Switch Theme:

Former Warsaw Pact Countries form own defense pact against Russia  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

Now this is interesting:

As my grandpap would say (in one of five languages): "Poland yea!!!"

http://finance.townhall.com/columnists/georgefriedman/2011/05/20/the_nato_of_east_europe_shuns_us
With the Palestinians demonstrating and the International Monetary Fund in turmoil, it would seem odd to focus this week on something called the Visegrad Group. But this is not a frivolous choice. What the Visegrad Group decided to do last week will, I think, resonate for years, long after the alleged attempted rape by Dominique Strauss-Kahn is forgotten and long before the Israeli-Palestinian issue is resolved. The obscurity of the decision to most people outside the region should not be allowed to obscure its importance.

The region is Europe — more precisely, the states that had been dominated by the Soviet Union. The Visegrad Group, or V4, consists of four countries — Poland, Slovakia, the Czech Republic and Hungary — and is named after two 14th century meetings held in Visegrad Castle in present-day Hungary of leaders of the medieval kingdoms of Poland, Hungary and Bohemia. The group was reconstituted in 1991 in post-Cold War Europe as the Visegrad Three (at that time, Slovakia and the Czech Republic were one). The goal was to create a regional framework after the fall of Communism. This week the group took an interesting new turn.



(click here to enlarge image)
On May 12, the Visegrad Group announced the formation of a “battle group” under the command of Poland. The battle group would be in place by 2016 as an independent force and would not be part of NATO command. In addition, starting in 2013, the four countries would begin military exercises together under the auspices of the NATO Response Force.

Since the fall of the Soviet Union, the primary focus of all of the Visegrad nations had been membership in the European Union and NATO. Their evaluation of their strategic position was threefold. First, they felt that the Russian threat had declined if not dissipated following the fall of the Soviet Union. Second, they felt that their economic future was with the European Union. Third, they believed that membership in NATO, with strong U.S. involvement, would protect their strategic interests. Of late, their analysis has clearly been shifting.

First, Russia has changed dramatically since the Yeltsin years. It has increased its power in the former Soviet sphere of influence substantially, and in 2008 it carried out an effective campaign against Georgia. Since then it has also extended its influence in other former Soviet states. The Visegrad members’ underlying fear of Russia, built on powerful historical recollection, has become more intense. They are both the front line to the former Soviet Union and the countries that have the least confidence that the Cold War is simply an old memory.

Second, the infatuation with Europe, while not gone, has frayed. The ongoing economic crisis, now focused again on Greece, has raised two questions: whether Europe as an entity is viable and whether the reforms proposed to stabilize Europe represent a solution for them or primarily for the Germans. It is not, by any means, that they have given up the desire to be Europeans, nor that they have completely lost faith in the European Union as an institution and an idea. Nevertheless, it would be unreasonable to expect that these countries would not be uneasy about the direction that Europe was taking. If one wants evidence, look no further than the unease with which Warsaw and Prague are deflecting questions about the eventual date of their entry into the Eurozone. Both are the strongest economies in Central Europe, and neither is enthusiastic about the euro.

Finally, there are severe questions as to whether NATO provides a genuine umbrella of security to the region and its members. The NATO strategic concept, which was drawn up in November 2010, generated substantial concern on two scores. First, there was the question of the degree of American commitment to the region, considering that the document sought to expand the alliance’s role in non-European theaters of operation. For example, the Americans pledged a total of one brigade to the defense of Poland in the event of a conflict, far below what Poland thought necessary to protect the North European Plain. Second, the general weakness of European militaries meant that, willingness aside, the ability of the Europeans to participate in defending the region was questionable. Certainly, events in Libya, where NATO had neither a singular political will nor the military participation of most of its members, had to raise doubts. It was not so much the wisdom of going to war but the inability to create a coherent strategy and deploy adequate resources that raised questions of whether NATO would be any more effective in protecting the Visegrad nations.

There is another consideration. Germany’s commitment to both NATO and the EU has been fraying. The Germans and the French split on the Libya question, with Germany finally conceding politically but unwilling to send forces. Libya might well be remembered less for the fate of Moammar Gadhafi than for the fact that this was the first significant strategic break between Germany and France in decades. German national strategy has been to remain closely aligned with France in order to create European solidarity and to avoid Franco-German tensions that had roiled Europe since 1871. This had been a centerpiece of German foreign policy, and it was suspended, at least temporarily.

The Germans obviously are struggling to shore up the European Union and questioning precisely how far they are prepared to go in doing so. There are strong political forces in Germany questioning the value of the EU to Germany, and with every new wave of financial crises requiring German money, that sentiment becomes stronger. In the meantime, German relations with Russia have become more important to Germany. Apart from German dependence on Russian energy, Germany has investment opportunities in Russia. The relationship with Russia is becoming more attractive to Germany at the same time that the relationship to NATO and the EU has become more problematic.

For all of the Visegrad countries, any sense of a growing German alienation from Europe and of a growing German-Russian economic relationship generates warning bells. Before the Belarusian elections there was hope in Poland that pro-Western elements would defeat the least unreformed regime in the former Soviet Union. This didn’t happen. Moreover, pro-Western elements have done nothing to solidify in Moldova or break the now pro-Russian government in Ukraine. Uncertainty about European institutions and NATO, coupled with uncertainty about Germany’s attention, has caused a strategic reconsideration — not to abandon NATO or the EU, of course, nor to confront the Russians, but to prepare for all eventualities.

It is in this context that the decision to form a Visegradian battle group must be viewed. Such an independent force, a concept generated by the European Union as a European defense plan, has not generated much enthusiasm or been widely implemented. The only truly robust example of an effective battle group is the Nordic Battle Group, but then that is not surprising. The Nordic countries share the same concerns as the Visegrad countries — the future course of Russian power, the cohesiveness of Europe and the commitment of the United States.

In the past, the Visegrad countries would have been loath to undertake anything that felt like a unilateral defense policy. Therefore, the decision to do this is significant in and of itself. It represents a sense of how these countries evaluate the status of NATO, the U.S. attention span, European coherence and Russian power. It is not the battle group itself that is significant but the strategic decision of these powers to form a sub-alliance, if you will, and begin taking responsibility for their own national security. It is not what they expected or wanted to do, but it is significant that they felt compelled to begin moving in this direction.

Just as significant is the willingness of Poland to lead this military formation and to take the lead in the grouping as a whole. Poland is the largest of these countries by far and in the least advantageous geographical position. The Poles are trapped between the Germans and the Russians. Historically, when Germany gets close to Russia, Poland tends to suffer. It is not at that extreme point yet, but the Poles do understand the possibilities. In July, the Poles will be assuming the EU presidency in one of the union’s six-month rotations. The Poles have made clear that one of their main priorities will be Europe’s military power. Obviously, little can happen in Europe in six months, but this clearly indicates where Poland’s focus is.

The militarization of the V4 runs counter to its original intent but is in keeping with the geopolitical trends in the region. Some will say this is over-reading on my part or an overreaction on the part of the V4, but it is neither. For the V4, the battle group is a modest response to emerging patterns in the region, which STRATFOR had outlined in its2011 Annual Forecast. As for my reading, I regard the new patterns not as a minor diversion from the main pattern but as a definitive break in the patterns of the post-Cold War world. In my view, the post-Cold War world ended in 2008, with the financial crisis and the Russo-Georgian war. We are in a new era, as yet unnamed, and we are seeing the first breaks in the post-Cold War pattern.

I have argued in previous articles and books that there is a divergent interest between the European countries on the periphery of Russia and those farther west, particularly Germany. For the countries on the periphery, there is a perpetual sense of insecurity, generated not only by Russian power compared to their own but also by uncertainty as to whether the rest of Europe would be prepared to defend them in the event of Russian actions. The V4 and the other countries south of them are not as sanguine about Russian intentions as others farther away are. Perhaps they should be, but geopolitical realities drive consciousness and insecurity and distrust defines this region.

I had also argued that an alliance only of the four northernmost countries is insufficient. I used the concept “Intermarium,” which had first been raised after World War I by a Polish leader, Joseph Pilsudski, who understood that Germany and the Soviet Union would not be permanently weak and that Poland and the countries liberated from the Hapsburg Empire would have to be able to defend themselves and not have to rely on France or Britain.

Pilsudski proposed an alliance stretching from the Baltic Sea to the Black Sea and encompassing the countries to the west of the Carpathians — Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Romania and Bulgaria. In some formulations, this would include Yugoslavia, Finland and the Baltics. The point was that Poland had to have allies, that no one could predict German and Soviet strength and intentions, and that the French and English were too far away to help. The only help Poland could have would be an alliance of geography — countries with no choice.

It follows from this that the logical evolution here is the extension of the Visegrad coalition. At the May 12 defense ministers’ meeting, there was discussion of inviting Ukraine to join in. Twenty or even 10 years ago, that would have been a viable option. Ukraine had room to maneuver. But the very thing that makes the V4 battle group necessary — Russian power — limits what Ukraine can do. The Russians are prepared to give Ukraine substantial freedom to maneuver, but that does not include a military alliance with the Visegrad countries.

An alliance with Ukraine would provide significant strategic depth. It is unlikely to happen. That means that the alliance must stretch south, to include Romania and Bulgaria. The low-level tension between Hungary and Romania over the status of Hungarians in Romania makes that difficult, but if the Hungarians can live with the Slovaks, they can live with the Romanians. Ultimately, the interesting question is whether Turkey can be persuaded to participate in this, but that is a question far removed from Turkish thinking now. History will have to evolve quite a bit for this to take place. For now, the question is Romania and Bulgaria.

But the decision of the V4 to even propose a battle group commanded by Poles is one of those small events that I think will be regarded as a significant turning point. However we might try to trivialize it and place it in a familiar context, it doesn’t fit. It represents a new level of concern over an evolving reality — the power of Russia, the weakness of Europe and the fragmentation of NATO. This is the last thing the Visegrad countries wanted to do, but they have now done the last thing they wanted to do. That is what is significant.

Events in the Middle East and Europe’s economy are significant and of immediate importance. However, sometimes it is necessary to recognize things that are not significant yet but will be in 10 years. I believe this is one of those events. It is a punctuation mark in European history.

Visegrad: A New European Military Force is republished with permission of STRATFOR


-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Ancient Chaos Terminator





Deep in the Woods

I say Good for them. Take charge of your own defense. Do everything you can to look after yourself.

"I have traveled through the Realm of Death and brought back novelty pencils"
 GamesWorkshop wrote:
And I would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for you meddling kids!

Oh, somewhere in this favored land the sun is shining bright;
the band is playing somewhere and somewhere hearts are light,and somewhere men are laughing, and somewhere children shout but there is no joy in Mudville — mighty Casey has struck out. 
   
Made in gb
Renegade Inquisitor de Marche






Elephant Graveyard

I want them to call it the Warsaw Pact Pact.
You don't tend to hear about it these days but Russia does seem to be a lot more dangerous than the media seems to suggest.

Dakka Bingo! By Ouze
"You are the best at flying things"-Kanluwen
"Further proof that Purple is a fething brilliant super villain " -KingCracker
"Purp.. Im pretty sure I have a gun than can reach you...."-Nicorex
"That's not really an apocalypse. That's just Europe."-Grakmar
"almost as good as winning free cake at the tea drinking contest for an Englishman." -Reds8n
Seal up your lips and give no words but mum.
Equip, Reload. Do violence.
Watch for Gerry. 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

Indeed. Might I add, here's a group of countries that seem perfectly suited to develop and utilize the CRASSUS ARMORED ASSAULT TRANSPORT.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in gb
Renegade Inquisitor de Marche






Elephant Graveyard

CRASSUS ARMOURED ASSAULT TRANSPORT usage approved!

Dakka Bingo! By Ouze
"You are the best at flying things"-Kanluwen
"Further proof that Purple is a fething brilliant super villain " -KingCracker
"Purp.. Im pretty sure I have a gun than can reach you...."-Nicorex
"That's not really an apocalypse. That's just Europe."-Grakmar
"almost as good as winning free cake at the tea drinking contest for an Englishman." -Reds8n
Seal up your lips and give no words but mum.
Equip, Reload. Do violence.
Watch for Gerry. 
   
Made in gb
Anti-Armour Yaogat





Stoke-on-trent uk

Can someone explain the whole crassus armored assault transport thing?

Red corsairs -2000 points
Empire army -2000 points
Cygnar-15pts


======Begin Dakka Geek Code======
DR:90-S---GMB+I+Pwhfb09++D++A++/h WD362R+T(M)DM+
======End Dakka Geek Code======

psn-blackclaw12-add me and mention that you're from dakka.

 
   
Made in gb
Renegade Inquisitor de Marche






Elephant Graveyard

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/369671.page
There is another one in Off-topic about the bible being forged. Check about 2/3rds of the way down page 3 for some brilliant derailing.
This one http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/369784.page

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/05/20 16:20:20


Dakka Bingo! By Ouze
"You are the best at flying things"-Kanluwen
"Further proof that Purple is a fething brilliant super villain " -KingCracker
"Purp.. Im pretty sure I have a gun than can reach you...."-Nicorex
"That's not really an apocalypse. That's just Europe."-Grakmar
"almost as good as winning free cake at the tea drinking contest for an Englishman." -Reds8n
Seal up your lips and give no words but mum.
Equip, Reload. Do violence.
Watch for Gerry. 
   
Made in ca
Calculating Commissar






Kamloops, B.C.

In Soviet Union 2.0, CRASSUS ARMOURED ASSAULT TRANSPORTs you!

Dakka Code:
DR:80+S++G++M++B++I+Pw40k00+D+++A++/areWD-R++T(M)DM+

U WAN SUM P&M BLOG? MARINES, GUARD, DE, NIDS AND ORKS, OH MY! IT'S GR8 M8, I R8 8/8 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

Touche'!

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges




United States

So this guy fears Russian military action against the rest of Europe?

Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. 
   
Made in de
Stalwart Veteran Guard Sergeant






Good for them on taking charge of their own military affairs like that, kudos.

As for the comments regarding Germany and the EU, that stuff is dead on. As someone who currently lives in Germany and discusses this topic a lot with Germans, I get to see a lot of this sentiment first hand. The German economy is the strongest in Europe, period. The fact they keep getting stuck with the bill for all of these smaller countries who don't do things correctly (a major German pet-peeve) is really riling them up and getting them seriously questioning the nature of the EU. Well, I will go a step further, a lot of the Germans I talk to arn't just questioning it, but actively critising it such a way as it is easy to see they want it gone.

I give the EU 10 more years, tops. The Brits and the Germans don't want it anymore and the French were never really terribly interested. Once the Germans close their check books and head home, the dominoes are going to fall.

A soldier will fight long and hard for a bit of colored ribbon

W/D/L
44 1 3 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




Manchester UK

Good for them. The Russians would still crush them, mind.

 Cheesecat wrote:
 purplefood wrote:
I find myself agreeing with Albatross far too often these days...

I almost always agree with Albatross, I can't see why anyone wouldn't.


 Crazy_Carnifex wrote:

Okay, so the male version of "Cougar" is now officially "Albatross".
 
   
Made in gb
Courageous Grand Master




-

I'm surprised people still rate the Russkie military, especially when you consider some of the post Cold war horror stories. Only a few years ago they couldn't even look after their Nukes properly.

"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd 
   
Made in us
Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges




United States

Manstein wrote: The Brits and the Germans don't want it anymore and the French were never really terribly interested.


According to opinion polling done during the lead in to EU integration the French public supported the move at a rate of about 65%. That is fairly significant interest.

Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. 
   
Made in de
Stalwart Veteran Guard Sergeant






According to opinion polling done during the lead in to EU integration the French public supported the move at a rate of about 65%. That is fairly significant interest.


We all know polls are games, but, I will bite anyway.

The poll you refer to shows only tacit support at best, it wasn't but a few years ago that it was the French spear heading the resistance against a EU constitution. French history comes down decidedly on the side of "meh" when it comes to the EU.

A soldier will fight long and hard for a bit of colored ribbon

W/D/L
44 1 3 
   
Made in us
Savage Minotaur




Chicago

I'm sure the Russians will invade Poland in their newly built CRASSUS ARMOURED ASSAULT TRANSPORTS, while everyone will be BLAMING THE VICTIM for not defending themselves.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/05/21 21:30:13


 
   
Made in us
Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges




United States

Manstein wrote:
We all know polls are games, but, I will bite anyway.


Well, no, people who don't understand statistics (most people) believe that polls are games. The rest of us understand that they're a particular type of information which can be utilized to aid in understanding the desires of the relevant subjects. They're sort of like anecdotes in that regard, only much easier to rate according to veracity.

Manstein wrote:
The poll you refer to shows only tacit support at best...


How can support be tacit when its specifically given phrase in the form of responses to questions?

Manstein wrote:
...it wasn't but a few years ago that it was the French spear heading the resistance against a EU constitution. French history comes down decidedly on the side of "meh" when it comes to the EU.


They were also the second nation to ratify the Lisbon Treaty, and generally supportive of the Maastricht Treaty. Calling the nation ambivalent towards the EU is not reflected by the French role in that body, or their continued accession of its various principle agreements.

Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. 
   
Made in ca
Calculating Commissar






Kamloops, B.C.

Karon wrote:I'm sure the Russians will invade Poland in their newly built CRASSUS ARMOURED ASSAULT TRANSPORTS, while everyone will be BLAMING THE VICTIM for not defending themselves.


Eh. The Russian CRASSUS ARMOURED ASSAULT TRANSPORTS are no match for Poland's state-of-the-art defensive network of Space Corridors and Industrial Towers from that one company that makes Space Corridors and Industrial Towers.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/05/22 01:10:05


Dakka Code:
DR:80+S++G++M++B++I+Pw40k00+D+++A++/areWD-R++T(M)DM+

U WAN SUM P&M BLOG? MARINES, GUARD, DE, NIDS AND ORKS, OH MY! IT'S GR8 M8, I R8 8/8 
   
Made in gb
Joined the Military for Authentic Experience






Nuremberg

Interesting.
I would contest the German view that "countries" didn't do things properly. From my viewing, it seems much more like private banks did what they wanted in a lot of nations and were not regulated by governments in any of these nations, and now the economies which were most vunerable are collapsing. Which is not to say there weren't problems and inefficiencies in many of the peripheral economies too, but the effective crippling of my home nation under massive private debt to protect banks, most of whom are not in the country, is extremely irritating, and even more irritating is the idea that my "country" is responsible for this injustice.
A bit off topic but I felt I had to put that out there.
I say good on them for taking national defense seriously though. And it's sensible to be skeptical of the stability of the Eurozone, as defaults and debt restructuring in peripheral nations are practically inevitable and their trust in the institutions is possibly irrepairably damaged.

   
Made in us
Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw





Buzzard's Knob

Fine, they can form their little alliance just in time for WWIV.

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGHHHHH!!!!!!!!!! 
   
Made in gb
Renegade Inquisitor de Marche






Elephant Graveyard

warpcrafter wrote:Fine, they can form their little alliance just in time for WWIV.

Did we miss a WW here?
Was i asleep?
I miss things when i am asleep... important things...

Dakka Bingo! By Ouze
"You are the best at flying things"-Kanluwen
"Further proof that Purple is a fething brilliant super villain " -KingCracker
"Purp.. Im pretty sure I have a gun than can reach you...."-Nicorex
"That's not really an apocalypse. That's just Europe."-Grakmar
"almost as good as winning free cake at the tea drinking contest for an Englishman." -Reds8n
Seal up your lips and give no words but mum.
Equip, Reload. Do violence.
Watch for Gerry. 
   
Made in us
Secret Force Behind the Rise of the Tau




USA

purplefood wrote:
warpcrafter wrote:Fine, they can form their little alliance just in time for WWIV.

Did we miss a WW here?
Was i asleep?
I miss things when i am asleep... important things...





   
Made in us
Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator




Ephrata, PA

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:I'm surprised people still rate the Russkie military, especially when you consider some of the post Cold war horror stories. Only a few years ago they couldn't even look after their Nukes properly.


Hey man, zombies don't have brains either but they can still kill people...

Bane's P&M Blog, pop in and leave a comment
3100+

 feeder wrote:
Frazz's mind is like a wiener dog in a rabbit warren. Dark, twisting tunnels, and full of the certainty that just around the next bend will be the quarry he seeks.

 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




Manchester UK

It's arguable that WWII was actually WWIII, for reasons that are far too off-topic to go into here - though I suspect that Warpcrafter is probably talking about the war against international Jewry, or some other equally sane concept...

 Cheesecat wrote:
 purplefood wrote:
I find myself agreeing with Albatross far too often these days...

I almost always agree with Albatross, I can't see why anyone wouldn't.


 Crazy_Carnifex wrote:

Okay, so the male version of "Cougar" is now officially "Albatross".
 
   
Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

Sure, Russia might walk over Poland in a traditional conflict. They did that to Finland too...


For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
Made in gb
Renegade Inquisitor de Marche






Elephant Graveyard

Message for the day: Don't f**k with Finland.

Dakka Bingo! By Ouze
"You are the best at flying things"-Kanluwen
"Further proof that Purple is a fething brilliant super villain " -KingCracker
"Purp.. Im pretty sure I have a gun than can reach you...."-Nicorex
"That's not really an apocalypse. That's just Europe."-Grakmar
"almost as good as winning free cake at the tea drinking contest for an Englishman." -Reds8n
Seal up your lips and give no words but mum.
Equip, Reload. Do violence.
Watch for Gerry. 
   
 
Forum Index » Off-Topic Forum
Go to: