood and speaking, reading and writing English just as well as German. Just because of the little flag next to may name. That's totally not racism.

And despite you trying very hard to hide the exact errors in your strategy I pointed out, you still are intent on me not even owning any orks, though I have more than 5k points sitting right in front of me. That was the sarcasm part btw.

If you can't cope with criticism on your obviously flawed strategy, you shouldn't log onto a forum. A forum isn't for helping people, a forum, per definition, is a place to discuss things. If you don't want to discuss anything you post, write e-mails to a dead e-mail address.

More of your flaws(which are actually on topic), you are obviously going to tone down by further insults:

1) Zzapguns do not autohit. The codex does not say so. Any apoc guns based on the Zzapgun do not autohit. All that even mentions auto-hitting is a little remark in the BRB, which has no connection to any other rules. The Ork FAQ explicitly says you have to roll to hit.
FYI:
Q. Is the roll for a Zzap Gun’s Strength made
before or after the target unit is chosen?
A. The roll is made after choosing a target unit,
but before rolling to hit.

2) Attaching Grotznik to kommandoz is a common strategy. Not a good one, but many people do it.

3) While I used the obviously wrong BS4 for lootaz because of your BS/DS bogus, the point still remains, 0.83 is still well enough. You pay three times the points to destroy a rhino three times over. Overkill does not do that much. Add to that the difficulty of actually getting 15 models in cover and get clear lanes of fire for a total of 30 models, you actually get worse per point. A unit of 15 lootaz does have a place, but it's not shooting rhinos. Plus I never said they are bad, I just said you can't hope for two units to wipe out an army.

4) The game. You lost it.

terranarc wrote:oh man burnas in wagon is so amazing. infinite wounds ftw.

Why ghazgull though? I can see his EA being useful as well as one turn 2+ invul but he's still hit and wounded on 4's and the GK player could just allocate everything to him. Striking last in this case seems to be quite a bummer when hes not waghing.

LOL...if you have to ask WHY to use Ghaz, I must question if you really do play Orks

The only reasons not to use Ghaz are as follows:
1. You need 2 KFFs (kanwall and some BW spam lists)
2. You really, really want a Biker Speedfreaks list (I don't know why, but someone might), meaning you need Wazdakka and a KFF mek
3. You don't have the points for him

4) You don't believe that Ghaz should be involved in every minor border skirmish in the universe and think that special characters like him and eldrad should be special, not mundane must-haves.

Redbeard wrote:4) You don't believe that Ghaz should be involved in every minor border skirmish in the universe and think that special characters like him and eldrad should be special, not mundane must-haves.

hehe...I am talking about tactical reasons, not fluff reasons, since this is a tactics forum

Alerian wrote:2. You really, really want a Biker Speedfreaks list (I don't know why, but someone might), meaning you need Wazdakka and a KFF mek

Why do you need a KFF in a biker list? They already have 4+ cover saves from being bikers.

Wow. That was a ton of text to read. To begin with this is challenging for the new ork player to understand who is correct on this, I dont want to buy 45 lootas then realize I only need 15. Or something along the lines of that. I assume that BW lists are the way to go. With those lootas what about 3 squads of 10, Do you think that will help spread the amount of shots to different targets. Ghaz and the nobs seems to be a very good hammer unit, using that as the front of my army, I feel like I need something in the other wagon, or maybe some buggies. This is up to the pros on this one.

Heffling wrote:

Alerian wrote:2. You really, really want a Biker Speedfreaks list (I don't know why, but someone might), meaning you need Wazdakka and a KFF mek

Why do you need a KFF in a biker list? They already have 4+ cover saves from being bikers.

This is very OT, but I will give one response to it, then we can get back on topic

See how it says Bikers/Speadfreaks?? If I meant pure bikers, I would have just said bikers...
Bikers/Speedfreaks is not all bikes, and the KFF is there for the trukks, buggies, etc.
So, while I personally do not like such lists, I included it as a reason for not taking Ghaz..that is all


Automatically Appended Next Post:

necronsftw wrote:Ghaz and the nobs seems to be a very good hammer unit, using that as the front of my army, I feel like I need something in the other wagon, or maybe some buggies. .

Nobs are a VERY, VERY bad choice against GKs, since GKs have force weapons standard.
Slugga Choppa Boys are bad against a Purifier GK list because of Cleansing Flame.

This leaves Kans, Dreads, and Ghaz as the only viable CC options against a GK Purifier Spam list.
Forutnate.y, Orks can shoot quite well with Shootas Boys, Lootas, and Burna Boy filled BWs.