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Overall, it might just be because I play mostly versus SM, BA or SW (armies that my friend has) but yesterday, with the authorization of me BA friend, I proxied some of my sluggas as shootas.

Army Lists can be seen in the spoiler section





So I am not totally sure about all the numbers in his list (sergeant, maybe more PF, etc.) but the general idea is there.

Back to my questions, I found out that my shootas weren't effective at all. I shot a lot, but the only things I managed to almost kill were the scouts on which I shot around 30 to 40 shots only to get 4 deads. After that, when I shot at either the assault space marines or the death company, the 3+ save and FNP made my shootas become meaningless. I mean, I shot twice at his troops (once the 5 man squad with 48 shots, and once in the death company with 42 shots) and only managed to do one wound. In the end, my CC was the only thing that really did some damage which means sluggas were more effective.

So basically, are shootas currently ineffective for me because of the SM armies I am going against? Would they be more effective aggainst other armies like guard, eldar or nids?

You simply have to keep in mind that due to an ork boys low I that the extra attacks will not matter to that large a degree.

Would the extra attack from sluggas have done that much against death company?

power armor plus fnp was the issue, against anythign without power armor (and fnp making it even rougher)

I find it easiest to go shoota boys in foot slogging armies, and slugga/choppa in BW bash

jacetms87 wrote:You simply have to keep in mind that due to an ork boys low I that the extra attacks will not matter to that large a degree.

Would the extra attack from sluggas have done that much against death company?

Well, it could've done more than the shootas since they have a 4+ chance to hit instead of 5+.

Shooting against space marines will never be awesome, but it's better than your pistol.

Choppa mobs have their place, and so do Shoota mobs. It really depends on your army.

Even in Close Combat though, Choppas aren't that great... especially after the first round when you don't have Furious Charge anymore. It's usually the Power Klaw that does the most damage, and you'lll have that regardless of whether or not the Orks have Sluggas or Shootas.

The basic shoota is S4, which is awesome, because every hit has a decent chance of causing a wound on a MEQ. You're basically just trying to dish out as much firepower as possible and then hoping your opponent rolls a lot of 1s on his save.

Even if you kill only 1 or 2 marines with your Shootas, that's 1 or 2 marines you probably wouldn't be able to kill with your Sluggas.

Weaker stuff goes down really easy of course, and big models can just die from the sheer amount of firepower.

G00fySmiley wrote:power armor plus fnp was the issue, against anythign without power armor (and fnp making it even rougher)

I find it easiest to go shoota boys in foot slogging armies, and slugga/choppa in BW bash

Ok, yeah I thought so, I didnt even try to engage the DC in CC because of the deadly combination (it was seize ground and he lost all the capturing unit he had, so I ran for his objective). I guess I'll need to gain some experience aggasint other type of armies

Point for point, shoota boyz will outshoot space marines, and do it on the move. It's throwing FNP on top of the 3+ armor that makes them not nearly as effective as you would like. 3+ armor with FNP is actually more likely to negate the wound than 2+ armor is, so it's like shooting extra tough terminators. So shootas are an excellent torrent of fire weapon, but when you shoot at a unit that is highly resistant to torrent of fire weapons, it has predictably poor results.

Burna Boyz are one of the correct answers against Death company... 12 Burna boyz firing their burnas will statically kill one terminator or 3+ FNP marine per model hit by the flamer... So if you hit 3 models with the flame template from your vehicle, then you can expect 3 terminators or 3+ FNP models to die...

Complex Meganobz and Complex Nobz are also good for the power weapon attacks they dish out...

yeah, burna boyz wasn't on my to buy list since I am going for a kan wall list (didn't use them for that match since he was used to see me with a lot of walkers and decided to mix it up)

Nobz did a somewhat great job, but I need to modify more of them to put PKs on them, I have a total of 4 nobz with pk right now, but I am working on customizing 3 or 4 more Pks from the bits I have

Murrdox wrote:
Choppa mobs have their place, and so do Shoota mobs. It really depends on your army.

This. A thousand times this. Neither is better or worse. Its always 'it depends' on what type of army your playing.

Culler wrote:3+ armor with FNP is actually more likely to negate the wound than 2+ armor is

Could you show the numbers behind this?

Shootas are great but yeah like people have said, 3+ and FnP really ruins it. But I mean, it would ruin mass bolter/lasgun fire too.
I have a deathguard and a shooty ork army and I would hate to try to kill plague marines with shootas. I always take special weapons in my boyz squad, and rokkits at that. Big shootas are redundant but rokkits are nice for that random marine kill or random transport popage. Try giving your boyz 2 rokkits each. Though since you're at 25 boyz, might as well add in 5 more for 3 rokkits. Or cut down on 5 for extra points?
The rokkits in this specific case would've ignored their FnP and armor save. Good luck hitting though... my boyz apparently just shoot the rokkit into the air for pretty lights every time I tell them to kill something. Damn boyz, sometimes I wish I could inflict a wound on them with bosspole just to make them shoot forward.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

lindsay40k wrote:

Culler wrote:3+ armor with FNP is actually more likely to negate the wound than 2+ armor is

Could you show the numbers behind this?

Huh... thats actually quite interesting... just out of curiosity, I'll google calculator it.
2+ = .167 or 16.7% chance of failing.
3+ = .33 or 33% chance of failing
3+ with FnP = (2/3)+((1/3)*(1/2)) = 16.7% chance of failing.

Can someone confirm or correct me? I'm in low IQ mode after a day of work.

lindsay40k wrote:

Culler wrote:3+ armor with FNP is actually more likely to negate the wound than 2+ armor is

Could you show the numbers behind this?

chance to fail 2+ save is 1/6
chance to fail 3+ save is 1/3
chance to fail FNP is 1/2

To determine the chance to fail 3+ armor and to fail FNP save is a multiplication problem: (1/3 * 1/2) = 1/6

Statistically they are equal.... about 16.66%

-Myst

Mysticaria wrote:

lindsay40k wrote:

Culler wrote:3+ armor with FNP is actually more likely to negate the wound than 2+ armor is

Could you show the numbers behind this?

chance to fail 2+ save is 1/6
chance to fail 3+ save is 1/3
chance to fail FNP is 1/2

To determine the chance to fail 3+ armor and to fail FNP save is a multiplication problem: (1/3 * 1/2) = 1/6

Statistically they are equal.... about 16.66%

-Myst

My bad, that's what I get for using decimals instead of fractions, just a rounding error.

Yes they are awesome, next time you pelt gaunts or anything else weak you'll see.

also, i think that 20 orks with 40/60 attacks isnt gonna benifit much by the jump to 60/80.

The Nob doesnt get an extra attack with the klaw for the slugga, so no difference there, which seems to be the main lump of kills often against the big stuff.