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You'd be living under a rock, to not notice the news from GW, and more importantly, at least from a internet point of view, the back lash from fans around the world.

Many people have discussed the idea of writing letters, petitions, boycotts and other strategies in a bid to bring about a change of value at GW. I think everyone agrees, these will most likely end in failure.

Then it occurred to me, there may be another way.

Right now, GW enjoys ALOT of advertising through internet forums, like Dakka Dakka, tabletopgamingnews, etc. and in addition to the free advertising, the online retailers (who have been really stiffed!) also, appear, to take it on the chin, and even though the guys seem to hate the situation, they still tow the line and even go as far as offering new products from GW....as if nothings happened.

What would happen, if forums like Dakka, and gaming news sites like Tabletopgamingnews, coolminiornot, etc...all stopped transmitting GW news, discussion of GW products....in fact, they stopped supporting GW full stop. I'm talking over-night...finished.

What would happen if the online stockists, and independant retailers ALL said, feth you GW, take your product and go jump....all at the same time. No more product sales, no more purchases. In fact, every independant store disallowed the playing of GW games.

I mean, surely something like this would catch their attention ALOT quicker than any letter, petition, one man boycott or Face Book attack. I do believe this would cripple GW OVERNIGHT! they would go dark. The strategic decisions they have made in the past, and recently, would hit them like a frieght train...for example, because they have made no effort to set up their own independant forums, they would have little or no way of reaching out to people, unless those people went to the GW website or physically visited their stores. And lets not even talk about the massive loss of revenue if ALL the online and independant retailers simply stopped buying stock.

Even if the forums and retailers only committed to doing this for 1 week....the effects on GWs business would be dramatic.

I really believe this would be a way of getting GW back listening to their market, and showing them the market is KING, and they will be dictated to by market pressures.

I believe all it would take, is for each major Forum to agree to a 1 week "no GW" stance. But even more damaging, I believe if a decision could be made by as many retailers as possible to agree to not purchase or create new orders for 1 week, we will see a change.

What do you guys think?

In particular I would love to hear what Maelstrom, Wayland and Dark Sphere amongst others thin of this idea....could it work in reality? if not, why not? and is it worth a try? just to gain back even a little control of your businesses.

In the meantime, the forums could support another game...perhaps have a Warmachine week, or something similar to BoW Infinity week. Every effort could be made to support something other than GW.

The same could happen in the independant retail stores....during the GW BAN, they could promote something else, offer discounts or incentives to customers to change to the competition.

If we want change, we, as a collective, have to think big. GW is too large for us to rely on common sense and reason to win the day. Right now they have control, to win back control of our hobby, and more importantly for the retailers, the RIGHT to sell to whom-ever they desire, we have to band together and get as dirty as GW.

GW have limited the growth potential of retailers around the world. This could be stopped today....what do you say?

Ey man.

While I see this working for any other minis company I dont see this working for GW

as explained in my thread, GW just has its claws in people

Mageknight and Ex Illis folded due to bad rules and cost issues.

GW has survived both due to a deeply devoted fanbase.

Heck if GW posted that theyre going to be going bankrupt by 2030 if you dont send em 20 dollars now...PEOPLE WILL BE MAILING that 20 stat!

this is going to be the same fanbase thats going to ridicule what youre saying in about a few minutes.

sorry man :(

It's a good idea but I don't see many retailers joining a boycott.

GW is big business. If retailers suffer sustained dip in a certain product ranges sales then they would have to reassess. Other than this I don't see retailers dropping a profitable range for the sake of the minority of vocal fans.

GW pricing may still be high but its still cheaper from an internet discounter!

What do the independents think of the constant price rises/sales restrictions? I would think that the price hikes alone must be hitting their sales even when they offer discounts.
Any independents willing to say anything?

In all seriousness, it might work. I was thinking more manipulating their Shares so the company looks bad and takes a divebomb. Sure it's almost an instant Fatality, but they might wake up at how easy it is to throw a company into the water with some cinder blocks.

OH NOES! not a whole week boycott! Compared to the month boycotts last time that did nothing and no one followed, this week long one is much more productive...

Shorter means more damage right?

Make sure to let me know when you get this worked out so I can make sure to place a large order with GW and Forgeworld that week.

.... potato

Seriously though. My point really revolves around the control that one company has over a wider retail enviroment. Whats scary, is that companies have handed that control to GW, and are now feeling the effects of doing so.

People may laugh at my idea, even the retailers may raise me on a burning cross. However, the point still stands, if not my way...how are you going to take back your businesses?

The forums, I can see that would be a difficult one, and it may not yeild that much of a result, other than to give people "cold turkey".....but I do believe that events like BoW Infinity week really do a lot to help promote new games, and this in itself could be used as a whipping stick against GW....

What can it hurt to try?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nkelsch wrote:OH NOES! not a whole week boycott! Compared to the month boycotts last time that did nothing and no one followed, this week long one is much more productive...

Shorter means more damage right?

Make sure to let me know when you get this worked out so I can make sure to place a large order with GW and Forgeworld that week.

No, that's a fair point. I wasn't aware of this ever happening. However, as I just said, I believe the real effect would come from the retailers.....a GW boycott on the forums would just be another sting in the ass.

Delephont wrote:You'd be living under a rock, to not notice the news from GW, and more importantly, at least from a internet point of view, the back lash from fans around the world.

Okay, from the Ork under a rock... humor me. What exactly are we protesting?

Erm DakkaDakka is primarily a 40K forum. I'd rather continue updating my 40k Plog(s) and Fanfic(s) and enjoying other peoples tbh. At least this part of the hobby is 'free'...

Solorg wrote:

Delephont wrote:You'd be living under a rock, to not notice the news from GW, and more importantly, at least from a internet point of view, the back lash from fans around the world.

Okay, from the Ork under a rock... humor me. What exactly are we protesting?

Wat duz da 'umie 'ate? Wat iz we gonna fight Gork an' Mork fer?

Delephont wrote:People may laugh at my idea, even the retailers may raise me on a burning cross. However, the point still stands, if not my way...how are you going to take back your businesses?

When your business is exclusively the selling of other people's goods you don't have a lot of control of it.

They will set the prices, they will dictate the terms, they will develop the new products. The only way for a retailer to take control of their business is to develop their own product, as many large retailers do, or to find some way of adding value beyond the goods that they sell.

Scott-S6 wrote:

Delephont wrote:People may laugh at my idea, even the retailers may raise me on a burning cross. However, the point still stands, if not my way...how are you going to take back your businesses?

When your business is exclusively the selling of other people's goods you don't have a lot of control of it.

They will set the prices, they will dictate the terms, they will develop the new products. The only way for a retailer to take control of their business is to develop their own product, as many large retailers do, or to find some way of adding value beyond the goods that they sell.

Totally agree!

I think, as a business strategy, (and I could be wrong) it seems that most retailers see that a certain product is selling well, and naturally try to capitalise on it, in most cases promoting it at the expense of other products. Perhaps this is where part of the problem lies. I have noticed shops like Maelstrom actively promoting other products, in fact, you have to look quite hard (compared to certain stores!) to see that they actually sell GW products.

In contrast, Arcane Miniatures doesn't sell GW products at all. It would be interesting to hear from those guys, because as a gaming supplies company, they seem to have the right idea.

I think a more effective way would be to just promote as many non GW games / miniatures. People can stick to GW games without giving them a penny. Take what is good from GW and leave what is bad. They make so little money from the rules that they would notice if people only bought codex or rulebooks.

It's an interesting idea you have Delephont. I have clue as to whether or not it would work, or even if it's feasibly possible.

From what I've read over the past few days though, is that the biggest problem with a movement such as the one you're suggesting seems to be that the gaming community cannot get on the same page at once.

I will be watching how this progresses as I have been, and sincerely hope that something will work to slap some sense into GW enough that it brings about a positive change in their business practices.

So 11 responses to a proposal of change, and of those, three are basically pi$$ takes.

I guess I got my answer......, it seems that people do not want change, or more to the point, do not wish to even discuss it.

Thats fair enough. Afterall it's far easier to shake your fist at the sky and tear out your hair, then to get up and actually do something. Seems like GW wins again, how disappointing and yet....unsurprising.

MODS, you may as well lock or delete this, I think this social experiment has more than proved its point.

Delephont.

I had stopped buying GW products some time ago due to already ridiculous prices. To cap it all my two lads have also stopped buying anything GW related. After telling their friends parents how expensive it was to set up they too walk past GW with pockets full of money that is going elsewhere.

The veteran spend doesn't mean anything to GW but the new blood is key to their continued success. I have popped into store and they have asked where my kids and their friends have been. Their absence (of sales) is noted.

I am happy to quietly deny GW my pound in any way I can, if things change I will certainly take another dive into GW's range, until then I have so many more gaming options available to me.

Whether a retailer I purchase from promotes and sells GW or not is irevelevent. That I am buying something other than GW is a sign to the seller, that more people are ignoring the GW option is a sign to the seller.

I don't call what I am doing an active boycott I have just made my choice and gotten on with it with the minimum of fuss, this seems to be something that is often hard to do.

Well, most of these gaming forums would die. They're GW-game centric, and Dakka without 40k or Fantasy is pretty much a few subforums that don't get much traffic, with some games getting occasional mentions. A lot of webstores would go under as well, as GW is their bread and butter. Some sites and stores would still stick around, but they'd feel it. GW's a major player, and the backbone of a lot of gaming communities.

Its been some years since I last bought a GW product (whenever they released Devlan mud?) and I've seen GW close shops, reduce staffing to unworkable levels, and see falling profits every year. None of these are indicative of a successful company full of win. Seems my boycott is working.

Delephont , i have noticed something really scary that only started this week. 4chan has been flooded with warhammer threads , supported by ( omg really? ) really competent OP.

Can it really be GW is using 4chan to advertise warhammer? Cant be a crazy coincidence?

Still not sure what we're talking about. Reread the thread and there are no specifics. Are we protesting an end to metal? A move to resin? The latest price increase?

Seriously?

Your best bet is to center the "Protest" to just stop buying GW products, telling all of your friends about this weeks debacle, and to continue to send a few letters to the company in regards to two or three basic issues that you have about it. (I/E In regards to the price, I am writing to tell you that the price has just risen past my and my gaming clubs budget. We cannot afford to play this game in its current form. OR In regards to reducing your overhead, you neglected to factor in that the product is so expensive now that my sales of your product has reduced to ZERO. I now have a shelf stocked full of your product that my customers have collectivly decided they do not want.)

Selective b!@$ing won't work. no one gives a gak. What exactly did they do to P!@# you off, and nothing about "Oh, they cost too much, and Matt Ward killled baby Jervis."
What would really work is to just go play any number of other games out there that deserve your attention. Sadly, GW has decided they don't want it anymore, so oblige them. After a couple of letters, you don't hear from them? Yeah, you speak with your wallet.

Currently, my order of Cutlass stuff showed up on my doorstep, I have a gak load of PP stuff, and about three rooms full of GW stuff that need a new home. It's a hard world when your favorite pasttime pees in your face, but TBH, I'm getting ready to move and I could do to get rid of some of the countless minis that I'll never really get to.

If anyone wants to know, Infinity, PP, FOW ( even if they want to pull the same sort of bullgak) OP games, historicals, superhero, skermish, and any other game can use the attention.
With the Cutlass stuff, I have went back to looking hard at third fourth, and fifth levels of different gaming and minis companies. There are countless ones to choose from.

Found a game called Golgo Island, found another one in Cutlass, found some Star Moguals, that quite honestly look EXACTLY like the old RT days, plus you can get Mel and the Serenity crews as well...

Yeah, FEK 'em...

Boycott for the rest of the year with your wallet, and go find a different one to play for the rest of the year. That will revolve the company into damage control spin or they continue to ignore the issue, and watch them sweat a little as the percentages on the stock drop.

When you see a newb go into the shop and even start to picking up a GW product, tell them what you know, tell thier parents, tell thier friends of the current issues and let them choose for themselves. I had it happen yesterday, and I almost had a dogpile of players on the poor kid. He put the box down like someone just smacked his hand or something, and ended up picking out some other Reaper minis. I didn't even get the conversation going, just mentioned the new issues, and then there was a... heated discussion with some pretty rabid... er... former fans. You let a few of those parents know wth that GW is doing to thier precious children, and see how dangerous a Mad MILF can get. There are some things that they just won't slip in thier case.



My new game is Cutlass. Pirates that I can use from the standard GW figures, and add in the rest of the range to have some realy good gaming. Looking into some ways to accent it with the Warhammer Quest tiles, and even more, digging into the resin and styro dungeon stuff for some pieces of eight.

Along with the ships I'm looking at, Cutlass can be augmented with other Pirate ranges, as well.

Along with Cutlass, I had a batch of wierd war guys in a box, and my Pulp City stuff that I've picked up. Might be a good time to get them out...


Boycott with your wallet. Don't buy anything for the rest of the year, and let them either feel the pain, or continue to increase themselves out of a market.


Point on? You take your pick on why they pissed you off with.

Here are some of mine. ( yes... SOME.)

First issue for me was the internal self depreciationg of the product. ( Why my army continues to grow, but is rendered insolvant, regardless of the cost and whatever units you augment them with.) ( Why did the rules change and the once favored squad of the month is now a pile of gak, and was removed from the army.) ( Why did GW decide arbitrarily that thier rules set was so bad that they needed to revamp it to one that was even worse.) ( Why the product wasn't supported.) ( Why the prices continue to raise, while the product reduces.) (Why the product quality seeingly continues to degrade, even though there are new units coming out.) ( Why Specialist games are not supported.)( Why are games that were put out by this companay reduced to OP and some off the wall system was pushed to the forefront that no one plays and has no interest in at the cost of a whole range of games?)( Why the range continues to be skewared to FOM armies, and not a general consensus of consistant support for all of the ranges at the same time.)(Why do new armies have to be baithed in the blood of virgin space nuns, and who thought that was going to be a good idea to bring in new players.)
etc..etc..etc..


Like I said, SOME. Make no mistake, I was a solid fan of a solid product, but after the last year or so?

No. Thanks for the ride, lady!

Whatever the reason, you pick a specific, and let it ride. Do you really need more then a handful? When, "The Hobby" as they put it, starts not being fun, you can either stay for more beatings, or walk out the door.

Me? I choose to take my business elsewhere.

Solorg, sorry, I'm not going to repeat the whole saga, there's enough information on the News forum if you're interested in why people are upset

I've simply presented a possible idea. Theres a lot of complaining on this forum about GW right now, and some of their actions. I'm simply suggesting a way in which people (retailers) could try to bring about change.....

My personal stance, I'm heavily invested in Infinity and MERCS, and I'm looking (tentatively) at Warmachine.....I've already stopped buying GW products. Sure I may play the odd game, but I will play with my current investment...full stop.

The target audience for my idea seem to have decided it's not for them, and like I said, not only do they disagree, but they have no inclination to do anything about their situation.....so, from my perspective they can go jump....their lamentations are as worthless as their will power.

Go look at one of the complaints threads, page upon page of bitching....but not one of those sheep seems willing to stand up and do something to change their plight....so I say good luck to them.

Right now I'm with the GW apologists, and I stand corrected. GW marketing and business practices are NOT foul, they're NOT wrong....why? because they work. GW can throw price rise after price rise, and the market will accept it, because, in general this hobby is full of weak willed, spineless armchair generals, who probably do as much as they can to avoid confrontation and change.

I really, and honestly wish GW all the best. They have found a way to make money that most companies would die for, and they've found a market (generally speaking) that is open to abuse....they'd be stupid NOT to capitalise on it.

How to influence GW

1. Stop buying their products.

2. Stop helping and encouraging other people to use their products.

3. Spend your money on different wargames.

4. Help and encourage other people to join in different games.

5. Write a polite letter to GW customer relations, and tell them what you are doing, and why.

Explain that you have found that GW not only ignores your interests as a veteran GW gamer, it actively works against them by suppression of alternative models (Chapter House, Raging Heroes), information (Beasts of War), slack rules writing, and badly organised release schedule.

What would happen if the online stockists, and independant retailers ALL said, feth you GW, take your product and go jump....all at the same time. No more product sales, no more purchases. In fact, every independant store disallowed the playing of GW games.
You mean, all but one?)

Sorry, I don't feel like putting myself out of business. I'm sure my wife, 5 year old twins, and 2 kids in college also feel this way.

I'll keep running games, and all the people that can't play elsewhere, or find the models, can come game at my store and keep me in business.

Delephont im in complete agreement with you.The latest gw bollocks was imo a massive kick in the face to those who truly love 40k/fantasy,the guys who regularly buy from stores and i don't just mean mini's im talking paints etc too.The only practical way that im able to protest with is by closing my wallet.The new space wolves army my buddy and i were going to sink the best part of £100 into has been shelved.My own grey knight army has also been put on hold and to be honest im relieved.Ive spent the last few days stripping off a whole load of mini's i painted over the last couple of years and have set about doing a better job of them.I as well as most of the people on dakka have a sizeable amount of unpainted stuff that im going to actually bother too paint now instead of constantly buying.OK now im rambling here but my basic idea is this,most of my hobby love is painting and talking about stuff on dakka and for now that will surfice.I don't know if me not buying for a time will in any way effect gw but ill wait and see,if enough people do the same im sure a compromise can be reached i.e don't rip off loyal supporters.

mikhaila wrote:What would happen if the online stockists, and independant retailers ALL said, feth you GW, take your product and go jump....all at the same time. No more product sales, no more purchases. In fact, every independant store disallowed the playing of GW games.
You mean, all but one?)

Sorry, I don't feel like putting myself out of business. I'm sure my wife, 5 year old twins, and 2 kids in college also feel this way.

I'll keep running games, and all the people that can't play elsewhere, or find the models, can come game at my store and keep me in business.

AT LAST......that's exactly the feedback I was looking for. You don't need to agree with me, but just having the conversation sheds so much light on the true situation!

As a retailer, even with the price hikes, and the restriction on where you can sell their products, you still end up making money! Sure, I guess you can't make as MUCH money, but things arn't so bad that you would consider taking drastic action.

Thank you, thank you, thank you......so in reality, as far as all this stuff goes, it's a problem for the gamers ONLY.....at least that's the vibe I'm getting. And, as long as those gamers refuse to give up supporting the GW company, they make a rod for their own back...so basically they deserve it.

Phew.....I feel enlightened

Kilkrazy wrote:How to influence GW

1. Stop buying their products.

2. Stop helping and encouraging other people to use their products.

3. Spend your money on different wargames.

4. Help and encourage other people to join in different games.

5. Write a polite letter to GW customer relations, and tell them what you are doing, and why.

I was already kinda doing #1, until the Dark Eldar came out. I think once I have the rest of my army I'm going to check out Infinity proper and start collecting D&D books again.

#2 I try to take advantage of at every opportunity, actually. I hang out in an IRC chat a lot and since the topic of tabletop gaming comes up frequently, I hear people mention 40k, and I'm always one of the first ones to tell them "No, don't do it, it's too expensive and GW are a bunch of dicks." Usually I go into a little more detail than that but that's basically the message. Luckily people are more interested in the FFG RPGs like Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader and aren't talking about the wargame anyway, but I try to discourage them as much as possible.

Delephont wrote:My personal stance, I'm heavily invested in Infinity and MERCS, and I'm looking (tentatively) at Warmachine.....I've already stopped buying GW products.

I play MERCS and a little Infinity.

The prices of both I find really rather high compared to 40K. MERCS minis are £6-7 each. Mini's for Infinity are a little better - £4-7 each. Doesn't compare to well to GW minis which average around the £2 each. (e.g. £1.70 for tacticals, £2.80 for assault marines)

I recently bought two squads of five minis and a rulebook for mercs and it cost about 1/3 the price of my last 2K point 40K army.


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Delephont wrote:The target audience for my idea seem to have decided it's not for them, and like I said, not only do they disagree, but they have no inclination to do anything about their situation.....so, from my perspective they can go jump....their lamentations are as worthless as their will power.

I'm not sure what situation exactly you're referring to.

GW is responding to market pressure and, for the moment, people are still buying enough to keep things going. So, clearly, there aren't that many people who feel that there is a 'situation'. Internet whining is pretty meaningless.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Delephont wrote:I think, as a business strategy, (and I could be wrong) it seems that most retailers see that a certain product is selling well, and naturally try to capitalise on it, in most cases promoting it at the expense of other products.

You have limited resources and opportunity for promotion - you will naturally promote the products that make the most money (either through volume or margin) at the expense of less profitable products. This is the safe option.

Alternatively, you can take the more risky approach which Maelstrom seem to be taking, which is to assume that the big seller will take of itself and concentrate on promoting other product in the hope of selling additional ranges.

When I see GW's current bonehead play, I am reminded of the same debacle that happened to Mongoose, in relation to thier Starship Troopers, and the handling of the whole situation.

"How to bring about change" is to simply keep doing what your doing and keep calling them on thier BS enough that they end up backpeddling and changing thier story five or six times and try to appease the rabid fans with a bunch of hack plays and BS promises.

In the same way as Mongoose regrets thier BS, GW is learning the same lession the hard way.


Too bad Wells is too smart for his own good, because now Kirby has a fall guy when this thing blows up in thier face.


Stop buying GW's stuff and let them flounder. With the way in which they have pretty much just called YOU all out? I say it's only a matter of a week before we see some rumblings from home office.

Scott-S6 wrote:

Delephont wrote:My personal stance, I'm heavily invested in Infinity and MERCS, and I'm looking (tentatively) at Warmachine.....I've already stopped buying GW products.

I play MERCS and a little Infinity.

The prices of both I find really rather high compared to 40K. MERCS minis are £6-7 each. Mini's for Infinity are a little better - £4-7 each. Doesn't compare to well to GW minis which average around the £2 each. (e.g. £1.70 for tacticals, £2.80 for assault marines)

I recently bought two squads of five minis and a rulebook for mercs and it cost about 1/3 the price of my last 2K point 40K army.

I hear this alot.....

Lets start with MERCS.....theres a couple of things that strikes a difference. You can't compare a tactical or assult Marine to a MERCS figure, in either model type, or gameplay...a standard plastic Marine is a drone, its cannon fodder, every MERCS figure is like a character model for that game....so, you'd be more accurate comparing a MERCS mini to a GW Character model, who, with the price rises now starts at about £9.20

The second thing, try playing WH40K with 5 miniatures? yep, you might struggle....now, you bought two squads, which is the equivalent of TWO armies for the MERCS game, I don't know what 2000 point army you bought for £112 but you certainly weren't playing WH40K this century. Just for a breakdown, thats £35 x 2 for the ten METAL miniatures, £12 for the faction game cards, and £30 for the HARD BACK rulebook.....interestingly enough, that's more than you need, as you've bought two armies.

Now, I noticed you didn't add the cost of a rule book with your (curiously cheap) 2K army, or plastic templates....however, thats a moot point....the point I'm trying to make, miniature for miniature, with MERCS £35 buys you all you need, my friend, you can't even get a starter box for that, let alone 5 metal GW character models.....so let's stop being silly here.

If you support GW, more power to you, enjoy, I'm not trying to convince you to leave them, but let's not cloud the issue by comparing Cars with Motorbikes.

I'll leave Infinity, because the story will only be very similar to above.....and if the above point hasn't shown you the error of your comparisons, then nothing will.