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Grey Knight Grand Master 190
Storm Bolter / Nemesis Force Sword
Rad Grenades

7 Paladins 475
1 x Nemesis Force Sword / Storm Bolter
1 x Nemesis Daemon Hammer / Storm Bolter
1 x Nemesis Warding Stave / Storm Bolter
1 x Nemesis Force Halberd / Psycannon
1 x Nemesis Force Halberd / Storm Bolter
1 x Brotherhood Banner / Storm bolter
1 x Nemesis Daemon Hammer / Psycannon

10 Purifier Knights 283
1 x Nemesis Daemon Hammer / Storm Bolter
9x Nemesis Force Halberd / Storm Bolter
Psybolt Ammunition

5 Strike Knights 145
5 x Nemesis Force Sword / Storm Bolter
Rhino

5 Strike Knights 145
5 x Nemesis Force Sword / Storm Bolter
Rhino

Land Raider Crusader 255

Land Raider Crusader 255

Total: 1748


If the mission is Objectives, the Grand Master will make the two obvious hammers into Unyielding Anvils, otherwise he will most likely make them Hammers of Righteousness - this is not an army designed for subtlety, after all!

I am considering dropping the Paladins down to five, in the basis that either way they should be able to take out the majority of targets, and dropping them to five will allow them to fit into a regular Land Raider - not the most popular choice, but potentially useful for an army as sorely lacking in anti-tank as this. Of course the Purifiers can fit into a normal Raider anyway, but I like the flexibility of being able to take the Grand Master away from the Paladins.

Are two Land Raiders too much? Should the Paladins be cut entirely? Given the Grand Strategy route, do I have sufficient Scoring Units? Do I need more high-strength weaponry to stop other mech armies from messing me over? Is there anything else you can think of that can improve the list?

At the moment you are definitely lacking some ranged firepower. I could see dropping two paladins and one crusader, freeing up some points to give your purifiers a rhino to cruise in and some points for more anti tank.

Take Psycannons in your strike squads to shoot out the hatches and perhaps *cough* toss a Psyrfile dread or two in there for some ranged happiness. Because that furioso dread running at you will not be fun vs. your purifiers and well yeah...

I like the paladins and there are definitely uses for them and it gives some flavor vs. some of the cookie cutter builds coming out.

Your primary issue is that you lack ranged firepower. You have nothing that can shoot further than 24", which makes it difficult to suppress enemy vehicles while your Land Raiders get close enough to deliver their payload. It would be wise to consider replacing at least the Purifiers Land Raider Crusader with Godhammer patterns (2x TL Lascannons & TL Heavy Bolter), then finding points to take some Psycannons on the Purifiers, which would greatly improve your mid-range firepower and let you pop vechiles, then assault whatever comes out.

In all honesty it might just be better to field 2x Purifier units in Godhammers. Those Paladins are a HUGE expense, and Purifiers aren't much worse in combat than Paladins. They are less survivable, but just as deadly on the assault.

Grand Master (Rad Grenades) - 190
8 Purifiers (2x Psycannon, 5x Halberds, Hammer) - 227
10 Purifiers (2x Psycannon, 7x Halberds, Hammer) - 279
10 GKSS (2x Psycannon, Hammer, Rhino) - 270
10 GKSS (2x Psycannon, Hammer, Rhino) - 270
Land Raider - 255
Land Raider - 255
Total 1,746

Not ideal, but definitely more ranged firepower, and a larger body count to boot. Just my thoughts.

I like Aldarionn's version of the list far better. Persoinally I'd take Landraider Redeemers with psybolt and multimeltas as they are far better AT firepower for 5 more points and have far better anti-infantry fire too. I still beleive there is never a good reason to take a Landraider Godhammer in a Grey Knights list, Redeemer is simply the best config they have available due to Psybolt.

Also his list would allow you to swap the GM for a librarian as you are no longer dependant on the GM making units scoring as you have 20 scoring MEQs. A libby can turn those Purifiers into a real hammer.

The whole reason to trade the Crusaders for Godhammers is for 48" anti-tank firepower. Without it, the list cannot suppress enemy vehicles while the Purifiers advance. Normally I would advise taking Psyfleman Dreads to rectify the issue but with a dual Land Raider list the only way to fit them is to take Venerables, which are too expensive in this list.

A single Land Raider list might work well, with a Grandmaster and Purifiers in a Redeemer, then use the extra points for Psyfleman Dreads and another Strike Squad, but that completely removes the second melee unit rather than replacing it. Still, it's probably more competitive.

OK, I've been thinking about this, and think this might be a slightly more competitive build while maintaining the feel of the original list:

Grey knight Brother-Captain - 165
- Rad Grenades

5 Paladins - 325
- Halberd / Storm Bolter
- Halberd / Psycannon
- Brotherhood Banner / Psycannon
- Daemonhammer / Storm Bolter
- Falchions / Storm Bolter

8 Purifiers - 227
- 1 Daemonhammer / Storm Bolter
- 2 Psycannon
- 5 Halberd / Storm Bolter

10 Strike Knights - 260
- 2 Psycannon
- Rhino

10 Strike Knights - 260
- 2 Psycannon
- Rhino

Godhammer Land Raider - 255

Godhammer Land Raider - 255

Total: 1747

An alternative, based Aldarionn's advice, which maintains the core of the army but has a little more anti-tank:

Grey knight Brother-Captain - 165
- Rad Grenades

8 Purifiers - 247
- 1 Daemonhammer / Storm Bolter
- 2 Psycannon
- 5 Halberd / Storm Bolter
- Psybolt Ammo

10 Strike Knights - 270
- 2 Psycannon
- Justicar has Daemonhammer
- Rhino

10 Strike Knights - 270
- 2 Psycannon
- Justicar has Daemonhammer
- Rhino

10 Strike Knights - 270
- 2 Psycannon
- Justicar has Daemonhammer
- Rhino

Godhammer Land Raider - 255

Dreadnought - 135
- 2 x Twin Autocannon
- Psybolt Ammo

Dreadnought - 135
- 2 x Twin Autocannon
- Psybolt Ammo

Total: 1747

I think the second list is the one I'm more likely to take. I was also considering taking dual-Stormraven, but I'm somewhat worried by how vulnerable they are. Would a dual-Raven list be viable?

The second list is definitely better than the first, but I don't know that you need the 3rd Strike Squad. Also, you don't need a Godhammer with the Dreadnoughts in the list. Using that as a base, here's what I would do:

Grandmaster (Rad Grenades) - 190
Vindicare Assassin - 145
10 Purifiers (4x Psycannon, 5x Halberd, Hammer, Razorback w/ Psybolt) - 345
10 GKSS (2x Psycannon, Hammer, Rhino) - 270
10 GKSS (2x Psycannon, Hammer, Rhino) - 270
Land Raider Redeemer (Multi-Melta, Psybolt) - 260
Dreadnought (2x TL Autocannon, Psybolt) - 135
Dreadnought (2x TL Autocannon, Psybolt) - 135
Total 1,750

There were 50 points left over at the end, so I gave the Purifiers a Razorback. They will deploy in the Redeemer, but the Razorback can tail your infantry. That way it provides fire support, and a getaway transport if one of your units loses their transport and gets whittled down enough to fit. The other option would be to replace the Assassin and the Razorback with a Venerable Psyfleman Dread, which is a lot more durable but less psychologically threatening.

There is really no reason to ever take a Brother Captain. It's worth the extra 25 points to take a Grand Master for Grand Strategy, but if you don't want to spend the extra points just downgrade him to an inquisitor with Rad Grenades. That would give you an extra 150 to spend in this list (perhaps on a small Strike Squad to go in that Razorback, and a better turret weapon for it). Hope that helps!

I too am steadily working on my army which is very similar to this. I in no way think purifiers pack the same punch in combat as paladins. Firstly, the extra weapon skill is fantastic when facing other specialised assault units and secondly, even a 5 plus invulnerable is a huge bonus in an assault. Then there is the obvious two wounds, which cannot be negated as easily in assault as they can be in shooting, by instant death and the like. So if you want a hammer unit I would suggest the paladins.

The issue is not whether Paladins are better than Purifiers. Model for model, Paladins are stronger hands down, but they cost more than twice as much per model. The issue is whether or not you have enough points to buy a PROPER Paladin unit, and whether or not Purifiers would be better for the investment you can make.

5 properly equipped Paladins as a base unit cost 275 points. Adding Psycannons boosts this price tag up to 315, which is already 20 points more expensive than the Purifiers fully equipped with twice as many weapons. Model for model they have the same number of attacks, though the Paladins will have more Power Weapons. The kicker though is that Paladins need to have differentiated wargear to be effective, which means only two of those models will have Halberds if you don't intend to spend extra points.

Consider these two units (Numbers in Parentheses represent values when charging):

5 Paladins - 315
-Psycannon, Halberd
-Psycannon, Sword
-Halberd
-Sword
-Hammer

2+/4++/5++ save, 10 wounds, 8 Psycannon shots, 6 Storm Bolter shots, 4(6) Halberd attacks, 4(6) Sword attacks, 2(3) Hammer attacks, WS5.

Average close combat specs against MEQ's:
Charging - 2.67 kills at Initiative 6, 2.67 kills at Initiative 4, 1.66 kills at initiative 1. Total kills 7
Not Charging - 1.78 kills at Initiative 6, 1.78 kills at Initiative 4, 1.11 kills at Initiative 1. Total kills 4.67

10 Purifiers (4x Psycannon, 5x Halberd, 1x Hammer) - 295

3+ save, 10 wounds, 8(16) Psycannon shots, 12 Storm Bolter shots, 10(15) Halberd attacks, 8(12) regular attacks, 2(3) Hammer attacks, WS4.

Average close combat specs against MEQ's:
Charging - 5 kills at Inititaive 6, 1.32 kills at Inititaive 4, 1.25 kills at Initiative 1. Total kills 7.57.
Not Charging - 3.34 kills at Initiative 6, 0.88 kills at Initiative 4, 0.833 kills at Initiative 1. Total kills 5.05.

This is just a very basic numbers assessment. It assumes both units use Hammerhand in combat since Purifying Flame is more or less effective depending on the size and armor save of the opposing unit. The Purifiers clearly have a ranged advantage, and they have about an extra half a kill advantage in melee over the Paladins. The Paladins are more durable, but the Purifiers are vastly superior against hordes. The Paladins could trade the Swords for Halberds but they would lose a large percentage of their durability considering the would no longer be individually equiped and they would lose their 4++ on two models. Against most infantry types, the durability issue is negligible since the Purifiers will kill half a unit before they get to attack anyway, and return Power Fist attacks will Instant Death the Paladins (though they will get a save).

My final assessment would be that the Paladins are a better defensive unit, and with Draigo or a Grandmaster they are easily one of the best scoring units in the game. Shifting them off an objective is nearly impossible without a real commitment and they do have considerable firepower even on the move. Purifiers are a much stronger offensive unit, and they are much more versatile against various unit types.

Both units benefit significantly when being lead by a commander with Rad Grenades, and the price of each unit is similar enough that they are interchangeable. That said, pick whichever unit fits your style of play. If you tend to rush forward and jump headfirst into the fray, consider Purifiers, because they will be a better Swiss Army Knife in that situation, capable of dealing with a broad range of threats. If you prefer a defensive style of play, moving onto objectives and holding them, consider the Paladins, because they can hold the line against just about anything and will serve as a massive distraction that your opponent will concentrate on, possibly to your benefit. Just keep in mind that this style requires a Grandmaster or Draigo to make them Scoring.

I was not refering to paladins being better against an average unit since the hammer unit or 'deathstar' is not primarily intended for that. Yes purifiers have a wider range of viable opponents but against designated combat units the purifiers tend to fall down. Paladins are meant to go after the hardest hitting element of the opponents army. I assumed the op wanted a dedicated combat unit because of his description of them as a 'hammer unit'.

How do the Purifiers "Fall Down" against dedicated combat units? Many such units have weapons that will insta-kill a Paladin. For instance, Assault Terminators, who can absorb the damage output of Purifiers and Paladins equally well, and their return Thunder Hammer swings will cause more wounds to the Paladins than they will to the Purifiers. If they are armed with Lightning Claws, a greater concentration of higher Initiative attacks will serve better than the durability of the Paladins. In that case, the best Defense is a good Offense.

Consider both of the above units against 5 TH/SS Terminators. Also assume that both units assault, and both units use Hammerhand.

Paladins - 0.88 Kills at Initiative 6, 0.88 Kills at Initiative 4, 0.55 Kills at Initiative 1. Total Kills 2.31. Return kills 1.47.

Purifiers - 1.65 Kills at Initiative 6, 0.67 Kills at Initiative 4, 0.55 Kills at Initiative 1. Total Kills 2.87. Return kills 2.23

These numbers are a little deceptive since the Paladins are 2 wound models. I included percentages for 4++ and 5++ saves, as well as intelligent wound allocation. Those 1.47 kills would actually work out to be 2-6 wounds, meaning the Paladins only win combat by 0.31 wounds, and only if the second or third Paladins are either not wounded or pass their saves. There is actually a possibility that three Paladins could all suffer wounds (it was 2.7 wounds before saves, so I allocated 2 wounds to 4++ saves and 0.7 wounds to a 5++ save), and a bad round of saves could gut the unit and see them lose combat by almost 4 wounds. The Purifiers statistically win or draw combat, and while they lose 2-3 models they can take them on Psycannons and not reduce their combat effectiveness by all that much.

In the above scenario the Paladins have about a 50/50 chance to be ahead 1 model, or tied model for model, and there is a very minor possibility that they could be behind 1 model. Either way, it's nowhere near as certain for the Paladins as it is for the Purifiers, and the Purifiers are more likely to clean up on the next round without taking further wounds.

As I said, unit selection is not anywhere near as cut and dried as you suggest. There are too many different melee oriented units out there for me to run numbers against all of them, but I can say that against anything that can Insta-Kill a Paladin, the Purifiers will be better with no question, which encompasses many of the "Hardest hitting elements of the opponents army". Select the unit that best fits your style of play (or based on coolness factor if you prefer), and if you build your list to support it and use it properly, I don't think you will be disappointed with either Paladins or Purifiers.

Yes, I agree that both are very efficient units. I personally would say that the +1 ws combined with the invulnerable save would be more beneficial in a comba with death company,m for example. Whilst yes, th/ss terminators are more efficient against paladins, I dissagree that most assault units have the capability to instant death paladins with all of their attacks. Bear in mind that with no instant deaths their survivability goes up exponentially, whilst putting out close to the damage output of purifiers shown by your calculations.

I avoided running numbers for Death Company because they vary so wildly from one instance to the next. Furious Charge makes them significantly worse when they assault, and FNP cuts down on the viability of the non Power Weapon attacks from the Purifiers. Death Company can also range from units of 5 to 30, and they can take Jump Packs, Land Raiders/Stormravens or Rhinos, so there is really not a good way to judge an "average" unit. That said, I don't see many Death Company lists out there these days. A friend of mine occasionally runs a Death Company in a Land Raider with a Reclusiarch, but he is about the only one I've seen in my area. Most stick to RAS units or Pred Spam.

With no easy way to compare the two, I will say that there are likely situations where Paladins are going to be better, and situations where Purifiers are going to be better, but it depends entirely on how the Death Company are equipped, and if they are lead by a character. Lead by a Reclusiarch, even just a few Power Weapons in the unit are enough to wipe out most 10 man Power Armor wearing units at Initiative 5, and in reality they will do a pretty big number on Paladins as well since they lack Storm Shields.

My friend runs the following:

Reclusiarch - 130
9 Death Company (2x Power Weapons, Power Fist) - 235

Charging against a unit of Purifiers the Power Weapons and Reclusiarch alone are enough to cause 10.24 kills, or enough to wipe the Purifiers out. Even the Halberd attacks at Initiative 6 are not enough to prevent this, and a savvy opponent will ensure the Reclusiarch doesn't end up in combat with a model carrying a Force Weapon. Against Paladins, the numbers are significantly more complicated and depend on how you allocate the wounds. If you concentrate the power weapon attacks on the 4++ save models, you are almost guaranteed to lose both, but the rest of the unit comes out mostly unscathed. If you spread the Power Weapon attacks evenly, you are almost guaranteed to have a wound on everyone, and you have a decent chance of at least one Paladin ending up dead. Here is the spread I used.

The chart below represents the 5 differently equipped Paladins. Abbreviations are as follows:
PC = Psycannon
HB = Halberd
SW = Sword
DH = Daemon Hammer
SB = Storm Bolter

Power Weapon attacks concentrated on models with Swords
PC/SW - 2.17 unsaved wounds
PC/HB - 0.67 unsaved wounds
SB/SW - 1.83 unsaved wounds
SB/HB - 0.79 unsaved wounds
SB/DH - 0.5 unsaved wounds

Total wounds caused - 5.96

Power Weapon attacks spread evenly across the unit
PC/SW - 1.17 unsaved wounds
PC/HB - 1.17 unsaved wounds
SB/SW - 1.50 unsaved wounds
SB/HB - 1.39 unsaved wounds
SB/DH - 1.07 unsaved wounds

Total wounds caused - 6.3

This chart does NOT include the 3 Power Fist attacks the Death Company have. They will cause an additional 2.18 wounds, potentially killing up to 3 additional Paladins outright. Taking them on the models with Swords would be the best idea, but it's possible one could be forced onto another model. This means you will likely lose between 1 and 3 Paladins to these attacks, potentially wiping out the unit depending on how many are left after the Power Weapon attacks and how wound allocation went.

Death Company with a Reclusiarch stand an excellent chance of wiping out Paladins and Purifiers alike, or at the very least crippling them. Paladins stand a chance of having at least one model survive if you roll well enough, but it's no guarantee either way. Then again, as I said, Death Company come in a lot of shapes and sizes so you can never be sure.

Edit: A note to the OP - My apologies for hijacking your thread. I didn't mean to turn this into a Paladin V Purifier discussion thread, but I figured since you seem to like both units it might be beneficial for you to see the numbers. I hope I didn't bring this thread too far off track.

I too appologize. I was only intending to illustrate that purifiers will not always be a better option than paladins. If you like one more than the other then they those are the ones to go far, since there are evidently pros and cons for either choice. I do think that this discussion has highlighted specific strengths and weaknesses of both paladins and purifiers and i hope it will help you decide which to include in your army.

As I was running the numbers I was actually rather surprised at how close the two units are in killing power, and it gave me a better grasp on how Paladins will stand up to different units compared to Purifiers. It also makes me want to try out 5 Paladins in a Redeemer with either Draigo or a Grandmaster with Rad Grenades. Either way it sounds like it could be a solid core to build a list around.

In my last list suggestion, you could feasibly replace the 10 Purifiers with 5 Paladins and have a few points left over for Master Crafting and whatnot, and the list would basically remain unchanged, but play a little differently. You would also have a few points left over and could either give the unit a Brotherhood Banner, or tweak things around a bit and take Psybolt Ammo on the Strike Squads.

Another viable option would be to ditch the Vindicare Assassin, replace the Redeemer with a Crusader, and bump that Paladin unit up to 6 strong with an Apothecary and Brotherhood Banner, which would seriously increase their survivability and damage output. Here's an example:

Grandmaster (Rad Grenades) - 190
6 Paladins - 480
-Apothecary, Sword
-Psycannon, Banner
-Psycannon, Halberd
-MC Halberd
-Halberd
-MC Hammer
10 GKSS (2x Psycannon, Hammer, Rhino) - 270
10 GKSS (2x Psycannon, Hammer, Rhino) - 270
Land Raider Crusader (Multi-Melta, Psybolt) - 270
Dreadnought (2x TL Autocannon, Psybolt) - 135
Dreadnought (2x TL Autocannon, Psybolt) - 135
Total 1,750

Unfortunately there aren't enough points that can be salvaged from anywhere to ad a 7th model to the unit, or it would certainly be worthwhile. I suppose you could ditch the Apothecary, but that's what makes the unit tough enough to completely shrug off anti-infantry fire and anything in melee that's not a Power Weapon.

Aldarionn wrote:Edit: A note to the OP - My apologies for hijacking your thread. I didn't mean to turn this into a Paladin V Purifier discussion thread, but I figured since you seem to like both units it might be beneficial for you to see the numbers. I hope I didn't bring this thread too far off track.

Not at all - on the contrary, I appreciate seeing the numbers, as it does clarify the situation. In particular, it has demonstrated to me that you don't need as many paladins as I initially assumed for the unit to be very respectably strong. I think I may go the Paladin route, mainly due to the fact that they don't sacrifice combat prowess for ranged firepower - the two units get the same number of psycannon shots when on the move but the Paladins don't lose Force attacks to do so. The fact that five Paladins are cheaper, monetarily, than ten Purifiers also definitely helps...

I am however still very tempted by the twin-Raider plan, and I'm trying to figure out a build which works for that. I may end up having to run Draigo, to put the Paladins as Troops and allow me to remove one of the Strike Squads.